Strictly better is a strong word, but playing a lot of TA and BUG control I would say it is strictly better. Your argument that TA is stronger versus combo is not valid imo.Originally Posted by blacklotus3636
BUG control crushes Combo the same way or even more than TA. I play maindeck:
2 Toughtseize, 2 Inquisition, 4 hymn
4 FoW, 3 Spell Snare, 1 Spell Pierce
4 snapcaster mage which is discard/counter/brainstorm + wincon!
Goyf for the clock.
True the clock is not as strong as running more creatures, but snapcaster mage adds a lot of "double disruption", to make up for the shorter clock.
However the discussion which deck is better versus combo is irrelvant, because both decks crush it. Therefore I would look at other matchups to evaluate which Deck is better!!!
Nice analysis. Wrote some of that also in the BUG primer altough I was not aware of "Dark *****".
I was crushed a lot by aggressive decks playing TA and I don't agree to TA having a better early game. TA runs Daze and Stifle. Compare that to Thougthseize and Spell Snare. Which cards do have a higher chance of making a difference versus aggressive decks?
Also: what is best versus aggressive decks is Snapcaster Mage and Pernicious Deed. Both cards that need more lands and have a bad synergy with Daze.
TA can either try to race or be worse version of BUG control post board.
There is a lot of inbetween going on, but i feel it is often weak deck design to have cards that support a different gameplan or have a bad synergy.
Anyway.
Thanks for the good response! I am aware that my post was a little bit provoking, but I wanted to get a discussion going. After the MM banning I was so fired up to play stifle again, neglegting snapcaster mage, because of the bad synergy in TA. But after playing tiago, I wanted to build the best deck for it. BUG consists of Discard, Counter, Brainstorm, Removal & Wincondition. Snapcaster is all of it and gives so much redundancy that I think BUG is the best snapcaster deck out there!
Currently playing: Elves
Good job pointing out the main differences from the BUG archtype.
Still, BUG control is boring like my grandma's birthday party to play with, and Team America uses Stifle and Tombstalker, which are the most awsome cards ever.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
can't say anything against the most awesome arguments ever.
Currently playing: Elves
Yeah BUG control is probably the overall stronger version and GFTT / Dismember really make Tombstalker sad, but man I still love playing that guy.
I think Delver has really helped balance out the deck getting weaker (due to Tombstalker getting weaker)
Yep, Snapcaster is strong, Not denying BUG control is strong... I just... can't... play... control... Sooo Boring...
I love:
Turn 1 > Stifle Fetch/delver/thoughtseize
Turn 2 > Hymn/goyf
turn 3 > Goyf/Delver/tombstlker... most of time another Hymn or cantrip + thoughtseize FoW Daze backup
Turn 4/5 Put opponent on clock
Current Decks:
Legacy:
Spiral Tide
Goblins
Lands
ANT/TES
Dutch Stax
Modern:
Vintage:
Based on my 'spectrum' analysis of UBG in Legacy, my current build is somewhat closer to the Control side of things, with the X being where I think my deck would fit in this model.
Dark Thresh - - - Team America - X - - BUG Control - - - Deedstill
I am running a few more higher CMC spells in the maindeck than classic builds, and added an extra land to help compensate [if you're feeling greedy/lucky, you can try cutting the 2nd Bayou for the 3rd Snapcaster]:
21 Lands (4 Waste, 4 Sea, 2 Trop, 2 Bayou, 9 Fetch)
4 Tarmo
3 Tombs
2 Snapcaster
4 FoW
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Hymn
2 Dismember
1 GftT
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Sylvan Library
The SB is in constant flux, though there are a few cards I always play:
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Spell Pierce and/or Thoughtsieze (I mix it up depending on what I think may be better for the day)
2 Jace, TMS
The reality of the situation though is that in games 2 and 3, I can adjust the deck to fit into a more controlling OR aggressive role, depending on the matchup. In fact, with 3 Pernicious Deeds, 2 Jace and other removal in the SB, the deck almost gears itself all the way towards the rightside and plays a lot like Deedstill when it is prudent to do so. I am also thinking that it may actually make sense to have more cards in the sideboard to shift the approach to the left side of the spectrum in certain matchups.
This is the heart of the matter, and why UBG is such a strong archetype. It has sideboards options that enable it to adapt to almost every matchup, and some of these cards are just complete and utter blow-outs against certain decks. Take for example Pernicious Deed against Affinity, Massacre/Perish against Maverick, Jace against midrange strategies. Many other color combinations don't have the array of options that UBG grants, and the adaptability is what makes it perform consistently well. Add to that that it crushes most combo decks in game 1 (wheras a lot of other control decks have trouble before sideboarding, eg: UW Stoneblade), and you have a serious tournament performer.
The question really becomes, what configuration gives you the best game 1 against the current legacy field (since we can alter the deck significantly in games 2 and 3 to meet most challenges)? My belief is that remaining aggressive but with some strong mid and late game bombs and enough filtering to find them is going to provide the best angle of attack. I think Stifle, Daze and Ponder enable this strategy the best right now. Even if you think that BUG isn't the best color combination to utilize the tempo angle, you can't deny the current success of Canadian Thresh which plays a -lot- like Team America in the first several turns.
I agree... you need to transform regularly into a control deck. Can't deny though that it is not optimal to run 21 lands for Jace and deed. Also due to lack of sideboard space, you cant run 24 lands, 8 removal spells, 4 snapcaster, 4 pointed discard, 3 spell snare & 3 spell pierce to support the jace/deed plan in an optimal way and will therefore keep on loosing to merfolk, maverick,...
I totally agree. And I have always been saying canadian is the better tempo deck. Running TA is like running some suboptimal 2 card combo deck instead of painted stone, because of "liking it". That's ok, but not competitive. BUG having the best synvergy with snapcaster is better on the control side and competes with UW Stoneblade for the best control option.
Currently playing: Elves
I like the spectrum analogy, it clears up a lot of the confusion about the different archetypes.
Wcm8, I've been thinking (all theoretical) that a 4 goyf, 3 stalker, 2 snapcaster configuration could be pretty good, as even before snapcaster, running 4 tombstalker was awkward sometimes when you drew three of them, but there wasn't anything that was good enough to replace it. Snapcaster might be good enough. How have you found that to be so far? Have you had problems with the interaction of removing cards in your graveyard to pay for tombstalker and having the right targets when you play snapcaster mage?
For your first point, why would I want to do that? With the help of cantrips I can reliably find four lands in the matchups where casting Jace matters. And then I can AVOID getting mana flooded thanks to the lower land count and aforemention filter cards, which in Legacy is often just as bad as getting mana-screwed. Guess what -- Jace isn't the be-all, end-all in tons of matchups. In fact, he is a huge liability and often a dead draw in a metagame full of Canadian Thresh and similarly fast threats. 20/21 lands (PLUS the cantrips, PLUS the stifles/Daze to protect them from wastelands) is enough to reliably land your huge bombs like Deed or Jace when they actually matter -- in sideboarded games against decks where they are actually useful.
I agree that right now Canadian is better than Dark Thresh as far as pure tempo strategies go. But to generalize and say it's better than TA is missing the notable differences between the two decks. Hymn to Tourach is just such a huge beating -- this card basically says 'target n00b takes two mulligans' -- which can be utterly devastating/game-winning and justifies dropping red for black. And Tombstalker is a legitimate clock at every point in the game, wheras Delver becomes pretty underwhelming as the game goes longer. TA also has a better game 1 against most combo and control decks than Canadian.
You know what else is utterly devastating and game winning? Stifling the opponents first land and dazing their first actual threat. Combine these two angles of attack, and very few decks can recover in time to answer your huge monster. Ponder makes employing this strategy much more consistent and reliable.
I don't care about which deck in a vacuum is the better control deck. I also don't care that faced against each other, BUG Control might actually have a slight edge against TA. What I do care about is winning tournaments and playing a deck that is good against the current field. And for me and my [perceived] metagame, TA accomplishes this better than some durdling control deck with a higher curve.
I've extensively tested a mix of 4 Tombstalker/2 Snapcaster, 2 Tomb/4 Snap, 3/3, and 3Tomb /2 Snap. (And of course I did a lot of testing back with the classic mix of only 4 Tomb/4 Goyf).
I think the best configuration is either 3/3 (20 lands) or 3/2 (21 lands). If you're going with 3/3 and 20 lands, you may want to run less 3 drops like I do, but I find Maelstrom Pulse and Liliana to be amazing singletons.
The problem with synergy between Tombstalker and Snapcaster very rarely comes up, especially if you are intelligent with your delving choices. Because we don't play LftL (at least in the maindeck), there's no harm in delving away your fetch/wastelands. And if your opponent is already in topdeck mode, there's no need to leave Hymn sitting in the graveyard. Mostly you are just interested in keeping Stifle (if they're land light) and removal as targets.
You want to see Tombstalker every game, but not in multiples early on. Three is the correct number to achieve this. As for Snapcaster, he fills the utility role and can go in for the last few points of damage/increase your clock. But he is a dead draw in the first few turns and is more of a way to break parity and gain the advantage in the mid-to-late game. Obviously the most devastating play is flashing back a Hymn to Tourach on turn 4. However, this is a play that you would build towards and not always go for every game -- you can use Brainstorm and Ponder to set it up, but it's not always optimal.
I think it is a misconception to say "I can reach the late game easily with cantrips" and therefore do not need more lands. It requires you to use your mana and brings you also in situations where you do not get the full value out of brainstorm. But I dont want you to run more lands in TA. My point was that the games where the postboard plan "board control" with deed/jace matters, TA ansforms to a worse version of BUG.
Also you made some strange points:
1) You protect your lands from wastelands with daze? ... how? plus daze is bad for the late game plan because you are set back the land drop!
2) The matchups we are talking about (like Merfolk & Maverick) stifle hopefully goes to the board, because you said youself it is about board control. So you cant protect your lands from the opponents wasteland.
Calling Jace a liability is true for TA. In the right deck he is most of the time the "be all and all". And in cretaure matchups where you constantly trade 1:1 (and 2:1 with snappy) he and deed is the best way to get ahead.
I agree. If you know you play mostly combo, TA is better than Canadian. However, even in the combo-heaviest meta you will face something else...
So, you argue now like others in this thread. "I dont care what is better" "I like to play my deck"...
"it is better for my meta". Now this is the only real argument however nobody showed me a valid point against which part of the meta TA has a better matchup than BUG control (please dont say combo again or I cry). On the other hand I say BUG control has better matchups versus Stoneblade, Canadian and creature based decks.
Please dont get me wrong. I dont want to convince anybody to stop playing their pet deck. I tried to make a point that this thread does not belong in the DTB section and that BUG control is stronger. The hole discussion so far supported my line of thinking.
Currently playing: Elves
i feel that BUG and TA have one of the strongest turns 1-4 in the game. but if you manage to go long, and it becomes a top deck war, then you are going to struggle, specifically against GW and UW blade
how often have we hymned hymned and then they top deck snap or stoneforge, thereby creating virtual advantage by the gy we have given them?
as long as snapcaster is in the game, i am not sure discard is the most legitimate denial strategy, as they can easily recoup the card loss with this virtual card advantage.
Use capitalization please. Thanks. -zilla
1. Regarding Ponder: Playing 4 Ponder smooths out the performance of the deck. Are there times I wish my turn one play was playing Thoughtseize instead of holding up mana for Stifle or using Ponder to look for a t2 play and/or a counterspell? Sure. But then consider the way the deck plays out -- you ideally get the opponent into a topdeck war with you having a threat onboard. In such situations, Ponder helps you maintain that window of opportunity until they go to zero. Compare that to topdecking additional discard.
And if discard effects are so key in the matchup, you can board into it. [FWIW, I've been testing 3 Vendilion Cliques in the SB to good results.]
Also, as I stated before, getting mana flooded is often just as terrible as getting mana screwed in Legacy. Running fewer lands and more filter means you can get exactly what you need and then stop.
2. Regarding Stifle: I haven't seen/played against too much merfolk lately, but back in the Mental Misstep era, I usually boarded out 4 FoW and 4 Mental Misstep and left Stifle in. Protecting your lands is so key in this matchup, and it screwed up their combat math when they had an Aether Vial onboard.
Against Goblins, Stifle is such a beating, you definitely DO NOT side it out. Almost their entire deck is based on triggered effects.
Against Maverick, yeah, I'd likely side it out, but then that deck isn't too hard to beat anyways.
3. Regarding Daze: Just the threat of Daze makes opponents play differently (same with Stifle). A good technique is to sometimes play Daze 'wrong' by leaving it in the deck post-sideboard on the draw -- often an opponent will assume you've boarded it out and walk their 3/4 CMC spell right into.
Also, how great is it when your tap out for Hymn, your opponent Brainstorms in response, and you daze it? These are the games you typically go on to win. Or Daze against a FoW when they're tapped out.
There is typically no need for a 'lategame' for TA. The average curve is like, two. So setting yourself back a land drop doesn't usually matter. And with Stifle and Wasteland, you are often keeping the opponent's spells in 'Daze-range'.
There are some occasions where Daze can save you from a Wasteland blowout. Suppose you have two lands and a Brainstorm in hand. Your opponent goes to waste one of them, you Brainstorm in response, Daze your own Brainstorm (returning the targeted land safely to hand), and then pay Daze's cost with the other land to resolve brainstorm. This is convoluted, sure, but it is better than losing because of mana screw.
I'm also started to see this terrible Pox deck become popular. With the right build of TA, this deck is laughably easy to beat, and this is in part thanks to Daze (nice Sinkhole ;P), whereas I think BUG Control would have a very hard time EVER beating that deck.
4. Regarding Jace: Ask yourself, how often do you end up boarding out Jace versus leaving him in? He's great against midrange and other control decks, sure. But how often in tournaments do you run into Zoo, Canadian Thresh, Goblins, Merfolk, or some other similarly aggressive strategy? Now while it is true that Snapcaster Mage has granted pure control decks an edge over some aggressive strategies, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's going to be easier to get to four mana through all the mana denial (or five against Thresh/Merfolk since you have the threat of tapping out into a Daze -- not to mention them holding a Lightning Bolt or whatever). In these matchups, Jace is often (notice I said often, not always) going to be a dead draw or a 4-mana brainstorm at best. That's why my approach with BUG has been to board him in when he's good rather than have to board him out.
RATHER THAN arguing that TA is the 'inferior control build' in comparison to BUG Control, I'd be more likely to argue that BUG is the inferior control build in comparison to UWx Stoneforge. Discard spells seem much better in a deck that can a) capitalize on the disruption and b) maintain a threatening board state/disruption. Stoneforge decks seem to have a much stronger end game -- to be honest, Tarmogoyf is pretty underwhelming later in the game if you aren't already winning (compared to SFM's ability to randomly come back from losing board states), and topdecking discard spells when you're behind is bad. In fact, the main advantage I'd see BUG Control having over UW Stoneforge is a stronger combo matchup -- which you seem to continue to be dismissive about, as if TA being -THE- combo slayer is a mediocre selling-point.
But that's really neither here nor there because this is the TA thread.
5. TA is not a pet deck. It is a tier one performer that has game against a huge swath of the current and potential Legacy metagame. A true 'pet deck' would be something like Enchantress or Armageddon Stax. Could those decks be the best deck on a given day? Sure. But to argue their superiority over other 'safer' options without metagame considerations would be silly. I take issue with your claiming that people are playing/defending this deck purely because of some sort of personal bias. Well as far as personal bias goes, sure, I've won a handful of tournaments with the tempo build whereas I've more often gone 0-2 drop with a more controlling list. Should it be in the DTB section? Probably not, but the only person who seems to really care about that so much is you.
Last edited by wcm8; 12-19-2011 at 02:36 PM.
Agreed, and this is why Hymn seems to better support a more aggressive strategy like TA where you can drop a t2/3 threat and ride it to victory. Compare that to BUG control where you are much more likely to end up going for the long game.
How useful is pernicious deed and krosan grip in this meta?
Deed is pretty good both against Canadian and SFM decks.
Grip isn't as great with no CB around anymore, but is still fine against equipment.
I think these cards are quite good in the current format if one has the mana to support them. I don't know that they are best supported in traditional (19-21 land) Team America.
Pernicious Deed is great at sweeping Maverick, can be good against Vial agro (admittedly seeing less play lately), and is any excellent answer to some more rogue strategies that people tend to not tune their decks towards - Enchantress, Affinity, etc. Things to consider are that Deed often ties up 2 turns of mana (5ish mana), and can require you to have an answer to Qasali Pridemage (and GSZ -> QP) against Maverick.
Krosan Grip is obviously good against Stoneblade varients. Being able to outright kill Batterskull and uncounterably answer Sword of Feast and Famine is a noteworthy boost. The other major card to consider is Choke, which Grip can help if one's managed to leave mana up, or has a Bayou on board and can hit a few more mana sources - honestly, I don't think Krosan Grip is the best answer here, something like Spell Pierce or discard is going to better suited than dealing with the card after it's resolved.
TL;DR: The cards are good, but with TA's mana they can be difficult to support, cheaper narrower answers probably prove better. Deed and Grip are better in BUG Control that can support their mana costs with more ease.
Nature's Claim might be even better. When has Krosan Grip been relevant in the last few months outside of breaking up Counterbalance; or playing against dedicated control (with Counterspell alongside Force of Will)?
West side
Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
* Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
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I went 3-1, top 8, then Top 4 (lost to SFM Bantblade), with my delver build last week (20 land)
I agree with you for the most part, however I did run both Deed/K-grip on board.
This is what my board is currently:
3 Flusterstorm
3 Deed
2 Diabolic Edict
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Extirpate
1 Surgical Extraction
2 K -Grip
I only really boarded in k-grip vs. Batterskull, but I found that between my MD Discard + stifle, it really wasn't relevant.
Deed on the other hand is still pretty good, even in 20-land builds. In fact,I DIDN'T board in vs. Bantblade in Top 4, (like a n00b), and this is why I lost to bantblade game 3. I run 3-4 on the sideboard and it is amazing vs. Maverick/Bant/Dredge/EtW tokens/Staxx/etc.
You board Deed in vs. slow decks/draw-go or like Staxx. The matches you board deed in warrant the slower game, so being a 3 drop is irrelevant. It's too powerful not to include in your 75, IMO.
Grip on the otherhand, I'm probably dropping for something else, maybe Echoing Truth or Nature's Claim. Chain of Vapor even, maybe more reanimate, slots, 4th Deed.
Current Decks:
Legacy:
Modern:
Vintage:
I have been running K Grip in my board as a 2 of as well and I'm not entirely happy with it, as in the U/w matchups it is a reactive card that is dead against a Jace, when your creatures can kill a germ token anyway.
I was actually considering Torpor Orb in my 4 Delver, 4 Goyf, 3 Stalker build. It shuts down both Stoneforge Mystic and Snapcaster Mage, as well as Spellstutter Sprite and Vendilion Clique's ability if that's relevant. Snapcaster bringing back swords is kind of annoying.
It is kind of narrow as you'd only really want it against U/w blade decks, and I guess it also hoses goblins, as if anyone is playing that deck and as if we needed the help. Not sure where else it would be good.
I dunno, could be terrible but I thought I'd throw it into the mix.
they haunt minds...
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