Not quite I believe it is more like RDW And Sligh, which all in all, are very similar in goal and gameplay, with RDW having just a little more burn and explosiveness IMO. They both want to use creatures and burn to either clear the way for attacks or to deal direct damage.Originally Posted by supa_tim
Anywho, I have tomorrow off from work, I am hoping I can edit the primer and fix it up more.
Belcher
Delver
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
I believe what makes the deck so good is its versatility, that you can decide if you want to aggro or control role in a game. One example is a topdecked Delver, go aggro and play it to push some more damage through or keep it in hand together with FoW. Of course it depends on the situation you're in. So that's the excellent way to have options and answers.
So every game you need to decide which way to go, whether the brutal burn plan or the counter/control plan. I wouldn't argue about directions and where to go, but to keep a balance of both. Personally, I play 10 burn spells and 9 counters, together with 14 creatures and it works really good against a wide variety of decks.
I also made the experience that jitte is already to slow against this deck. Of course it's the best to counter the SFM right away but if you can't, jitte needs to be played and equipped, which takes already 4 mana and usually 2 turns until it attacks, in that time you usually have a burn spell ready for it or an active lavamancer, to declare blockers and shoot your own creature or something like this.
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
Well, I agree that this deck goes down to 6 quite a bit, but what exactly are you hoping by giving away 4 business spells and 3 lands?
I like playing with 2 lands and once a BS shows up naturally I want a fetch to go with it.
The average 6 is prolly 1 or 2 lands. Are you really more comfortable with playing 5 spells ans 1 land than 4 spells and 3 land?
Maybe thats just the control freak in me speaking, but I really would like some input on the matter.
I generally like to mull only when i get 4+ lands. 3 is not the greatest but when i do i check to see what my 4 spells are. if its daze, 2 delvers and a brainstorm i'd keep it.
Yes, absolutely. There are exceptions, of course, but anything less than 5 business cards without a Brainstorm or at least a Ponder is probably not going to be a winning hand, from my experience.
Bearing in mind that I don't play Snapcaster, anything beyond the first two lands is mostly overkill. Keeping a 3 land hand is basically identical to mulling to 6 anyway. The chances of mulling into a 6 card hand with more business, or with the same number of business cards and a Brainstorm are reasonably high, and it's a chance I'm typically willing to take, unless the original 3 land hand is very strong on its own merits.
For example, I would likely keep a 3 land hand with a combination of 2-3 Delvers and/or Goblin Guides. I might keep a 3 land hand if I know what I'm playing against and I think the hand will be particularly strong against that deck. For me at least, generally speaking, a hand must have very strong business cards to keep a 3 lander.
Ok, I can see your reasoning.
The thing is that 1 landers are always a little sketchy to me. If its a Volcanic, the chances of just loosing to a wasteland are pretty high and if its a basic, there is a good chance that some cards might be stuck in your hand for too long.
I'll prolly gonna do some testing myself to see where the 1-land approach will take me^^.
Not sure how to put the card tag around on this forum yet but was wondering what the thoughts were about Phantasmal Image. The target drawback is not much of one in this format because most things that target dudes would kill what we are copying anyway... aka swords, bolts, path, ect.
Cards we would like to copy:
Guide
flipped Delver
Lavamancer (not 2 strong but not horrible)
Goyf
Legendary dudes
Bob
Other?
These decks are already tight for space so far but just wanted some feedback to see if anyone has already tried a few of these guys yet.
This is a valid concern, but in my build at least, there are 11 fetches and 3 basics, so you've got a fairly good chance of having a Wasteland-proof first turn, even with only one land. Granted, there are certain times where a one land hand is not a risk you'll want to take. Under those circumstances, a 3 land hand may be just fine to keep, depending on the other cards in it.
The deck isn't really lacking for creatures. If anything it wants more room for burn and counters. I could theoretically see Phyrexian Metamorph as a sideboard option, because it can answer problematic creatures and doubles as Jitte removal, but in a general sense I think the deck has all the creatures it needs in Delver/Guide/Lavamancer/Snapcaster.
[card]Card Name[/card] for single card tags, btw. You can also use [cards] around multiple card names divided by line breaks for decklists.
I don't think [card][/card] works anymore. And yeah, we already have enough very good creatures for the deck. Unless Dark Ascension gives us another spectacular creature card I don't see much changing there.
In my list I'm looking to drop Price of Progress out of the deck, it's 3 slots that could be something else that against the decks I play against, I never need them. I'll board those 3, but I'm sick of seeing it in my opening hand and knowing I'll never land any real damage with it unless my opponent has a virtually non-basicless mana-base, which in my area, is highly unlikely. Most of the decks are 2 color control or combo decks--or it's just like super jank decks people use when they just get into legacy..Even the people that play Bant and Rug have a large number of basics to play with.
I dropped Fireblast out, I might throw them back in.. My list looks something like this right now:
//Creatures:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Grim Lavamancer
3x Goblin Guide
3x Snapcaster Mage
//Spells:
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Rift Bolt
3x Price of Progress
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Spell Snare
//Lands:
18x Lands -- never an issue
I'm thinking I should drop PoP for a fourth Rift Bolt and 2x Fireblast.
Thanks for the info Zilla.
This is what I'm thinking about running this weekend at my local shop.
Land:
4 arid mesa
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
2 volcanic island
2 mountian
2 island
Spells:
4 daze
4 spell snare
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 price of progress
Dudes:
4 delver of secrets
4 goblin guide
2 Phantasmal Image
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 grim lavamancer
SB:
4 Force of Will
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Smash to Smithereens
1 Grim Lavamancer
3 Bounce (prob echoing truth or repel)
Maybe -1 [card]ponder[/card] +1 [card]price of progress[/card]
The one at the ends need to end with [./cards] without the and I'm fairly certain the singular card tag doesn't work.
Just use the [ cards ] [ /cards ]
Around even single cards. It still works, but requires that you use the 's'
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
Thought about it last night. Played a modified list with phantasmal image and some extra counters.
Meh.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
I like the discussion in this thread. I'd like to call a point to the differences in each of our metagames, and how that's affecting our lists of the deck. For this deck especially, you can build it a number of ways, so I think it's especially important that we focus on developing lists that are optimal in a "developed" Legacy metagame. Dropping Price of Progress could be correct for your area, even imperative to your success, but lets not hear about it here, because it's not important to the thread. Also, budget restrictions are not worth posting about. In general, don't post a list unless you think it's the absolute best it can be, with cost not being a factor.
Upon further examination, Price really is metagame dependant tho. Stoneforge decks do pack a ton of basics, and I could see needing to cut it MD. Trouble is, it's so damn easy to board out, and steals so many game 1's, especially in the Snapcaster variants. Time will tell, but I still like me my 3x FoW Counterish lists, that lean on PoP to win.
It may be suboptimal in some matchups(high tide for example) but I've won more games with the PoP/snapcasterish type of list opposed to a more counter-heavy strategy. I find I'm just not able to keep a pair of legs on the board to continue swinging long enough to make any impact and my burn is too unreliable to reach out and just end the game or blow up creatures.
I do feel I have to mull a bit more than I want with my current list but some matchups it's not really a liability to keep an extra land or two. Pox/thresh variants/maverick etc have many ways of keeping you from getting off the ground so it could be more helpful in the long run to hold a hand that had maybe 3 lands max against certain matchups. Possibly 4 but only if you held a brainstorm/ponder/preordain. I'm getting the hang of playing this type of deck a little more now and I think the most important rule is to treat each of your spells like a brainstorm and cast them ONLY when you must. One bad habit I've had to train myself not to do is to respond immediately to a creature with burn whenever it comes into play. Even with snapcaster you must economize your damage output. If anyone's had luck playing a control-oriented deck I'd like to hear your thoughts/opinions/state of your local meta.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
With price of progress and snapcaster in the same list I tend to find that it's far 2 mana intensive. I never really want to hit 4 mana in this deck. I would rather hold them in hand after my 2/3 land drop and make my brainstorms insane. Games normally go my way that start with tap island.. daze your dude... return island... brainstorm... put back instant and island on deck... flip delver... draw instant from top.. drop fetch shuffle.
I play both price and snapcaster as 3 of's but I am not sold on that for sure. Price is a great finisher and with all the ponder/brainstorm I think 2 may be the right number to play.
what would you run in place of a 3rd price?
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
I would like get my ponder number back up to 4. Those 1 drop deck manipulation spells alongside 12 fetches have made my life so much easier and also makes it so I don't have to Mull as much.
I don't actively want 4 ponder in my deck. We don't win from nowhere, like reanimator or storm for instance, we win given time. Paying 1 mana to have a smooth game from then on is worth it, but the deck is plenty smooth as it is, and casting Goblin Guide with that mana is more akin to our overall gameplan. Two color decks are super consistant already, have dense card quality, and early game mana can always be better used.
Burn lists should probably forgo Snapcaster altogether, imo, for the reasons you're stating. If you can't support having 4 lands in play, than you can't play Snappy + PoP. My list plays 3 Force, 2 Daze, and 3 Snare, so 8 counters. The more counters you play the "slower" your gameplan, in exchange for some safety. Lists with Rift Bolt and Fireblast, in turn, shouldn't be running Force (and probably snare), because you're a 7 card combo deck again. Putting yourself in the middle of the spectrum is bad, is my point, because your deck loses focus in its plan.
I see what your saying about picking a side and going all in on that strategy. Are you still running the same list you have from page 2 of this thread or have you made changes. If so could you please PM me the updated list. I have to make my final card decisions tonight for tomorrow tourny so all the information I can get about the different builds of this deck would be very helpful.
I Guess it comes down to what style is going to play better against the local meta as it seems both styles have their good and bad.
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