Why does he not have anything against Leyline?
But it's right that Nature's Claim ir Chain of Vapor are generally better than Ray of Revelation due to the mana cost. If Leyline is a threat in your meta, I'd use the last slot for a 5th answr er to that (like 4 Claims + 1 Ray over 4 Rays).
Other than that if your metagame has lots of combo decks, run another DR target in that slot (like Sadistic Hypnotist).
What Izor said, only would I advise to cut the 4th Grudge, too.Originally Posted by Izor
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Guys, an increasing number of players is now diversifying their hates, between Artifacts, Creatures (Ooze), Enchantments (Wheel) and spells (Surgical/Extirpate). Now, Grudges and even CoV and Ray of Revelation are doubtable card choices for G2.
What is your suggestions?
I've already found 3 slots for Tireless Tribe in my SB, and I usually prefer to bring them over Ancient Grudge if I expect Relic/Tormod.
Also, against Surgical+Scapcaster, I usually bring another DR and some targets, that allows me to win through 1 or even 2 Surgical effects.
So, my standard Sibeboard is like this:
4x Nature's Claim (avoid random auto-loses)
2x DR (I use just 1 main deck)
1x Iona
1x Elesh Norn
1x Sphinx of Lost Truths
2x Ancient Grudge
3x Tireless Tribe
1x Open slot (probably another DR Target)
Thoughts?
Turn one win with Lion's Eye Diamond. Seriously.
This is one reason why I have become such a big advocate of LED dredge. LEDless feels like an uphill battle against Maverick as of late. Best way to beat them is win before they get a turn 1 or 2. Surgical Extraction may stop this plan, but probably won't.
Also, my sideboard is feeling more and more obsolete and useless. I'm not typically a fan of sideboard cards like leyline of the void and winds of change, but now might be a time to consider cards those cards as well as others.
Edit: Also, show and tell or painter's servant SB package might be worth doing to the sideboard. We need to try some more unconventional things in order to remain competitive.
About Maverick... Chain of Vapor is more diverse than Nature's Claim. I believe CoV is better than Claim against Maverick. There are a couple of reasons I think this. First, they play Wasteland, so being castable off any land is a huge benefit. Second, like you said, they play artifact, enchantment, and creature hate. You'll feel silly staring at Ooze with a Claim in your hand. If our sideboards are supposed to help with our bad pairings, then shouldn't CoV be our first choice?
CoV is also stronger against Reanimator, another bad match up.
As for combo, you either need LED or Winds of Change to help. Dread Return targets are a silly way to beat combo if you think about it. If you're casting DR, then you (most probably) cast Breakthrough or activated Coliseum beforehand. In which case, you should be shredding their hand with Therapy. My whole point is that you want better enablers, not cards that are helpful after you've "gone off." This is why nobody plays FKZ anymore. Even in LED lists, I don't think you need it because of Therapy.
How do you usually win turn 1 against T's Crypt or Leyline?
Anyway, Surgical Extraction is much more of a threat than you want to admit for LED builds. On the one hand you can win before they have the time to use multiple cantrips to find their Extraction and/or Snapcaster it back (which is where you are correct).
But on the other hand you also have a much higher risk of them blowing you out completely with a Surgical if you try to win turn 1. You don't always have LED plus Land plus Breakthrough plus two different Dredgers PLUS not fizzle after your first Dredge. LEDless can't prevent the first Surgical from happening, but they can slowly build up a graveyard and try to win anyway. If you crack LED in response to a draw effect and discard a Dredger, they can screw you hard with a single Extraction on your Dredger at that point. And then the game is over, because you have no ressources left (unless you're super lucky and have multiple Dredgers, but then they can also have multiple Extractions I suppose).
I don't want to hate on LED in general, I just wanted to point out that the 'screw everything, I'll just win turn 1'-mentality bears a very high risk and shouldn't always be your only strategy.
However, if you think like this, it makes perfect sense that you don't really need your sb all that much. Whether people want to board against hate or not is something everyone has to know himself.
Doesn't everybody play 3 Coffin Purge at this point in their board? It's absolutely a staple of mine until Snapcaster + Extraction sees less play. I'm talking about LEDless lists here.
Well, I play Purify the Grave instead. A bit better.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
The only reason why Purify the Grave is better than Coffin Purge is an opposing Iona naming black, [when we play against Reanimator or other Dredge Pilots] or am I missing something important here?
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
this is a really tired-ass argument. thank god someone killed it in one post and not a full page.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
It should not be our only strategy, but against maverick this is the best strategy.
Whether anyone would like to admit it or not, the raw speed of LED does indeed win matches that LEDless cannot.
LED and LEDless have different play styles, advantages and drawbacks... LED's speed is relevant sometimes, and LEDless resiliency can be also relevant.
But that's not my point.
My point is: in LEDless builds, how do we manage to fight diversified hate?
In LEDless builds, what is the best answer to multiple Extractions? More speed? More dredgers? Coffin Purge? Leyline of the Void?
In my experience, Coffin Purge is not the way to go, because blue decks (multiple Extractions = Snapcaster Mage) can easily answer a Coffin Purge, and many decks also play Wasteland, and you can't rely on 2 rainbow lands.
So, in general, against diversified hate or multiple extractions, I believe we should make our decks better, instead of diluting them with anti-hate pieces.
Thisi is a problem I've tried to solve since the Crapmaster Mage-Extraction techs are all over the place. I also found that Purge/Purify aren't satisfactory and boarding Leylines against them seems both clunky and exaggerated.
Basically I think it could actually be best to play the best 60 we can, without diluting anything, and try to win as fast as possible. This is basically what you said. In general, that would mean that we just stay with our maindeck.
On a sidenote. You know what's the best list we can play against all those UX Snapcaster-Extraction decks? Well, actually it's Manaless Dredge. Tears Tempo decks apart pre board and has a much higher density of recurring threats and Dredgers against Extractions...
Still, this doesn't really make me want to give up my lands. Manaless is just so susceptible to so many different things...
This.
I gave up on Manaless due in large part to the rising number of people playing Leyline of the Void in their sideboards and the frustration that comes along with losing to one card against bad decks in general. The deck has an incredibly high Game One win percentage, and then just tanks Game Two and Three under pressure and sandbagged hate. You can play around it, but it's really hard.
I've basically switched over to Mana Dredge at this point and I'm trying all sorts of different configurations. One of the configurations I'm currently working with involves Ashen Ghoul. Decks which maintain a high level of conditional counter-magic completely fold to hyper-aggressive strategies - much like the one I'm tailoring my build to. I am running a full set of Ashen Ghoul, Nether Shadow, and Ichorid - with a set of Phantasmagorian. Not only has this change given me the versatility to shred Tempo strategies, but it also gives me the land necessary to board in help against relegated hate.
Two of the cards people love to hit with Extraction are Ichorid and Bridge, and Ashen Ghoul gives me the versatility to continue added pressure in the wake of a resolved Extraction. It's been very good in testing. At worst, it's an added threat - a legitimate threat - that works better than cards like main-decked Faerie Macabre which in a lot of circumstances is dead and just Ichorid fodder. It's the same principle here, except I'm going hyper-aggressive to grind out Game One wins - still with the same good win percentages - and open up options with the sideboard. I have been testing and watching others run Dredge and hardly get the chance to resolve a Breakthrough or Careful Study in the matchups where they should already win without having to cast really anything to begin with. Against Combo, I can see the appeal, and while those cards are good, I'm just not sold on the unnecessary amount of stock put into them to win games which are already winnable to begin with.
Dredge relies on its graveyard to win games, and that should be enough instead of casting spells outright. By the time you shred someone's hand with Therapy(ies), you should already have the game in hand anyway. The Manaless strategy was/is strong because most decks are ill-prepared to handle evasive and recursive threats each turn. It's the same thing here, except you have lands to help out post-board. I am teetering between a L.E.D. and L.E.D.-less build, too.
I've been working on this for the last few days and for what it's worth, I've liked what I've been seeing. A lot. I feel comfortable with the changes. Of course, I don't want to step on anyone's toes here because the list I'm playing is a hybrid list which is basically Manaless - with mana, but even more hyper-aggressive, yet more evasive than the aforementioned. I am not saying my list is "better" or "superior" or anything, I'm just trying a new strategy that seems to be working well.
For reference, here is the list I'm playing:
// Lands
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
4 [AN] City of Brass
(The land count still gives you a 44% chance of drawing a minimum one land on your first draw when going up to eight cards. Their utility is two-fold with Ghouls main and sideboard options after. Generating 100,000 start hands on MWS provided a calculation of having at least one land in the opening seven at 41.96%.)
// Creatures
2 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths
1 [GP] Angel of Despair (Better than Iona in the main to help deal with problematic threats game one.)
4 [PLC] Phantasmagorian
4 [FUT] Street Wraith
4 [B] Nether Shadow
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [IA] Ashen Ghoul
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
// Spells
3 [TSP] Dread Return (Could even go down to two.)
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
1 [RAV] Darkblast
1 [OD] Coffin Purge (Or Purify, take your pick.)
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [WWK] Nature's Claim
SB: 2 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 2 [OD] Coffin Purge (Or Purify, take your pick.)
SB: 4 [LG] Winds of Change (Because this deck uses the 'DDD' plan more to its advantage, 'Changing for six on turn two is much better here than Breakthrough for four on turn two and forcing you to go all-in. You're bound to hit a Phantasmagorian and maintain the ability to dump your dredgers. It also doesn't eat it to Pyro/Red Elemental Blast.)
Total Dredgers: Thirteen (13).
Total Recursive Threats: Twelve (12).
(As you can see, there is a healthy balance of raw dredging and recursive threats.)
Basically, this list utilizes some elements of the Manaless concept by continuing with the tradition of playing recursive threats. However, given the density of threats the deck possesses, grinding out games and winning should never be an issue in game one's. The real help comes in the form of answers in the sideboard - traditional answers used in Dredge. Manaless does not have the capability of going deep in many tournaments do in large part to its inability to sustain hope through hate, which is harder to deal with on a more consistent basis. Here, we're trading those draw spells for a more dense threat level and allowing us to protect our investment with the sideboard. With more creatures and added lands, Cabal Therapy is now much more effective as we have the capacity to cast it eight full times instead of four.
The point of all of this - whether it is correct or not - is to assess the strengths of both archetypes in order to combat the current meta optimally. Like another poster said, we have to try unconventional things, and in the short amount of time I've been able to test this build it has shown some impressive results. I am currently reworking this list to use Lion's Eye Diamond, which would in turn affect the sideboarded Winds of Change. I'm really just trying to hybridize Manaless with Mana Dredge and find a medium that works. Either way, it has worked out so far.
(I'm kind of going 'dark horse' at the moment to try unconventional things with Dredge and see how they work. The deck has flaws I'm sure, like dealing head-on with Scavenging Ooze - but most decks are having trouble with that anyways. This is where cards like Winds out of the board can shine.)
Last edited by Michael Keller; 12-31-2011 at 12:28 AM.
Hmm this is definitely an interesting new take on a kind of 'Hybrid' list. Doesn't look bad and should at least be worth testing.
A problem I see is the low dredger count. I assume that this list wants to DDD all the time, so 13 could be a bit low in comparison to Manaless' 16-19.
By the way, your chances of getting at least one out of eight lands in your opening 8 is 68% ! I haven't generated any starting hands and such, but that's actually what theory of probability says. Just calculate the chance that all 8 lands are in the remaining 52 cards. That means (52/60)^8 = 0,318 = 31,8%. So in 68,2% of cases you have at least one in your first 8.
@Hollywood:
Interesting deck idea. Only advice I could offer(never had played your version yet) is finding space for firestorm in your 75. It is your best out to scaveging ooze.
Also, do you always take the draw option when winning the die roll? G2 and G3 as well?
@Izor: Maybe bringing more DR and targets can be a way out too. With our main deck we still lose to double extraction. I play 1 DR main deck, maybe bringing 1 or 2 more from side can improve my chances to flip some narcomoebas and win without bridges or Ichorids.
Also, switching Firestorm for Tireless Tribe on G2 and G3 can provide us an additional body, and one more weapon to fight Relic (if the hate is diversified).
I don't know, I'm still considering those possibilities.
@Hollywood: Your list seems nice, but it still fails against Leyline of the Void. Although it's not an auto-lose (like manaless), you have to rely on just 8 lands to cast Nature's Claim. Anyway, good luck on your tests, and please, let us know your progress.
I always use this odds chart when dealing with Dredge, or combo in general. It's extremely helpful.
Starting 7 Chart
@Hollywood
I like the idea, but I'd be concerned about your land count. A single Wasteland really wrecks the Ashen Ghoul plan. At that point, you'd be a worse version of manaless, right? I've always favored the Ghoul over Bloodghast though, because it's a more compact package. Plus, being a 3/1 makes it much more impressive. My initial response is that 4 is too many Ghouls and 8 is too few lands.
What's the single Coffin Purge in the main for? That seems like a slot that could be opened up, unless I'm missing its purpose.
Like others have said, Firestorm is a must if you use lands to actually kill Ooze.
Sorry, double posting here, but I had another question for Hollywood. Has manaless ever tried a reanimating creature package with these below?
4 Dakmor Salvage
4 Bloodghast
4 Ashen Ghoul
4 Ichorid
I see strong synergy between them. You know, Salvage brings back Bloodghast and can start bringing back Ghouls the next turn. All while the other two creatures can fuel Ichorid, if needed. This package means you get a minimum of 2 power out of your dudes too.
Salavage and Ghast was played in Manaless but it used to be overkill. Well some lists still played them. I can say most of the time, you win in the same turn where you play a Salvage [or at least gain THAT MUCH advantage] and Landfall 2-3 Ghasts most likely to DR another Sphinx or whatever so Ashen Ghoul isn't that important there. I for myself play with Ghasts in Manaless on and off, but never felt like I need to test or play Ghouls.
@Hollywood: I like the idea of returning Ashen Ghoul to Dredge.
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
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