I agree with Mystical
I would take out Wasteland and Mishra's factory,
also I would take out The Rack and Bitterblossom
I would then try a win condition like BUG with Inkmoth Nexus.
then add in one Liliana of the Veil. then add one Vindicate.
I would maybe try and run four Vindicate.
I would like to run Green White Black Pox deck, Knight of the Reliquary would be awesome in a build like this, especially with Life from the Loam.
with the creature base in this kind of build, Wrath of God or Damnation, would not be terrible for the sideboard.
I've been playing the Reid Duke list for a few days. I made some changes but the list is almost identical so I don't think I need to post the list. I'll just share my findings:
- I've been running 3 MD Dakmor Salvage to good results. Don't sleep on the card. It looks janky because it ETBTapped, but it's improves the consistency of the deck. Not only do you ensure you have a land drop after you use Pox effects, but you will avoid having to dick around for several turns finding your next land while your opponent's trying to stabilize.
- I'm still running Nether Void but I just want to state how surprised I am about its power in the deck. I always thought the card was janky and I never bothered to try it. It really works well in the deck, and given an active Liliana or an active Scroll on the board, it's the most powerful card the deck can lay down.
- I've changed the Spinning Darkness(es) with Consuming Vapors. Greed is good, and Consuming Vapors is more card advantage, so I can't really explain the decision any clearer than that. I also removed 1-of The Abyss from the SB for Vapors. I just feel Vapors does the job better than either of those two cards.
- I've been trying Black Sun's Zenith in the SB, but I have yet to kill anything with it. I've only discarded it or cast it for 0 so I wouldn't discard it to Liliana.
Ive tried my hand at Dakmor, I cant get over it entering tapped though. If it works for you awesome.
I still cannot see how everyone has mana problems though with this build. running 4 Pox, I can still almost cast Corrupt at least once a match.
I do like the Dredge ability, and the prospect of bringing lands back though.
The only thing I would like for you to keep at least me updated on, is the removal of The Abyss. is one extra consuming vapor really better than perpetually having your opponents burying creatures?
The best bang since the big one!
@iamfrightenedtoo:
Personally, I never had mana problems running Pox. But then again, I only played Loam Pox (no need for Salvage) before I took up Reid Duke's list, and as soon as I started using his Pox list, I put in 3 Salvages. To me, it just intuitively made sense to add them in.
I think I might run The Abyss again and actually try it instead of dismissing it firsthand. I did suffer an embarrassing defeat by an awful Elves deck (but I think my loss came from using Black Sun's Zenith just to kill two Llanowars when I should have saved it for later). Nevertheless, I'll run it again. It's too bad we don't have a black version of Drop of Honey.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I made some more changes to the MD:
-1 Spinning Darkness/Consuming Vapors
-1 Swamp
+1 Tendrils of Corruption
+1 Beseech the Queen
I still think Consuming Vapors is good, but not MD. I have an assload of sac removal, spot removal could be handy. But I need spot removal that gains me more life than Spinning Darkness. That's where Tendrils of Corruption comes in. Why not take more advantage of running 4 Urborg?
Beseech the Queen is pretty left-field, needless to say. I'm likely the first person in this thread to suggest it (I even suggested the card in the Armageddon Stax thread since it was functionally colorless). I think it's good, because at its worst, it can function as a land-drop or find your Factories/Wastelands. Going beyond that, it can find Cursed Scroll when you're ready to close the game, or set up for a game-locking Nether Void. It's definitely a slow card, but it's not meant to search for Pox effects or any removal or discard. It's meant to find win conditions, hate, or a trump card like Nether Void.
It is surprisingly effective at finding hate, assuming it's cheap hate. G3 against Belcher, I drop a Swamp turn 1 and my opponent drops a Belcher turn 1. Turn 2, I drop a Factory, Dark Ritual, Beseech the Queen for Pithing Needle, and cast Pithing Needle naming Goblin Charbelcher. My opponent scoops.
@iamfrightenedtoo:
Personally, I never had mana problems running Pox. But then again, I only played Loam Pox (no need for Salvage) before I took up Reid Duke's list, and as soon as I started using his Pox list, I put in 3 Salvages. To me, it just intuitively made sense to add them in.
I think I might run The Abyss again and actually try it instead of dismissing it firsthand. I did suffer an embarrassing defeat by an awful Elves deck (but I think my loss came from using Black Sun's Zenith just to kill two Llanowars when I should have saved it for later). Nevertheless, I'll run it again. It's too bad we don't have a black version of Drop of Honey.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I made some more changes to the MD:
-1 Spinning Darkness/Consuming Vapors
-1 Swamp
+1 Tendrils of Corruption
+1 Beseech the Queen
I still think Consuming Vapors is good, but not MD. I have an assload of sac removal, spot removal could be handy. But I need spot removal that gains me more life than Spinning Darkness. That's where Tendrils of Corruption comes in. Why not take more advantage of running 4 Urborg?
Beseech the Queen is pretty left-field, needless to say. I'm likely the first person in this thread to suggest it (I even suggested the card in the Armageddon Stax thread since it was functionally colorless). I think it's good, because at its worst, it can function as a land-drop or find your Factories/Wastelands. Going beyond that, it can find Cursed Scroll when you're ready to close the game, or set up for a game-locking Nether Void. It's definitely a slow card, but it's not meant to search for Pox effects or any removal or discard. It's meant to find win conditions, hate, or a trump card like Nether Void.
It is surprisingly effective at finding hate, assuming it's cheap hate. G3 against Belcher, I drop an Urborg turn 1 and my opponent drops a Belcher turn 1. Turn 2, I drop a Factory, Dark Ritual, Beseech the Queen for Pithing Needle, and cast Pithing Needle naming Goblin Charbelcher. My opponent scoops.
@ Shawon
I love Tendrils of Corruption. I don't run it, for the same reason I don't run Corrupt. I have no real reason, I just don't, I have two of each in my Pox binder just waiting to be used, and haven't used them lately. I cant remember when I took out Corrupt, I think it was when Small Pox was printed. I cant explain how often I say to my friends, "You know,I really want to try Corrupt or Tendrils of Corruption again." they usually just brush me off.
Beesech I have side boarded in Pox.
My sideboard in Pox is
4 Beseech the Queen
4 Buried Alive
2 Exhume
3 Necrotic Ooze
1 Triskelion
1 Phyrexian Devourer
I run the Necrotic Ooze combo transformer in sideboard because honestly with Pox, I do not need a sideboard. I rarely use it, when I did, I ran stuff like Gloom, Engineered Plague, Chalice of the Void (Dan Musser plays in my area, and a Chalice for one kind of hurts Pox, but not as bad as it hurts his one drop Zoo deck.) there is also a lot of Zoo type decks with majority one drops in their MD. I also ran the standard Pox sideboard stuff, but I was finding that the only deck Pox could not beat straight up were decks like Direct Damage, Sligh, and anything red, or with a lot of creatures, like zoo.
with the Necrotic Ooze combo I find I can just outrun them with the combo, and the decks I cant beat with Pox also never run counterspells of any kind.
you will notice the absence of Reanimate in the sideboard, and an Exhume in its place. I run two MD Reanimates in Pox, always have, always will. I would run 4, but honestly I just dont have them. Pox kills my opponents creatures, I love stealing Tarmagoyf for two life, it is amazing.
The best bang since the big one!
What in the world are you...?Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
I wouldn't play Corrupt in EDH, how on earth do you think that's acceptable in Legacy. Just so we're clear, we're talking about Corrupt...... comes out around turn 17... deals drain life to a target according to number of swamps. But that's probably no biggy, it's only Pox, a deck that runs wastes and has to sacrafice lands to its effect every few turns, wtf are you even talking about man 'cause you're losing me.
Consuming Vapors, good in MBC, not in this deck.
Beseech the Queen, good in MBC, not in this deck. Beseech is good in control for finding bombs, but beseeching for Hymns and Pox's is underwhelming and midigated by the number of lands you control.
Why are you suggesting removal at 4cmc? In legacy Pox wants it's removal withing turn 1-3, and <3 mana to keep board control. You WONT hit 4 mana till late game, when you're looking to win. At that point you don't need
All your spells should be geared around 1-3 mana, and your finishers should be stuff like Tombstalker, since you're going to be recovering with very low mana available. Think about this, if you disrupt your opponents hand and board position with Pox & removal, you're sitting on two lands, if you have to wait till 2 land drops to play a spell that's not good.
I really have a soft spot for spells like The Abyss, but it's not good in Pox. It's effect is amazing, but it's so "win more". Nether Void, I own two of them but I'd never play them in this deck unless unless it was SB against storm AND I was running Ritual.
And Ooze + Pox isn't a good idea either, even as a SB option there's far better SB spells. Pox is similar to Stax in that it needs consistency, and you're suggesting throwing a 2-piece combo, Buried Alives into Reanimates? Pox is supposed to be killing THOSE decks >.> You don't build a deck that's entirely on symmetrical disruption then throw in combo pieces, it'll totally mess up your consistency.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
My Pox build is rather controllish which is why I have the flexibility to try those cards. I think it would actually help that I post my list:
10 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Wasteland
3 Dakmor Salvage
1 Cabal Pit
4 Dark Ritual
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 Beseech the Queen
1 Tendrils of Corruption
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Damnation
1 The Abyss
1 Pox
1 Tendrils of Corruption
Anyways, I think you got my deck wrong. My deck has a very stable manabase. I run 25 lands and 3 of them have Dredge. It's very easy for me to rack up on 4-5 lands. That's why I have the flexibility to consider cards such as Tendrils of Corruption and Beseech the Queen (Consuming Vapors has been kinda meh now). And that's why I don't run Tombstalker or The Rack, because I'm dedicating all my cards for board control or "game control" (Nether Void). I might take out The Abyss and/or Tendrils. I have yet to actually use Tendrils (discarded it mostly) and The Abyss does seem winmore. But more testing!
On a side note, I think if there's ever a primer printed in the future about how-to-not-misplay-card-X, then card X should be Extirpate (Brainstorm would be 1st but I think AJ Sacher wrote said article, anyways 2nd place would go to Wasteland). I am terrible with Extirpate and I've probably learned more about how to use Extirpate from losing games because I punted with it than games I have won using the damned card correctly.
Thank you for sharing your list. I understand where you're coming from.
I think the misconception is because your list, in my opinion, seems closer to MBC/Train Wreck than a standard Pox shell. However, unlike those decks, without card advantage like Gatekeeper & Bob, you're going to run outta steam against most aggro, 'cause without Pox you don't have the clock to beat someone down with factories or Cursed Scroll, that'll take forever...
I'm trying to figure out your game plan, because after you completely disrupt their hand, land, and creatures... instead of smashing them with a fatty before they can recover, you instead fall back to control once again, play a cursed scroll, and/or try to beseech or draw into a Nether Void to lock them out and beat them with factories... WHYYY would you do that???
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
I've always been curious why Pox decks didn't borrow from reanimator decks...you have such an easy way to get fatties into the graveyard. I think that in some cases, Animate Dead into Iona would be a way to seal up a game fairly well. I know that the pox-effects ruin your day...but you should be way ahead if you have controlled the board, robbed their hand, and kept their lands in check. A cheap way to prevent their most problematic color and hitting for 7 a turn seems like a good late game to me. Inkwell Leviathan or Jin-Gitaxias seem like decent opportunities as well.
I don't play Pox, so I may be completely retarded, but the logic seems sound to me.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
It's an all right concept, but tough to pull off.
When you really break it down, the difference between why Survival and Reanimate can pull it off is its ability to tutor for the combo/win instantly, that's what it really comes down to.
Pox doesn't really have a reasonable way of tutoring for the "creature piece" & "reanimate piece", so instead it mainly relies on just going for the consistency approach, running multiples of bloodghast/ravens, for example, as discard outlets.
Reanimate can pull it off with entomb, it also runs careful study. These could be mixed in with Pox, but then again a deck that already runs symmetrical spells and card disadvantage really can't afford more card disadvantage like entomb & careful study. I could be wrong, but you'd run yourself out of hand fast which is risky.
The difference between Tombstalker (why it works) vs. Inkwell, Iona, etc. is that you can pretty much draw into him after the fact, whereas with the ladder you'd require them to be in your hand as you play your Pox, which actually leaves your hand more delicate. And like I posted above, I really think Pox's gameplan is to mess up those decks that try to go for that kind of thing. I support Reanimate by itself, since it can be used against opponent and is versatile because of that, but the more combo that gets thrown in the more you wreck your consistency.
If I was going to mix in something like Iona though, I'd probably run Sensei's Divining Top,Sign in Blood, and such. I don't know.. maybe even Mulch and go for more of a BG Loam approach. It'd be fun if someone was able to pull it off though. Sorry if I'm talking everyone to death, it's soo empty at work today lol.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
I used to play Tombstalker so I understand where you're coming from. I don't know, maybe I find it challenging to play the long/control game with Pox. Or maybe I just like seeing people ragequitThank you for sharing your list. I understand where you're coming from.
I think the misconception is because your list, in my opinion, seems closer to MBC/Train Wreck than a standard Pox shell. However, unlike those decks, without card advantage like Gatekeeper & Bob, you're going to run outta steam against most aggro, 'cause without Pox you don't have the clock to beat someone down with factories or Cursed Scroll, that'll take forever...
I'm trying to figure out your game plan, because after you completely disrupt their hand, land, and creatures... instead of smashing them with a fatty before they can recover, you instead fall back to control once again, play a cursed scroll, and/or try to beseech or draw into a Nether Void to lock them out and beat them with factories... WHYYY would you do that???
My list is engineered to win the topdeck war, though. With Liliana alone I can handle any topdeck creature my opponent drops, and I find I get progressively better at using Liliana's ultimate to limit my opponent's options (when you face Enchantress don't forget to separate lands and Wild Growths in opposite piles lol). While Nether Void is my strongest trump card, Beseech the Queen isn't limited to tutoring it. I've Beseeched for Extirpate, Liliana, Cursed Scroll, Nether Void, Pithing Needle (clutch against Belcher!) so far and never Hymn or a Pox effect.
I figured that games go long in Pox matchups...the ones I've played against have gone that way. I figured going with a traditional control-deck approach of playing 4 finishers would be ok. If you consider the life loss from Pox, you'll only need to swing a couple of times with Iona to win. Her effect should hold your opponent off long enough to get in for lethal.
I guess the biggest part about Pox that I don't understand is that it's a board control deck that doesn't have a clear moment where it switches from the control to the beatdown...that's unnerving for me as a long time mid-range aggro-control player. It's usually very clear when to switch from control to aggro in a traditional Rock deck, or even with something like New Horizons. Control until you achieve board advantage and then put the pressure on with biggies.
I've used Smallpox in several deck setups, and it is much less intimidating than a full-on dedicated Pox setup. It can be brutal in the early game but loses steam in the mid-late game, which is where this deck plays Pox and where I have traditionally switched from control to aggro.
I'm just rambling...I'm here to understand the deck and how it works.
Brainstorm Realist
I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner
I will totally play a BG build centered on Life from the Loam. The problem with Pox is that you have to rely on good topdecks after you have cleared both hands and board, but unfortunately Pox has a terrible topdeck. Moreover, I think that Sinkhole is just a bad card; the denial plan can be enhanced with Wasteland+Life from the Loam, and if the opposing deck has tons of basics...well, even with 4 non-tutorable Sinkholes we cannot do that much.
Here's the list, taking the idea suggested some posts ago:
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Bayou
6 Swamp
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
3 Barren Moor
2 Cabal Pit
4 Mox Diamond
25 lands and 4 Mox, a solid manabase to avoid screw and getting always BB on T2. Wasteland, Barren Moor and Cabal Pit are awesome with LftL, granting us a recursion of land denial, card advantage and removal against Snapcaster, Dark Confidant, Delver, Mother of Runes (!), Vendilion, Stoneforge and so on...let's say the majority of the creatures played in the current meta. So, the mana is pretty similar to Reid Duke's list, but we have cut Dark Rituals for Mox Diamond, just to have a permanent mana accelration sinergic with Life from the Loam.
4 Raven's Crime
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Life from the Loam
3 Cursed Scroll
Same shell as Reid's, with two major changes: we substituted one discard effect for another one, in the shape of Raven's Crime instead of Inquisitions of Kozilek. We consciously give up the advantage of a selective discard effect for a discard engine that can nullify the hand of an opponent after just one Life from the Loam; in a similar way, we renounce to Sinkhole to put a card advantage engine in the deck, with great sinergies with Acceleration (Mox Diamond), Land Denial (Wasteland), Draw effects (Barren Moor) and Removal (Cabal Pit), and hey, it's also a perfect discard for Liliana!
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Worm Harvest
these are just flex slot, you can play wathever you want...additional removals, different win conditions and so on. These are the slots Reid dedicated to Nether Void and other stuff. I've chosen Maelstrom Pulse, beacuse Jace is a serious porblem for this deck, and Worm harvest because it's a two-turns win condition, but other options are Garruk Relentless, Nether Spirit and so on.
SIDEBOARD
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Choke
3 Extirpate
2 Perish
2 Spinning Darkness
1 Garruk Relentless
Personally, the reason that I like playing Pox is the long/control game. The white splash (Flagstones, Vindicate, E.Tutor, I also used to run Elspeth as a finisher ) does well there. Enlightened Tutor lets you set up Top/Crucible and/or get whatever Silver Bullets are appropriate, especially games 2/3, so that you usually come out ahead in the topdeck war or can get to a win condition in a reasonable amount of time if you haven't already found a Spirit or Factory. This is one reason that I wouldn't want to play Pox without Sensei's Divining Top. It means that you will generally topdeck better than your opponent. The problem with Top is that it needs shuffle effects, so it is much less effective in the Mono-B builds. Top is a big reason to go the BW/Enlightened Tutor route. You can get away with less than 4 Top (well, you still need to run 3 + ET to get is conistently) and it fits right in with the Fetchland/Flagstones plan (as both shuffle for Top, as does E. Tutor). The Flagstones + Mox Diamond means that your mana development is not stifled as much by Smallpox. Also, note that you CAN play Flagstones into your own Flagstones; they'll both go the the yard, but both triggers still go off. I haven't had much of an issue with opposing Wastelands because if they are wasting my lands they aren't furthering their own mana. Mox Diamond also alleviates this somewhat.
I don't like having too many big finishers either as I am not aiming to close the deal fast and they can clutter up opening hands (the only win con I'd really want in my opener is Nether Spirit (if I've got a quick Smallpox), though Factory is okay as long as there is an Urborg or Mox to pitch it to). I want to grind out a win while being in nearly complete control of the game. If I wanted to race, I'd be playing a different deck.
As for Beseech vs. E. Tutor: If you look at the targets mentioned for Beseech the Queen, you'll notice that (with the notable exception of Liliana) they are pretty much all artifacts that E. Tutor also gets for cheaper (or deal with problems that could be solved with an artifact). While you can argue that E. Tutor is card disadvantage and Beseech is not, you must also consider that E. Tutor is an instant and does some interesting tricks around the symmetrical discard (Pox, Smallpox, Liliana): you can easily stash the card you want on top of your deck for next turn (or to grab with Top at an opportune moment). I can see running Beseech in a Mono-B build with no Top though (even if it isn't the kind of Pox deck that I'd play).
On the contrary, I find Sinkhole to be an excellent card as of late. Sinkhole on turn 2 is better than going Wasteland, sac. You set your opponent back a land drop while you're right on schedule for a turn 3 Hymn, Smallpox, Liliana, or Pox.
This.
Don't forget I can Beseech for Extirpate, the number one SB card I Beseech for in g2 and g3.As for Beseech vs. E. Tutor: If you look at the targets mentioned for Beseech the Queen, you'll notice that (with the notable exception of Liliana) they are pretty much all artifacts that E. Tutor also gets for cheaper (or deal with problems that could be solved with an artifact). While you can argue that E. Tutor is card disadvantage and Beseech is not, you must also consider that E. Tutor is an instant and does some interesting tricks around the symmetrical discard (Pox, Smallpox, Liliana): you can easily stash the card you want on top of your deck for next turn (or to grab with Top at an opportune moment). I can see running Beseech in a Mono-B build with no Top though (even if it isn't the kind of Pox deck that I'd play).
I do not play test Pox, I play Pox. I have played the card/deck for more than a decade now. I did not read over the last few months the two Pox deck's that have placed at SCG events, and jump into the deck. I have said this before, and I mean it. -I have entered more tournaments with bad Pox decks because I wanted to try some crazy idea i came up with knowing I was going to go 0-x which is no wins all loses, more often than most of you have entered tournaments.What in the world are you...?
I wouldn't play Corrupt in EDH, how on earth do you think that's acceptable in Legacy. Just so we're clear, we're talking about Corrupt...
All your spells should be geared around 1-3 mana, and your finishers should be stuff like Tombstalker
I really have a soft spot for spells like The Abyss, but it's not good in Pox. It's effect is amazing, but it's so "win more". Nether Void, I own two of them but I'd never play them in this deck unless unless it was SB against storm AND I was running Ritual.
And Ooze + Pox isn't a good idea either, even as a SB option there's far better SB spells. Pox is similar to Stax in that it needs consistency, and you're suggesting throwing a 2-piece combo, Buried Alives into Reanimates? Pox is supposed to be killing THOSE decks >.> You don't build a deck that's entirely on symmetrical disruption then throw in combo pieces, it'll totally mess up your consistency.
I run no less than 3 Pox usually fourof, and I never have a hard time with lands, and I only run 17-18
I am telling you, at least one time every match, I find that I could cast a corrupt for a kill. Do I run Corrupt? no. It would be ridiculously impossible to cast consistently and further more is just a bad card. I was simply stating that I want to run it. For that matter I want to run Nightmare, recurring nightmare, Megrim and all the other old school cards that do not see play anymore. I wont, but I would like to.
as for Necrotic Ooze combo. did you read my post or did you just see the Ooze combo and think it is bad. I am telling you, it works.
you side out all the cards that make Pox, Pox.
3-4 Pox
4 Small Pox
4 Bump in the night (yes I run them, yes they work, I do not care.)
3-4 Underworld dreams (Amazing in Legacy now.)
then the deck is just discard spells, you drop in the Necrotic side board, and you have a turn two deck. or a deck that can race Burn, because Pox loses to Burn 9-10 times.
I run this deck, I win with this deck, I also lose with this deck, but everyone loses.
My friend loses with his 4k$ Lands deck, that is awesome.
The only deck I would ever trade for Pox is Affinity, which I play to mix things up, and when people side board hate my deck at local tourneys.
also with the Necrotic Ooze combo. when you play someone one, and the second game comes, they sideboard for Pox, when you sideout the deck and change it, they just threw in a bunch of cards that do nothing against Ooze combo.
again I run this, this is not theory,
Bump in the Night is not a theory, I run it, and it works.
the deck works, The only thing I have never used is Liliana. I do not have them. and wont have them for a while.
I wish I had them though, its all my deck needs.
also, Wasteland is not needed in this deck, neither is Sinkhole. Ask reid Duke why he put them in his build, and I guarantee he says because they are old school. they are just a sinkhole. I agree if I was going to run either Wasteland or Sink Hole, it would be Sink Hole always. Turn two, you have two lands after a Sink, your opponent has one. With Waste, you have one, and so does your opponent. where is the advantage?
Sure, if they do not draw into another land, but everyone runs 20+ the odds are in their favor to drawing lands than not.
The best bang since the big one!
Seriously, there is a ton of good info in this thread that is being majory overlooked. Everyone seems to know it all about Pox with practically NO experience.
Here's a good example quoted from a post a few pages back.
That line of play is sooooooooooooooooo bad. If you don't have a turn 1 play (Inquisition/Dark Ritual) and/or try to play a Smallpox BEFORE Pox you should just scoop and possibly quit Magic.Opponent turn 1: nacatl
You: Swamp
Opponent turn 2: Goyf, cat attacks you to 17
You: Smallpox, opponent sacrifices cat
Opponent turn 3: Another dude, goyf attacks you to 13
You: can't even cast pox because you just played smallpox, so you luckily have innocent blood and play it.
Opponent turn 4: Goyf takes you to about 8 or 9
You: Pox
Opponent probably still has a guy somewhere in hand or in play
You're on 5 or 6 life, opponent is on 13
Yes you only took 3 and your opponent took 7
Who cares, you're dead to literally everything and your opponent is laughing that you just bolted yourself
You can argue that there was probably a better line of play in this situation depending on what you had in hand but the truth is that against any deck like this (zoo and maverick, some versions of bant etc which are all quite popular) Pox will very often put you in this position. If you cast a smallpox instead then you only lose 1 life and compared to resolving pox that can often be the difference between winning and losing.
Pox should be a 4-of or at least 3-of in any "hardcore" Pox build. Go back in this thread and read those who have experience. Two of the most important points are x3/4 Pox and attacking Hand OR Land (not both).
And yes, of course trying to maximixe value out of life loss from Pox is key. Ritual Pox turn 1, or Inquisition/Pox turn 2 (unless your opponent has 7 cards then just Pox) or turn 3 Pox is the typical play if you see a Pox in the first 3 turns.
I'm also a HUGE fan of Liliana. Ritual into Liliana wins against so many decks and if they FoW when you are playing Rack... they're playing right into your "hand!" Also Liliana's +1 is so sick in Pox as it allows you to run multipes of cards you wouldn't normally and discard the extra to her (of course also having the option to discard them to Pox or Smallpox) OR just getting value out of Bloodghast.
I won a ten person Legacy tournament last Friday with the following list ;)
4 Inqusition
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
4 Liliana
1 Dismember
1 Vengeful Pharaoh
4 Rack
4 Bloodghast
1 Cursed Scroll
1 Underworld Dreams
2 Tombstalker
4 Dark Ritual
x22 Swamp
Most fun/sick play of the tournament was in the finals in game 3 I kept a hand on the draw of Inquisition, Hymn, Hymn, Dark Ritual, Swamp (+2 other cards) and drew another Dark Ritual (!) then killed him with a Rack or Tombstalker (forget).
My list is ever-changing. I'm considering Bump in the Night ;) ... also usually take out Tombstalkers if meta is super-heavy removal.
Well, I wouldn't lump everyone into that category.
Zoo's a tough matchup, though. There's no easy hate like boarding in Engineered Plague and such. I've tried more control like Dystopias, Blossom/Spirit Contamination lock, or simply trying to race them damage in more aggro builds like yours, I think I ran 3 Tombstalkers and ghasts. Even in a best case scenario, they can force a lot of damage on you, allow you to Pox and go down to 5-6 life till you stabilize, that's still burn range.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
The example I gave was merely to illustrate how the card pox normally functions in a match against an aggressive deck.
It was not meant to be a primer on how to play the game.
If you had waited until turn 3 to pox them and then smallpox afterward you would put yourself in an identical position regardless.
You say to go back and read the thread, from the hardcore pox 'vets' or whatever. Newsflash - they printed liliana. The deck is now completely different. Cards must be considered and re tested with this in mind. Unless there's a certain post about a specific card or something this thread essentially starts at about page 90.
You can't attribute Reid's decision to play sinkholes purely to nostalgia and then adamantly refuse to play less than 4 copies of pox simply because "that's the way it's always been." The irony is hilarious.
I still can't get over how anybody thinks bump in the night is playable
Earlygame, it's lava spike, which is rubbish, because you would rather have some edict or discard which actually interacts with the opponent and helps you stabilize.
Lategame, it's 3 damage, which is fine, if your opponent is on 3 or less life, but there are plenty of cards which do potentially infinite damage for an identical, if not comparable amount of mana:
The Rack
Cursed Scroll
Mishra's Factory
Underworld Dreams
Any creature
The only argument for bump in this case is that it doesn't die to removal, but to blank the above list you need removal for 3 different card types - it's simply not a valid point.
@Morgothian that list looks interesting
I always wanted to try a BG build but I was never sure that the extra lands from LftL is what the deck needs. Your deck design seems solid but I think you will find 4 Ravens crime to be an excessive amount and I would definitely cut 1, possibly 2. If you test it then I would like to know how it goes
@Mr. Safety
The deck is pretty much in the control role 100% of the time
There is usually never any situation where you will be able to race a threat the opponent has, so you spend all your resources dealing with whatever the opponent is doing while dealing small amounts of damage at a time with cards like cursed scroll.
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