[Deck] Next Level Threshold

[chinEsE girl]

In all honesty I think GW in general is just hard to beat regardless, but for dealing with mom grim lavamancer can usually eat her with ease. Unless they have 2 out, you can grim her eot, they save her, then you kill her on your turn. It's not a great solution but it does work. Dealing with both mom and punishing fires together is a bitch though. I'm not really sure any tempo deck in the format is able to deal with maverick that has both mom and punishing fires available.

[Koby]

What game plans people have against Punishing Fire (Maverick)? I also find Mother of Runes pain in the ass despite having 2 Fire//Ices and 3 Bolts maindeck (game 1) meaning I use them aggressively on Nobles/Arbor/Stoneforge Mystic, is this wrong? Should I save them for MoMs and hope I can handle the rest in other ways?

Engineered Explosives to deal with the small dorks goes a long way. Punishing Fire has to be dealt with either removing the recursion (Grove or exile effect)

[dsck]

Engineered Explosives

I had 1-2 in main/side but they dont play well with lavamen and your own stuff in general.

[berry]

I wasn't sure where to post this, as it's 50/50 about next level thresh/Countertop, but since the changes I'm making feels very next level I'll start by posting it here.

I've been playing a tempo-CB-RUG to moderate success in our weekly legacy tournament, it looks like this:

4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Lightning Bolt
3 Daze
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Forest

SB:
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Krosan Grip
2 Spell Pierce
2 REB
2 Blood Moon
2 Submerge

The problems I had with this list was that it played Daze with CB and even Jace, that I had trouble fighting more "true" control decks, and also I really just disliked Grim in it.

So, I wanted something more stable and slightly slower, and brewed into this:

(4 Delver of Secrets
OR
4 Snapcaster Mage)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Jace
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top

8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

Thoughts? Enough Flippage for Delver? 4 Tops should help, they are best friends. Is Snapcaster too mana-intensive for CB/Top-decks?

I know this is Countertop, but it's closer to your next level lists (sans Stifle, but with CBTop) than i.e. GerryT's RUG CB-list.

Opinions, please?

[dsck]

Played today in a ~20-25 player legacy tournament with 6 rounds of swiss. Buy-in was 20€ instead of the usual 10€ so that may have cut some players. Top 2 gets invite to finnish "Caribou Tour" (2k€ invite only tournament).

I finished 5-1 (1st or 2nd in swiss):
Rd1 4C ANT 2-0
Rd2 TES 2-1
Rd3 Imperial Painter 2-1
Rd4 KotR Stax 0-2
Rd5 GW Maverick 2-1 (I lost g1 in couple minutes, he had 3 mana dorks, cradle, mystic, thrun.. After SB i managed to control both games)
Rd6 Mirror with Jori Hukka (deviant) 2-0 (my record against Jori before this match was 0-6 for him, finally a victory!)

My list:
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fire // Ice
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
3 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library

1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland

SB: 2 Mind Harness
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Sylvan Library


SB against ANT:
+2 Spell Pierce
-2 Jace

SB against TES:
+2 Spell Pierce
-2 Jace

SB against Imperial Painter:
(this is probably incorrect way)
+2 Spell Pierce, +2 Ancient Grudge, +1 Sylvan Library
-4 Stifle, -1 Preordain

SB against Knight Stax:
(this is probably incorrect way)
+ 2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Spell Pierce
-3 Spell Snare, -1 Fire/Ice

SB against GW Maverick:
+2 Mind Harnes, +2 Submerge, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Tormod's Cypt (probably not correct), + 1 Sylvan Library
-4 Force of Will, -2 Stifle, -3 Spell Snare, -2 Vendilion Clique

SB against Mirror:
+3 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Spell Pierce, +1 Sylvan Library
-2 Force of Will, -4 Stifle

[Mark Sun]

SB Plans

Would you have considered the following against Imperial Painter?

-4 Stifle, -2 Preordain
+1 Sylvan Library, +2 Ancient Grudge, +3 REB

I feel like Spell Pierce does less against them than REB does. We have the lands to operate under Moon (as long as you're not that attached to Goyf), so it's not that much of a backbreaking effect if we can get Islands into play. REB threatens them when they go off; if they have Painter, they can either turn their own Blasts off, or turn ours on.

[dsck]

Would you have considered the following against Imperial Painter?

-4 Stifle, -2 Preordain
+1 Sylvan Library, +2 Ancient Grudge, +3 REB

I feel like Spell Pierce does less against them than REB does. We have the lands to operate under Moon (as long as you're not that attached to Goyf), so it's not that much of a backbreaking effect if we can get Islands into play. REB threatens them when they go off; if they have Painter, they can either turn their own Blasts off, or turn ours on.

Yes, I actually sided close to that on g3. Afterwards my opponent told me Stifles were more relevant than any of those cards I had sided in .

[Razorwynd]

I played the deck today and was very happy with it's performance. I am looking sure up the UW stoneforge matchup. What are people thoughts on Thrun? I like that most UW decks likely only have 2-3 outs for him in the entire 75 (i.e. SoFaF and WoG). However, he places a great deal of strain (i.e. GG) on the mana base. Is it worth the strain in a UW heavy meta? or is it more worthwhile to just increase artifact hate (e.g. more ancient grudges and krosan grips)?

[Purgatory]

I played the deck today and was very happy with it's performance. I am looking sure up the UW stoneforge matchup. What are people thoughts on Thrun? I like that most UW decks likely only have 2-3 outs for him in the entire 75 (i.e. SoFaF and WoG). However, he places a great deal of strain (i.e. GG) on the mana base. Is it worth the strain in a UW heavy meta? or is it more worthwhile to just increase artifact hate (e.g. more ancient grudges and krosan grips)?

1-2 in the side feels fine.

[Arew]

So, I've noticed that more U/W players are boarding in Elspeths and more Path/Swords effects against us. The Path/Swords effects aren't *as* annoying as Elspeth in that matchup because we have Jace and REB to stop their own Jace postboard. What cards are particularly good against Elspeth that we could run? Should we just start running Pithing Needle in the board?

[Endure2004]

pithing needle seems so narrow....i run 2 cliques main 1 board, so against them i would board the clique, pyroblasts, spell pierce, and ancient grudge

[Endure2004]

plus the scavenging ooze maybe? i feel like NLT has enough threats to fight the swords/path plan....against them i might board -4 FOW -4 Stifle +4 REB/pyroblast, +2 ancient grudge, +1 ooze +1 clique or +2 spell pierce depending on build / play or draw...grim is insane against them right? something they have to kill?

[Razorwynd]

I played the deck today and was very happy with it's performance. I am looking sure up the UW stoneforge matchup. What are people thoughts on Thrun? I like that most UW decks likely only have 2-3 outs for him in the entire 75 (i.e. SoFaF and WoG). However, he places a great deal of strain (i.e. GG) on the mana base. Is it worth the strain in a UW heavy meta? or is it more worthwhile to just increase artifact hate (e.g. more ancient grudges and krosan grips)?

I played the following list again this past weekend to a 3-0-1 record against Elves, ANT,UW stoneforge, and ZERO.

3 Snapcaster
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendillion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer

2 Jace

1 Sylvan Library

2 Preordain

4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Fire//Ice
4 Stifle

4 Wasteland
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain

Sideboard
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Life from the Loam
1 Grim Lavamancer

I was pretty happy with everything. Fortunately, KotR decks are few and far between in the local meta so I can afford to skimp on submerges.

The main deck slots I am questioning are:
2 Preordain
2 Fire//Ice
1 Sylvan Library

Does anyone have any thoughts on the usefulness of these cards and potential replacements worth considering?

I have also been thinking about changing the graveyard hate package a little bit by going:
-2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Tormod's Crypt
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+2 Surgical Extraction

My only concern is the loss of effectiveness of the artifacts for the increased utility of surgical extraction and Ooze? Any thoughts on the effectiveness of Ooze against super graveyard oriented decks like Dredge. My thought is that since stifle is also an effective hate card against dredge 4 surgical extraction might be fine.

[dsck]

I top8'd finnish legacy champs today (99 players, 7 rounds of swiss + top8).

Rd1 ur delver 2-1
Rd2 pattern rector 2-1
Rd3 burn with splash for delvers 2-1
Rd4 belcher 2-0
Rd5 uw(r) stoneblade 2-1
Rd6 id
Rd7 id
Top8 1-2 GW Stax

I dont think I made any changes to my list which I posted couple pages back.

[Endure2004]

came in 2nd at the january NELC at jupiter games with this list:

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, TMS

4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 FOW
2 Counterspell

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Trop
3 Volc
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

SB
2 REB
2 pyroblast
1 Thrun
1 Scavenging ooze
1 Vendilion clique
2 ancient grudge
2 Mind harness
2 relic of progenitus
2 Spell pierce

round 1

0-2 vs punishing fire maverick

game 1 is close, i deal with some creatures but cant deal with the one creature that gets through and picks up a jitte and a fire/ice sword
game 2 he has kotr REB into Kotr REB. ouch. i was actually still in it if he didnt have the last REB. he told me after he only has 2 REBS in his board. must be nice....

round 2

2-1 vs U-R delver burn

this was my closest match, all three games he had 2-3 one drops.
game 1 he plays some dudes, burns me out. i board in a bunch of REBS and pierces
game 2 i remove his dudes and beat down with some guys, winning at a really low life total. he bricked on like 3 draw steps.
game 3 was the real nailbiter. i play around daze and remove a delver, and trade snapcaster + bolt for another delver and a goblin guide, but i take a bunch of damage in the process. he plays a grim and surgicals my bolts, and i lose one from my hand. crap. i play goyf and race goyf + clique vs grim guide. he bricks on some drawsteps while i counter some burn. win at 2 life (he had to last turn chump with grim and burn me to 2) on turn 4 after time is called.

round 3 win 2-1 vs Storm
game 1 my oponent plays some cantrips, and i beat down with a goyf. he doesn't do much, and it's not until the last turn that i learn he's on storm (i thought he was on reanimator). he plays a petal and chants, i bolt him to 3, then he cant win because he cant grim tutor or something...
game 2 my hand sucked and he stormed me out through 1 FOW
game 3 his hand is crap, and i beat the crap out of him

round 4 win 2-0 vs storm
game 1 i stifle his turn 1 fetch, then beat down with a goyf. he stumbles on mana, and dies.
game 2 he tries to go off my turn 0 with no protection. Good thing i had 2 FOW + 2 blue spells in my opener. YUM! i beat down, and after a buncha turns he goes for it again with burning wish for past in flames. i have another 2 FOWs. #goddraw

round 5 win 2-1 vs UR delver (greg komar)
game 1 he stifles me mid game when im light on lands, burns me out after beating down
game 2 i board in a buncha ways to kill his dudes, and we play a lot of draw go before i land a Jace and he takes it down
game 3 same thing, lots of draw go, we counter war on his turn, i resolve a Jace that eventually ultimates him

round 6 win 2-0 vs affinity
this opponent was sketch... i wasn't sure if he was trying to cheat or was just new to legacy, i was leaning towards just new to legacy so i didnt judge call him....
game 1 he has a slow start (land into mox opal) and tries to tap the mox opal for mana, and i have to remind him that he doesnt have metalcraft. he plays a random dude that sux, and then tries to thoughtcast with one mana less than he had to, i have to again remind him. SKETCH. then i counterspell 2 etched champions, FOW a Jace TMS (they play that card?) and then beat him down with a huge goyf.
game 2 he plays a 0 mana dude and a stoneforge mystic, which i let resolve since im holding grudge. I grudge his cranial plating, counterspell an etched champion, counterspell his agent of bolas, and kill him with grim + goyf.

round 7 ID with a dude

top 8 yay!!! my first Jupiter games NELC top 8, much thanks to playtest buddies and mentor and deck creator eric.

round 1 of top 8 vs meandeck MUD
game 1 i spell snare a chalice, bolt a metalworker, waste him, and land a Jace, which he cant beat, all while beating with a goyf.
game 2 he lands a lodestone golem. i force another golem. on 4 mana, i made the mistake of draw step cliquing, instead of combat step cliquing to trade with the golem. he plays 2 kuldotha forgemasters, which he doesnt activate to play around stifle. he beats down with those, and eventually gets me.
game 3 i spell pierce a chalice, then snare another chalice, then waste him, then play Jace while he's mana light and it's over. didnt see ancient grudge at all! so unlucky!!

round 2 of top 8 vs Bant GSZ (4 KOTR, 4 GSZ, 4 Jaces)
game 1 i bolt a mana dork, waste him, waste him again, then draw my third wasteland. he does nothing.
game 2 i again bolt a mana dork, waste him twice, then play jace and he dies. his deck plays few mana sources if you just kill his dorks....

finals vs aggro loam
game 1 i play a grim guy, he holds down the fort and he does nothing. he goes for bolt on grim, and i tank. he didnt do anything for like 3-4 turns, so i think hes holding a hand full of duders that die to grim, so i end up forcing his bolt. next turn he drops grim, bob, bob. I brainstorm into end step grim ur guy, untap, bolt ur guy, grim ur guy. i think im sitting pretty until he rips his only 2 goyfs one right after the other, and i cant deal with them.
game 2 this game was rough, i have 2 grims, but only play 1. sure enough, he has the maelstrom pulse that i played around. i play my other grim, but he has liliana. i bolt down liliana after she makes me sac grim, and then he has ooze + countryside crusher that i can't deal with, and thats the end of the tournament! congrats to david!

i switched the 1 clique in the board to a surgical extraction, and i never cast thrun today, despite baording him in a couple of times. he hard to cast, im still going to try him out, but so far he hasnt been amazing. every other card in my board has been great! i definitely advocate at least 2 preordains, they have been really good. i can see cutting 1 for a fire/ice maybe, but not completely sure. deck is awesome! lemme know if you guys want to know how i sideboarded in each matchup.

[the_ob3lisk]

Endure2004 I played a super similar list (maybe 2 or 3 cards off) from yours today at a local meta and placed 1st. I've been having great success with Canadian Thresh so I decided it was time to test NLT out and I must say this deck feels like the real deal. If you could post how you side boarded... I'm very interested!

[Endure2004]

well i changed the clique in the board to a surgical extraction, so here's how i would board in the matches i played:

punishing fire maverick:

-4 stifles -2 FOW
+1 relic, +1 ooze, +2 mind harness, +2 ancient grudge,

This one depends on the build, but the important cards in the matchup are KOTR and equipment. If you can keep them off those, you have the best shot. This is a tough matchup, but the grudge should keep equipment off your back, the rest should deal with punishing fire and KOTR. PS choke is a beating, if they play that maybe only take out 1 FOW.

U/R delver:
-4 FOW -3 Stifle
+2 REB, +2 pyroblast
+2 spell pierce
+1 scavenging ooze

This one is slightly matchup dependent. if they play stifle / daze / waste, you might want to go with taking cliques out and keeping stifles in to protect your manabase. If they play goblin guide / price, then take out stifles instead of cliques. IMO thrun is slow in both cases, and your plan is to not take damage, and play as many goyfs and Jaces as you can. ooze is just another goyf.

vs Storm:
-1 dismember, -4 lightning bolt
+2 spell pierce, +2 pyroblast, +1 REB

i played against ad nauseam, but boarding depends on whether you play ad nauseum or TES, i think. throw ur REBS at all their cantrips, and i usually keep in grims in case they play xantid swarm. if your sure they dont play xantid swarm, take out another grim for another REB. aggresively cantrip towards counterspells.

vs affinity
first, mentally high five yourself for getting this matchup. then, board in ancient grudges, REBS if they play Tezzerets / thoughtcast, and play tight. Take out stifles, keep FOW in. the important cards in this matchup are: cranial plating, etches champion, tezzeret. counter or kill those, and you should be fine. grims are mvps.

vs meandeck MUD
im pretty sure this matchup is really good for us, depending on the build
+2 spell pierce +2 ancient grudge
what to take out is tricky, it really depends on their build. I usually take out some combination of stifle (if they dont play kuldotha forgemaster, even if they do u might want 2-3, not sure), goyf, and 1 preordain maybe? usually i think the plan is to disrupt them, stop their enablers, and kill them or play Jace. So get their metalworkers, their lands with wasteland, and their grim monoliths. try not to die to chalice / trinisphere. They're pretty helpless against Jace.

vs heavy GSZ decks (like the bant deck i played in the semis)
depending on the build, bring in mind harnesses, possibly REBS, pierces, and maybe 1 relic. What worked for me in this matchup is just disrupting their mana dudes and their manabase, it's pretty flimsy because of how few lands they play. if you can't, you need to be able to answer their KOTRs. Board out stifles on the draw and possibly also on the play, possibly some number of goyfs, not completely sure on this one.

vs aggro loam
i would board out stifles, bring in spell pierces, ooze, and surgical extraction. out maybe 1 or 2 forces, bring in mind harness (countryside crusher = yum) it's a tough matchup, and i haven't played it much, so im not completely sure what im doing is right. lemme know your opinions!

out of curiosity, what cards different did u play from my list? care to post matchups and how different cards performed?

[the_ob3lisk]

This is what I rocked...

4 Tarmogoyf
3 Grim Lavamancer
1 Vendilion Clique ***** (Seems underwhelming every time I ever played him.. thoughts?)
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, TMS

4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder *****
1 Sylvan Library *****
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Dismember
4 Stifle
4 Spell Snare *****
4 FOW
2 Counterspell

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Trop
3 Volc
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland

SB Was tailored to what I expected...
3 Relic Of Progen
1 Tormods Crypt
3 Pyroblast
3 Spell Pierce
2 Firespout
1 Krosan Grip
2 Energy Flux (Affinity)



It wasn't a huge turnout but what I did end up playing against was Countertop Thopters, Combo Elves, and BUG Landstill.


Countertop Thopters -

Cant remember too much of game 1 as it was over with a few swift stifles attacking his fetches. I boarded in Firespouts, K-grip and Pyroblasts. It was over quickly.

Cant remember exactly what I boarded out...


2-0


Combo Elves -

The elves player had an explosive start game 1 and overran me.

-4 Stifles +2 Firespouts +2 Spell Pierces

Game 2 I mulled to 6 and kept an opener with some lands Brainstorm, Grim Lavamancer and Library. Grim was exactly what i was looking for and between him and library it won me the game with ease.

Game 3 I almost kept the same opening hand with Grim. Library following a few short draws after... Grim started to get overwhelmed but a Firespout blew out the entire board and Goyf came in swinging.


2-1

Landstill -

Game 1 Stifle shined once again and he was having a really hard time trying to play catch up. I kept landing threat after threat (Goyf, Clique, Jace) His innocent bloods and edicts were getting burned through quick. Eventually he was overrun by king Goyf.

-4 FOW -2 Spell Snare +3 Spell Pierce +3 Pyroblasts (Later to be concluded not the best idea)

Game 2 was basically control / counter war over the slightness things... He tried real hard to play around my Stifles. Eventually he landed Jace with Standstill... I waited until EOT to flash clique in one turn so he would get less value out of his standstill and have to discard... Clique ate a Force and I drew pyroblast to blow Jace out and that also got countered -_-

- 3 Pyroblasts +3 FOW

Game 3 I kept an opener with a super control heavy hand and Jace. I was able to land Jace turn 4 and rode it out from there...He didn't have many outs at that point. Fate sealing saw a maelstrom pulse so I lucked out on that one.


2-1


Conclusions -

21 Lands feels perfect for the deck. Jace actually doesn't feel clunky to me in this deck, It was great every time I saw him. Lavamancer is MVP right now. Goyf is still the nuts, he gets in a lot of damage quick. Sylvan Library was absurd as well.

[Endure2004]

hey all, im trying the following changes to my list:

main:
-1 preordain
+1 dismember
sb:
- thrun
+ garruk relentless

ill let you all know how it goes

[Endure2004]

hey all, here's an update to the list im playing right now, any comments / suggestions would be helpful

2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Jace, the mind sculptor

4 FOW
4 Brainstorm
4 Stifle
3 preordain
2 counterspell
3 Spell snare
4 lightning bolt
1 Fire/Ice
1 Dismember

4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
3 Tropical island
3 Volcanic island

SB
2 REB
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grafdiggers Cage
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Phantasmal Image
2 Mind harness

I'm decently happy with the main deck, the addition of the fire/ice over the 3rd lavamancer has treated me well, the versatility of the spell is desirable and i usually disliked drawing multiple lavamen, especially in matchups where they didnt do anything. I'm trying out the Gradigger's Cage because i think it stops dredge and reanimator pretty cold, and i liked having the bullet one of that is really hard for the opposing deck to deal with. Thrun was too hard to cast for me every time, and i switched him to the garruk for swords to plowshares decks, that try to beat you by killing all your dudes. Garruk has been great for me the 5ish times i've cast him, single handedly winning a couple of the games, making wolves and killing control decks. he's not REB-able, and is a hard-to deal with planeswalker, sort of like elspeth in UW. He's terrible against lightning bolt, but still gives you the value of leaving behind a 2/2. I'll keep tabs on him to see how he does. phantasmal image is to deal with opposing thruns / geist of saint traft. im thinking of switching the 2nd ancient grudge to a null rod. while weaker against batterskul and stoneforge decks, it is better against vial / affinity / MUD / lands / divining top decks / storm, tho im not sure i would board it in against them all. lands seems like a miserable matchup. thoughts?