Point taken, but I think big zoo is over preparing for control and small aggro, because traditional Zoo is struggling against those archetypes now, which is why no one has fun playing Zoo anymore. Marverick is more fundamentally prepared to play Grove/Fires, and benefits from it to a much greater degree, and has a better matchup against a lot of deck right now than any build of Zoo.
I have no doubt that a player with skill can still win with the deck, but the odds just seem to be against Grove/Fires, like, when you're getting ported and wasted by Goblins or D&T and you are left with one or two Groves and a bunch of 1/1s. The strategy that should have won the match-up kicks you in the nuts.
Also, there was a time when a deck had to top 8 to be considered impressive. Sure, in a huge tourney, top 16 is pretty impressive, but I see way to many instances lately where top 16s are used to justify pretty average decks.
Remember, it's only a game, a game dominated by Goblins.
I think it's interesting how Zoo has responded to recent meta shifts. Big Zoo was popular, then MM shows up. Format slows down, Zoo speeds up. MM leaves, format speeds up, Zoo slows down?
I'm all for stealing ideas from Maverick, it's a deck that continues to prove itself. I think taking the Punishing Maverick list from the GP and giving it some extra reach and agression could be a promising direction for Zoo. I just don't have much experience with Maverick (something I intend to correct soon), so I'm not sure what parts of their creature base could be cut in favor of more aggressive creatures and burn.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
Zoo and Mavericks are way more different than you think. While Zoo is just trying to be as fast as possible, Mavericks is more comparable to Death & Taxes, as an aggro deck that has loads of hate bears, tricks and answers to pretty much everything your opponents can throw at you.Originally Posted by Richard Cheese
Opponent goes turn one Cursecatcher? Sure, drop Mother of Runes and win. City of Brass- Putrid Imp? Well, then turn two GSZ into Scavenging Ooze. Turn one USea and Ponder? Can't hurt to turn two GSZ into Gaddock Teeg, just in case. Show and Tell- Emrakul? Well, I'll drop my KotR and search up the Karakas. Zoo is way different. It doesn't want to care what the opponent is doing.
And trying to add more aggressive creatures to Mavericks would be pretty impossible. Note that the best Maverick lists don't even play Tarmogoyf any more. The rest plays one copy. What on earth should make a deck that not even mighty Goyf is good enough for?
Except that Big Zoo isn't trying to win as fast as possible...
I'm just looking for something that's more aggro than Maverick, but still with some late game, like so:
Code:Early------------------Mid------------------Late ^ ^ ^ Zoo Big Zoo Maverick
I guess it's a "have your cake and eat it too" thing. Of course there's always the chance of getting the worst of both worlds, but I thought it at least sounded like an avenue to explore.
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
I don't want to see Zoo pick up Grove/Fires en mass, for somewhat obvious reasons, but I still think it weakens the mana-base and the general speed of Zoo's kill enough to fail at it's intended purpose enough for me to maintain a *slight* winning record. I'd still be more scared of Maverick top to bottom, or a traditional Zoo list with a skilled pilot (with one or two cards to bring in against me post board).
BTW, I think your chart does say it all, as to how one should compare Zoo/BigZoo/Mav, but Big Zoo has to streeetch itself in order to be in the middle while the others fall comfortably in their niche.
But to be fair, if the deck could impose a of fear of using Wasteland to destroy anything but Grove, like Maverick does, it protects your other lands a bit, damn it.
regardless of my joy in playing against good old Zoo, it was at it's peak when it was cleaning house of Goblins as the aggro deck to beat, and as much as the deck got it's well deserved hype, other decks built their decks with zoo in mind and changed their playstyle, new decks were made, etc. Ultimately, it seems traditional Zoo has taken over for Goblins as the most hated aggro deck in the format, so when Zoo has an anti-combo SB like it should, it lacks flexibility against the field.
edit - Big Zoo is kind of a different deck altogether though, and I shouldn't neglect to recognize it's viability. Nonetheless, aggro Zoo isn't a complete steaming pile of garbage. What's the ideal Zoo sideboard for the current meta? Let the Zoo thread return to it's regular banter!
Last edited by Red Army; 11-05-2011 at 02:06 AM.
Remember, it's only a game, a game dominated by Goblins.
Hi, played n a local tournament today and went 1-3 drop. I think the deck was better than the result shows. I played against Tempo Thress (0-2), Goblin (2-0), Canadian with Snapcaster (1-2) and Eva Green (1-2). After this lost I drop. I played today this list
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
1 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
2 Loam Lion
2 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Grim Lavamancer
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Lightning Helix
4 Path to Exile
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fireblast
SB:
3 Volcanic Fallout
2 Ancient Grudge
4 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pyroblast
4 Mindbreak Trap
I think Tempo Thress MU is a pretty tight. It should be favourable for zoo but with bad draws it can turn to Tempo Thress.
1 Round (Tempo Thress): I play against my friend who borrowed my deck so we know what we are playing against. 1 game: I got flooded and see only couple Tarmogoyfs which are easy to counter. 2 game: I only draw two lands which got wasted. (0-2)
2 Round (Goblin): 1 game: I only have one Lavamancer but lots of burn!!! 2 game: My opponent mulls to 5. (2-0)
3 Round (Canadian with Snapcaster): 1 game: My opp mulls to 5 and I race over him. 2 game: I mull to 6 and keep a little greedy hand with 2 Nacatl, fetch, Path, Bolt, Lynx. My land got wasted and I don't recover soon enough. 3 game: I keep hand with 2 Chain, 3 Lands, Path, Pyroblast and hope that I draw creatures. He plays Dreadnought after I have used my Path to Delver. I only saw two Lavamancer. (1-2) It's irritating to lose after you have leaded 1-0
4 Round (Eva Green): This is not my favourite MU especially when I'm not playing Sylvan Libraries. 1 game: My opp sweeps my bord and wastes my lands. My lifepoints are under 10 after I stabilize and start to race first with Lavamancer. Then I draw plains and play 2 Loam Lions and Lynx (not at the same time). My opp draws like 10 lands in a row and I race him with herd of 1/1. 2 game: The same thing like game 1 but now I'm at 1 life. I but my opp from 15 to 6 until he plays scavenging ooze and finally wins the game. There were like three turns this situation that I was at 1 life, I had Lynx and three fetches on the taple. I also had Helix in my hand but no red mana source. 3 game: I have Lynx and Qasali and opp plays Virtue's Ruin. Then I play Lynx and Loam and opp plays Virtue's Ruin again. I finally lose to Tombstalker because I kill Tarmogoyf instead of it. (1-2)
Matches were pretty tight. Little more luck and I would be playing at top-4 at this moment. Tempo Thress should be good MU for zoo, eventhough Mongoose makes it harder, but today odds wasn't on my side. I think I'm going to play next time Sylvan Library. It will help with TA, Eva Green and Maverick. I'm also considering playing more Lightning Helix because the aggro meta. Allthough I have liked Fireblast a lot. I also liked KotR today when I draw it.
I think zoo was pretty good in today's meta but unfortunately magic is also fortunegame
It's been awhile since I sleeved up Zoo in Legacy; I worked hard over the past few months collection the cards to finish my Junk deck, and thus spent a lot of time running that list. So while I don't know how the deck flies in the "current" meta, I've got a good handle on Zoo's matchups and strengths/weaknesses.
It's hard to make the call on which Zoo to run, but I've personally always preferred the faster versions. And while Chalice of the Void and Counterbalance are staying down, and RUG Tempo is still peaking out in Top 8's, I think it's still a perfectly fine time to be running "Fast Zoo". One card I've missed playing that Modern reminded me of is Steppe Lynx, and it inspired me to try it out again. Something like this is where I would start rebuilding if I was going to a tournament tomorrow:
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Goblin Guide
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Qasali Pridemage
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
1 Fireblast
3 Path to Exile
2 Sylvan Library
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Windswept Heath
1 Scalding Tarn
3 Taiga
3 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
So yeah, a greedy 1-drop Zoo list pretty much. I know this list is a bit on the extreme side, and I assure you I haven't tested it in the slightest, but it's pretty close to where I left off before I switched to Junk after the GP in Providence. Basically, the benefit is that you can rush you opponents with consistently frightening pressure every game. The weakness is obviously that you are a bit softer to the midrange and control strategies if they stabilize.
The manabase might be a bit greedy, I usually like having basics in my deck, but I want to try beating Stifle/Wasteland with just more fetches and nonbasics. Because of the pressure we drop in the early turns, and the fact that all but two lands can produce Red, RUG should not be a terrible matchup. Just don't get Dazed.
Sideboard should address Stoneblade, for starters, as well as the other Control variations out there. 3x Surgical Extraction or possibly Fairie Macabre might be a good call, as they are free and can deal with Dredge and Reanimator (primarily), while still being relevant elsewhere. I would also consider 1-2 Scavenging Ooze in the 75, as they win Goyf and KOTR wars and give you something to do after you curve out and drop you hand. Fighting combo is also relevant, as usual, but that's never an easy matchup. We'll rely on 4x Red Blasts to try and fight them. So a SB something like this might be decent:
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Path to Exile
2 Choke
Probably too narrow at the moment, just throwing out ideas here. Either way, I'm psyched to run some Taigas again!
Against RUG, playing around all their early game isn't such a bad deal. If they have a nut draw then it's hard to come back, but the incrimental advantage you gain over stranding their Stifles/Dazes/Fire-Ices in their hand means that when the pivetal turn comes, you can either wipe their board or dump your hand and take over the board. They rely on trading their cards for yours in the early game, and in the late your cards are better
Hi, I was also considering Scavenging Ooze to MD, but after rethinking it's so manaintensive and need lots of green mana to work. That's why I think Scavenging Ooze is better in Big Zoo.
After Mental Misstep was banned nobody has played Blue Zoo. Now I have been thinking could we replace Mental Misstep and play Snapcaster Mage in that slot? I have this kind of list in my mind
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Noble Hierarch
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Tarmogoyf
4 Wild Nacatl
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Karakas
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Plateau
1 Savannah
1 Taiga
2 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
I think Scavenging Ooze could work well in this deck. Any thoughts?
I'd rather play Bant Aggro than that list.
Zoo needs to play like Sligh nowdays. Lynx, Goblin Guide, Nacatl, Tarmogoyf, Price of Progress and a couple Sylvan Library to hold things togheter. That's the way to go imo.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
^+1
Zoo needs to be all it can be. Doesn't matter what walks alll over it, it's adaptable and right now it needs to be fast and consistent to fare well in a diverse metagame
this is what I want to play in a tourney in 2 Weeks (40-60 People).
1 Forest
1 Mountain
1 Plains
3 Plateau
4 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
4 Arid Mesa
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Steppe Lynx
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Goblin Guide
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
2 Sylvan Library
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast
Well, my plan is rather simple, so I won't go further in detail ;) My Problem is my Sideboard. It is a general Problem that I am really bad at constructing and boarding, but ontop I have not much experience with this deck -.- Meta is rather diverse, but some Decks show up every time:
-Dredge (Played every time against them)
-GW
-UGx (Canadian, TA, NORUG...)
-Merfolk
-Reanimator (don't know which impact Graveborn had)
-Combo (DDFT, TES, SpiralTide, SnT...)
atm my Board looks like this
4 REB (against everything with Blue^^)
3 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge, Reanimator, KotR...)
3 Krosan Grip (Equips, CB+Top, Moat...)
and from there on I have no clue^^
Nice list. But I'd go for +1 Price of Progress and -1 Fireblast main deck. PoP is just gold against GW and BUG/RUG stuff. Fireblast is a nice finisher, but playing 3 might be overkill.
As for sideboarding, I've been playing with this, lately:
4 Pyroblast
2 Krosan Grip
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Mindbreak Trap
3 Pithing Needle
Pithing Needle is tech against KotR, Jace TMS, Pernicious Deed and other stuff.
As for boarding, I'd go for something like this:
Dredge: +2 Sugical Extraction, +1 Tormod's Crypt, -3 Price of Progress. Dredge works with 14~15 Lands at maximum, and usually goes off with 1~2 lands. Price of Progress would be a Shock for 2 mana, janky.
GW: +2 Pithing Needle, -1 Fireblast, -1 Tarmogoyf. Steppe Lynx and Goblin Guide is golden in this matchup. They'll push lots of damage, as you aim your fire to their Ramp (aka, Birds of Paradise, Noble Hierarch, Dryad Arbor). Pithing Needle on Maze of Ith, Knight of the Reliquary and Scavenging Ooze is nice.
UGx:
-RUG Tempo: Just board nothing. Just burn their threats and watch out for Stifle on fetchlands. Our threat density is much higher, and burn can keep them off damage.
-BUG/Team America: +3 Pithing Needle, -2 Steppe Lynx -1 Grim Lavamancer. Pithing Needle on Deed and Jace TMS is very, very nice.
-Bant Aggro: Just play it like it was GW Maverick.
Merfolk: Cakewalk, lol. I'd board like this: +4 Pyroblast -4 Path to Exile. If you're having trouble, you can add some Pithing Needles for Mutavaults and AEther Vial.
Reanimator: This matchup might be very hard. Burn their face as much as you can, because if they use Reanimate, they'll set themselves at 10~12 life. Again, Steppe Lynx is golden. I'd board like this: +2 Surgical Extraction +1 Tormod's Crypr -3 Grim Lavamancer.
Combo: This might be impossible, lol. Just make sure you add a fast clock. Against most Storm Combo I'd board like this: +4 Pyroblast, +3 Mindbreak Trap, +3 Pithing Needle -4 Path to Exile -3 Grim Lavamancer -3 Price of Progress. Pyroblast targets must be ALWAYS: Merchant Scroll, High Tide, Brainstorm, Ponder. Mindbreak trap is weak, but might buy you a turn or two. Pithing Needle against DDFT is hugh (naming Top, of course) or against Spiral Tide naming Candelabra of Tawnos (I really doubt someone will have this).
Hope it helped :3
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Thanks for the quickie Sideboard post Vandalize, that was well put.
I do agree that Legacy Zoo decks are best when they are built like a Sligh deck, rather than resembling a faster Bant Aggro deck. There are many cases where Zoo wants to run Hierarch (like in Modern Boom/Bust), but I don't think it's where we need to really be right now. I could be wrong here, but I do know that Fast Zoo just feels right, all the time.
I have been tempted to try and build a Legacy list similar to the ChannelFireball Snapcaster list we saw in the Modern portion of Worlds. But I've been running the modern version enough to know that the mana can be ugly sometimes, and Wasteland/Stifle seems pretty preventative at the moment.
What kind of decks do you usually play against?
These results aren't typical, but I've played Big Zoo for almost two years (recently switched to Bant) and won roughly 70-75% of my matches. I've occasionally played Fast Zoo during that same period (and for 6 months prior) and I probably win only 45-50% of my matches. I'm never going back.
The merfolk side is questionable.
I want as much spot removal as possible in the deck when playing against them. PtE is just too good in dealing with their creatures, and though R.E.B./Pyro is a strict upgrade, you should be trying to add more removal to the deck rather than just upgrading it.
In the 'folk matchup, you should probably side out PoP and one other random card and leave the PtE in the deck.
They'll rarely have more than one lands that you can actually hit them for damage with, as most decks aren't running a splash anymore.
"Swiggety Swagtusk, Here comes the Thragtusk!""The last top 8 slot went to the winner of that Death and Taxes mirror, or as I like to call it, the White Supremacy Mirror.
In response to "What's the best replacement for Force of Will?"
@lordofthepit:
My meta is pretty diverse. There is Maverick, U/w blade, Storm, Deadguy, Junk, Grixis Delver, RUG Delver, RUG Visions, Bant, Reanimator, Stax, Aggro Loam, and a few others. When I was running zoo, I was the fastest aggro deck and wanted it to be that way. In a heavier aggro meta, I can imagine big zoo might be better. Its certainly gotten people into top 8s this past year. But as you realized, Bant is really the champ when it comes to midrange Green creature decks. I would just rather run Fast Zoo when it's good and switch to something else when it isn't.
@Vandalize
thx for your post, helped me alot to sort my thoughts =)
@Sideboard
4 Pyroblast / REB
this is easy, they are way too good in too much MU, so 4 Slots are safe
3-4 Crypt (Gravehate)
Something more difficult, cause there are many different options right now. In a deck like FastZoo the Goal of Gravehate is only to slow the opponent a turn or two, cause our clock is so fast.is best designed for that, means Crypt and Extraction or Faery Macabre. Extraction and Faery are like a gun behind your back while you threaten someone. Crypt means laying a loaded gun on the desk in front of you. It forces the opponent to act really carefully. Bad for him that we are fast ;)
3 Stony Silence (Artefacthate)
I thought long about this one compared to Pithing Needle but in the end, Stony Silence is better suited for the Deck. It shuts down every Equip (except Germ for Batterskull -.-), Moxen, Candelabra, Top and Petals and the whole MUD-Deck^^ The examples you brought in for Needle don't really apply for my Meta, Jace is rarely seen (dunno if he is a big Problem for this Deck anyway) and Deed is played T3 and active T4 where I can burn him out pretty simple anyway or would have lost in most cases anyway.
4 Silence (Combohate)
Is it a dumb thought to counter combos by silencing them? Its oncolor and can be played under any circumstances, that can not be said about traps
general question:
Do you bait stifles with hands like land, fetch, burn, burn, creature, creature, creature or do you try to play around it?
One thing worth noting is, that you can bolt the germ before it gets equipped, right?
From my experience, here's how I would rank the three decks (Zoo, Big Zoo, Bant) for each of those matchups (starting from best):
- Maverick: Big Zoo, Zoo, Bant
- U/W Blade: Bant, Big Zoo, Zoo (although the game really comes down to can they stick Batterskull; small Zoo is best if they don't, whereas Bant and Big Zoo can still win even with an active Batterskull).
- Storm: Bant (by a lot), Zoo, Big Zoo
- Deadguy: Zoo, Big Zoo, Bant; removal is king in this matchup, and small Zoo is less prone to getting blown out by Perish
- Junk: Big Zoo, Zoo, Bant
- Grixis Delver: Not sure about this one. I think Big Zoo, Zoo, Bant. Removal seems great here, but small Zoo has a chance of getting Stifle/Wasted out of this matchup. I really like Noble Hierarch here.
- RUG Delver: Big Zoo, Zoo, Bant
- RUG Visions: I have no idea--I've never seen this deck before.
- Bant: I'd rather be Big Zoo than Bant in this matchup, but I think I would rather be Bant than small Zoo. Sticking the biggest creature and drawing removal for their creatures are keys here.
- Reanimator: IMO, Bant has the best Reanimator matchup in the format. As for Big Zoo vs. Zoo, Zoo has the ability to just straight up race Reanimator before they stick a relevant fatty (relevant being Sphinx of the Steel Wind, Blazing Archon, or Elesh Norn, and possibly Iona; usually, you can just race right past a Jin). However, Knight of the Reliquary -> Karakas is the nuts here. If small Zoo runs Knights, I'll give it an advantage over Big Zoo in this matchup. Otherwise, I like Big Zoo (over small Zoo without Knights).
- Stax: I assume you're talking about White Stax here. I'd say Bant/Big Zoo are both great (fewer one-drops), less blowout potential against Tabernacle effects. (If you mean Dragon Stompy, that's almost a bye for Bant and Big Zoo, although better for Bant because of counters. Noble Hierarch/Green Sun's Zenith allows you to play around any for their Moon/Chalice effects.)
- Aggro Loam. I think I like the Zoo decks more than Bant, since they can run more basics and put on a faster clock, especially against the Jund builds where you can kill almost everything with a Bolt. Scavenging Ooze helps Bant a lot though (which some Big Zoo builds run). This also is really dependent on whether they run Chalice of the Void (which kills small Zoo) or Devastating Dreams (where you really wish you had Knight of the Reliquary).
I actually think the presence of Merfolk and Goblins is a great reason to run small Zoo, since you're less likely to get blown out by crap like Submerge/Mind Harness on your fatty or Perish on your entire board.
One thing though with respect to small Zoo. I used to be a big fan of Steppe Lynx for its ability to set up really fast goldfishes and because Loam Lion/Kird Ape didn't really do much. I think I've come around on that. I'd rather have the more consistent 2/3 beaters and probably even Goblin Guide, especially if you can expect a lot of Stifle effects, which make Steppe Lynx really awkward.
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