[Deck] The Rock

[damionblackgear]

To add onto Borealis edit, You can dredge the Loam and the D.Blast, you keep both (no choice to return them via library), put back 1 cards without paying life for the others (provided you've only DRAWN 1 card this turn). Library only wants back what you've DRAWN and doesn't punish you if you haven't DRAWN 2 cards to put back. It just expects back the number you have, or 4 life per.

Simple version - You can't put Dredged cards back. Library wants 2 cards drawn this turn but, doesn't punish you if you've drawn less than 2. It does, however, want the other's back (up to 2) or 4 life per card.

[sdematt]

Rock vs. Reanimator right now on SCG.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Sorry this time could pull it. Mis-boarded myself out of round 1 and mis-played myself out of 2. Wen't x-0 after that until my ride decided to leave... except I scooped to my opponents who were a little more interested in planeswalker points than I was. I blame stake and shake for my condition as I spent most of my time prior and between rounds 0-2 visiting the facilities... along with the other 2 people that went there. I may have also been a bit frustrated with someone successfully trolling me.

Ran the same list from KC.

Round 1 vs Show Eureka

Game 1 he casts Show and Tell - Knight (shown) + Liliana (played my turn) vs, Emrakul.

Boarded out my pulses (don't hit anything), and my Pridemage (mis-poarded). and brought in Teeg, 2 dismember (he showed a couple dryad arbors), and duress.

Game 2 I Thoughtseize and start a clock. He casts Eureka and drops in Form of the Dragon... I have a zenith in hand and 4 lands, a 5/5 knight in play. All of my ways to destroy it are out. I lose.

Game 3 I bring back in the pridemage but forget about the pulses... oops again. I start digging with Library, Land a bird of paradise and decide to use my zenith to get a knight. Next turn He Eurekas again and I'm stuck looking at form + Progenitus. I have a bird and a sword enough land to equip and zenith for 2, and a bob and knight... Bob shows Mystic, I drew Goyf. I figured I was still good if I kill the form since I'd be at 1 after the Progen hit if I drew the mage or the zenith off the top. I equip Bird, swing, and draw Knight. Game over.

Round 2 I play Canadian Thresh.

Game 1 I aim a pulse at his goyf while we're in the early turns (my 4th) leaving Wasteland up for daze... He fetches and I decide to waste his land... with pulse still on the stack... He dazes. Wastes and stifles put me out of the game form there. He has no more creatures though.

Game 2, Not close. I stick bob on turn 1 and he bolts it. I waste him and play library. He bricks on land...

Game 3, We get to a point where he's got a 4/5 goyf with no instant in the yard and I have Dismember. I'm stuck at 2 usable mana (Mox, land, Maze) the entire game (he used one stifle there) so I can't cast the Liliana in my hand and put her to good use. He plays a delver though so I hit that instead. He also decides to Kgrip my mox. I draw, land. So, no choke, no Liliana. Same place. We keep this up (he stifles another fetch) and I finally draw Bog. next turn I draw another land so I make a bad choice and try to kill goyf. He stifles Liliana and then snapcasters it back to stop maze, draws for turn and bolts me for lethal.

hindsight's 20/20. I should have GSZ'd for knight (7/7) and been able to block his Goyf. If he had the dismember I could still block and force him to use the stifle on the maze that would've protected the knight. That would've allowed me to Liliana Next turn forcing the snapcaster and then maze the goyf without issue, possibly playing the goyf in my hand to stop all attacks cold and use Liliana to get out of a bad situation.

----

From there I played Stax which had one interesting game (2, I was up a game). Game ends with Knight swinging for 7. It was the only attack... He put himself to 6 between Ancient Tomb and Horizon Canopy and I put myself to 1 with 2xbob and canopy. I sign the sheet in with him winning before they pick up their cards since I don't need the planeswalker points. I can never Q for anything based on this point system because of my work schedule and this person might be able to use them sometime in the future.

Then my opponent no showed me... REALLY?! I was only staying in to play while I waited for the rest of the people in my car to either win it all, or drop.

Next round was against a person I've played before and recognized from previous SCG's. We Joked and I almost punted game one by not killing the defenseless jace with my batterskull equipped dryad arbor. But, I pull it out. The next game I catch him off guard with choke. Mind you, he's got double submerge in hand and I don't have a forest (save the one's binned to diabolic edit (arbor) and Mox. knight runs the game away and he's force to try some creative play to try and get the knght to die (9/9) so he starts darkblasts it and does a couple other things then plays Ghastly Demise. we count up but his yard is only 7. Knight wins but i decide again that I don't need to points so I concede.

the rest of my car is out at this point so I mark drop wish my opponent well, get a hold of the buddy nice enough to let us crash at their place and say goodbye the go to the car to start the 9 hour drive home.

[sdematt]

Nice job!

Too bad you didn't make it further, I was really hoping for Jeff to get there. I think his problem was no Extirpate, and not opening on discard on his turn 1. If he would have drawn Karakas, that would be have been the tits.

I'm hoping in the next little bit I get some more testing in. Ideally, during the break, I'll run some gauntlets with the builds and see what's going on.

Want to post your list from ST. Louis, damion?

-Matt

[sdematt]

I was actually thinking a light red splash basically gives us:

REB and Grudge, which is basically enough to run the colour. A singleton Badlands replacing a Scrubland, with Knights for fetching, another black fetch (over a Heath), and possibly a Life from the Loam in the 75 along with Moxen gives us enough to run it.

I'm thinking of a board, like:

2 Pernicious Deed
3 REB
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Extirpate
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Krosan Grip
2 Firespout

It's a crazy idea, but perhaps crazy enough to work? The point removal of Swords backed by Deeds and Firespouts seems hot against Maverick and we don't have to nut-kick ourselves with Perish. Hm...

Shaky manabase? Not by much...

1 Badlands
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
3 Bayou
etc.

4 Knight
3 Goyf
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise

2 Mox Diamond (or 3 Birds)

+ the rest

Thoughts?


-Matt

[damionblackgear]

This was the list. Same thing from KC -2 Extirpate +2 Surgical Extraction. Post tournament I'm thinking of taking a page from some of the Maverick decks and boarding/dropping the Batterskull for Jitte. I lose the body and vigilance but the aggro decks are terrified of 12 Swords so I don't need the body and Jitte can also double as removal/life-gain to offset burn just the same. It also forces them to point removal at every creature since Jitte easily makes them a 5/5 after the first swing. Lili's still been a house every time I've seen her... except when she got stifled. I'm also looking at taking out the 2 Cannonist as I've seen combo... but very little. It would open up for life-gain slots vs Burn and other decks like it.

1 Birds of Paradise
4 Dark Confidant
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Qasali Pridemage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Thoughtseize
3 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Green Sun Zenith

1 Sylvan Library

3 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Diving Top
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Liliana of the Viel

1 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Scubland
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Dyrad Arbor
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp

60 Total
Sideboard

1 Duress
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sylvan Library
2 Eithersworn Cannonist
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Choke
3 Dismember
2 Pernicious Deed

15 Total

----

On the red splash, it's fine. everything depends on how greedy you want to be. I ran 2 Llawan when Progenitus was really big with the only blue being Birds and Mox. I never really had issue casting her but I'm sure it would've come up given enough time. The extra land gives you better odds at not running into that scenario.

I haven't seen the coverage of that match yet. Have to wait for it to go up. we left the round I dropped in since it was a long drive to come.

[Borealis]

Yeah, tough beats DamionB but it sounds like your deck has what it needs to win, you just got shorted in the early rounds. I think a Junk list running Stoneforge Mystic made it to the later rounds, possibly top 64 or so? I wasn't paying close attention but saw it was doing well on SCG live.

Red splash would definitely be doable mana-wise, but is there a real need for it outside of REB? Ancient Grudge is good against artifact heavy builds, but in my experience Krosan Grip is just as powerful against the relevant artifacts we will encounter, while still dealing with problem Enchantments. Grudge beats Affinity and is cheaper, but beyond that I'm not sure it's super necessary.

REB would be sweet, and I've heard of people doing it before in off color decks. But the problem is many of the decks you want it against will have the ability to Waste you off your red source. RUG and U/W Blade both run Wastelands, as does Fish. Moxes and/or Birds can help, but it's still a bit of a stretch. Having dead REBs in hand seems much worse than being able to drop a Choke.

sdematt, what's your main motivation for the red splash? Maybe we can brainstorm some ideas to really deal with your issues while staying on color.

[damionblackgear]

Yeah, tough beats DamionB but it sounds like your deck has what it needs to win, you just got shorted in the early rounds.

Thank you. Honestly, I did the first round to myself. None the less, it's a big difference from KC though.

[sdematt]

I was just reading through the thread, many pages back, and it came up. I was just Brainstorming, really. Not really having any issues, just raising the point for the sake of it.

-Matt

[Elminister]

Yeah, tough beats DamionB but it sounds like your deck has what it needs to win, you just got shorted in the early rounds. I think a Junk list running Stoneforge Mystic made it to the later rounds, possibly top 64 or so? I wasn't paying close attention but saw it was doing well on SCG live.

Red splash would definitely be doable mana-wise, but is there a real need for it outside of REB? Ancient Grudge is good against artifact heavy builds, but in my experience Krosan Grip is just as powerful against the relevant artifacts we will encounter, while still dealing with problem Enchantments. Grudge beats Affinity and is cheaper, but beyond that I'm not sure it's super necessary.

REB would be sweet, and I've heard of people doing it before in off color decks. But the problem is many of the decks you want it against will have the ability to Waste you off your red source. RUG and U/W Blade both run Wastelands, as does Fish. Moxes and/or Birds can help, but it's still a bit of a stretch. Having dead REBs in hand seems much worse than being able to drop a Choke.

sdematt, what's your main motivation for the red splash? Maybe we can brainstorm some ideas to really deal with your issues while staying on color.

2 x Grudge against SFM decks. 2-3 x Pyroclasm / Firespout is for Combo Elves, which are, imo, Rock's worst nightmare, unless you run SFM and Jitte (which I don't). Also great against Merfolk. Combo Elves knocked me out of Top 8 and beat me in the finals of last 2 major tournaments I've been to, which is why I feel the need for some strong hate in sideboard.

With Badlands in sb and Mox build, you will never have trouble casting red spells.

[Borealis]

I wouldn't say never. While I agree that with 8 black fetches, 1 Badlands, and 3 or so Moxes, you can support a handful of red spells, I think it's still highly likely that the following will happen in attempting to do so:

A) You will draw Badlands in the opener with no red spells and be sad, since it's basically a Swamp vulnerable to Wasteland at that point. Or you will draw a Red spell in your opener with a bunch of basics and Bayous.

B) You will fetch a Bayou or Scrubland instead of the Badlands and then draw a Red spell, followed by several turns without a fetch or Mox. (Mox still needs to eat a land, which makes it much worse when you NEED that red source.)

C) You will reveal your red splash game 1 or 2, and your opponent will then successfully strand a red card in your hand next game thanks to the knowledge. Most likely it will be a REB.

..Just a couple random but likely scenarios that will occur with this splash. I know it's doable, but I think it will hurt consistency. We run Wasteland, and often must force a color-hungry deck into running smoothly on just a few colored sources. With Karakas, Maze, Canopies, and Basics already in the manabase, adding a 4th color is going to make for some awful Opening 7s, and will certainly create a few stumbles in midgame development.

Mostly though, we already have the tools for the jobs you are referencing above. Ancient Grudge kills 2 equipments, sure, but Krosan Grip doesn't get countered. I'd personally rather have Grip against U/W Blade. If you really need to kill more artifacts, just run 3 Grips in your SB.

Pyroclasm and Firespout are great and all, but we have access to Perish, Pernicious Deed, Engineered Explosives, Engineered Plague, Damnation, and Wrath of God, to name a few. Pyroclasm is cheaper, yes, but EE and Deed are both far more powerful in other matchups. We are one of Merfolk's worst matchups, and running 3x Deed pretty much clinches the match for us after sideboarding. Yes they can win, especially if they are a GOOD Fish pilot, but we should have a good EV against them.

If Elves is giving you hell, Engineered Explosives is a bit better. Again, good Elves pilots will give us a heck of a ride, but Sweepers and Darkblasts out of the sideboard combined with Hymn to Tourach and GY hate (vs. the Intuition plan) should get us a pretty favorable position.

Red is splashable, but I think if you do it would probably be worth going heavier into the color, or giving up on some of the utility lands (also fine). I'm not saying it's a bad idea, but I think SB-only red cards that overlap our existing options don't warrant a splash, nor the precious SB slots taken up by lands. Tell me you also want to run 4x Lightning Bolt in the main and maybe like 4x Bloodbraid Elf, and I'm all ears. Jund is pretty good too in the right meta.

[ForlornEgoist]

While I am somewhat more optimistic than Borealis when it comes to possible scenarios for our red splash, it is my opinion that when a 4th color splash is involved it should be because you need that splash to answer either a specific card/deck/situation. While we've just begun to brainstorm the possibility of a red splash, one must ask what exactly does it provide (even if the card is more optimal) that we cannon find to a greater or lesser extent in our other 3 colors.

I honestly don't think a light splash (1 Badland/1 Bloodstained/1-2 Birds/2-3 Moxes) would affect the playstyle of our deck, however the issue I would take is that after splashing red it seems like we're attempting to become a suboptimal Zoo deck. Afterall, Stoneforge/Bob can easily fit inside a Zoo shell, not to mention GSZ has more viable targets available. I am by no means against theorycrafting possible evolutions or styles for our decks, nor am I entirely unopposed to attempting a red splash however I would simply seek to know what weaknesses our deck needs to cover with red that cannot be found in the other 3 colors we currently run.

Forlorn Egoist

[sdematt]

Don't get me wrong, I'm just thinking along this tangent for the sake of it. Literally, I'm innovating for the sake of innovating, not necessarily progress. Plus, I love playing Ancient Grudge. Maybe I'm just trying to fit it into everything.

-Matt

[damionblackgear]

Let's take a look at what's giving up issues then. Red may be able to better solve that question than presenting an answer we already have.

[sdematt]

I found Maverick, especially Punishing Maverick, to be a bit tricky. They just have tons of creatures and protection, and the equipment can be a bitch. Deed is a tad slow here, since if they gave the GSZ, they can bust it with Pridemage before you can activate.

Perish only deals with this partially, since they still have SFM and Mothers which are white.

Teeg also turns off some ability to GSZ, or cast Damnation.

But, Firespout doesn't kill Knight.

Thoughts?

-Matt

[coraz86]

All of the creatures you just mentioned are white. Have you tried Virtue's Ruin? One of my friends was boarding it in Junk and Deadguy for a while and had pretty good success with it.

[ForlornEgoist]

I found Maverick, especially Punishing Maverick, to be a bit tricky. They just have tons of creatures and protection, and the equipment can be a bitch. Deed is a tad slow here, since if they gave the GSZ, they can bust it with Pridemage before you can activate.
Perish only deals with this partially, since they still have SFM and Mothers which are white.
Teeg also turns off some ability to GSZ, or cast Damnation.
But, Firespout doesn't kill Knight.

If Maverick is the primary issue what you could possibly think about doing is testing a Burning Wish board. Perhaps running 3 MD, and then in the SB running Perish/Virtue's Ruin to kill creatures and then perhaps Shattering Spree/Primitive Justice/Echoing Ruin/Hull Breach to deal with artifacts. Heck, even Decimate is a card I've previously used (although in Aggro Loam/43 lands so the cost was more reasonable).

The Wishboard may not be the strongest for our deck, then again my meta is more oriented towards combo/aggro and less control. If Bant/Maverick are more prevalent for you then this might improve the odds G1 (as well as being able to cast it under Teeg) although I'm not fond of being delayed a turn for tech.

Forlorn Egoist

[Elminister]

I would say the reasoning behind adding red is simple: You gain splashable, cheap tools for fighting top decks. SFM is found in many top decks. Ancient Grudge makes him a 1/2 critter. Jace is really hard to deal with and can easily turn game against us. Pyroblast deals with this card for 1 CMC.

Perish or Virtue's Ruin don't help much against Maverick, since the deck relies on 2 threats: KotR and Equipment. If you want to win, you need to stop those threats. Firespout doesn't seem needed in this match-up. Deeds and / or Grudge does it for me.

This brings me back to Vindicate story. I don't understand why people are cutting this card. It takes care of creatures. It takes care of equipment. It takes care of planewalkers. It takes care of enchantments (like Sylvan Library). It's great against Maverick, it helps vs. UW Control, it kills all of Canadian's threats. I just don't see a reason to cut it. Vindicate's versatility makes it great for G1. For G2 and G3, you can easily board it out.

[damionblackgear]

So the big issue that everyone's worried about is Maverick? It seems as though Deed wouldn't be an ideal addition with them having the ability to consistently out-ramp us into GSZ "bullets". Another notch against it is that their curve is the same as ours so there is no way to gain value. It's more of a panic button with a tack on the front.

Additionally, Mom's protection makes fast removal not only better equipped to deal with them but also needed. Cards like Vindicate are versatile but they are also costly. A turn 1-2 mom on the play is immune to vindicate until you're ready to blow at least one other piece of removal.

You can't cut vindicate for being slow as they play swords, including Feast and Famine (which I'm still against but I'm sure there's got to be a reason to play it... outside of us).

The thing that I'd say that we're looking for is quick removal and a way to sustain the game. So, does red help? If so, How?

[sdematt]

Red Rock:

1 Plains
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Bog
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
3 Wasteland
1 Badlands
1 Windswept Heath
3 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
3 Scrubland

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Dark Confidant
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Thrun

3 Vindicate
2 Liliana
1 Elspeth
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Top
1 Sylvan Library
2 Mox Diamond

BOARD:

3 REB
2 Ancient Grudge
3 Extirpate
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pernicious Deed
3 Path to Exile

---

Basically, you'd be a bunch more control, and you'd forgo the GSZ or SFM route. REB helps handle the Jace issue some of us were having, and both Grip and Grudge is a saucy play. The only other thing I'd want in the 75 is a 1-of Life from the Loam, in any list we're playing. I was playing against BUG Control with 1-of Life and they rolled me a few times with it. Thoughts?

-Matt