There's also Vendilion Clique, which is particularly annoying g1 (g2-3 you can bring in either Engineered Plague if the deck is Faeries or just board Darkblast). But I get your point. In the context of Legacy, Despise is the most narrow discard spell compared to Duress and the like.Originally Posted by CorpT
Hello everyone, i'm new writting here, but I've been reading this post for a long time....
I'm playing a BG smallpox construction with loam and goyf as the green issues in the maindeck and choke and krosan grip in the sideboard, but my question here is why don't run cabal therapy?, I think it works pretty well with bloobghast...
I let here my list and I'll be thankful for yours critics and comments
PS: sorry for mi english, but it's not my first language here in Chile
BG Smallpox
Creatures
4 Bloodghast
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Tombstalker
Others
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Life from the loam
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Go for the Throat
2 Darkblast
1 Raven's Crime
Lands
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
3 Bayou
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Cabal Pit
1 Dakmor Salvage
1 Volrath's Stronghold
Actually, I was not suggesting it as an alternate to Duress. I was suggesting it as an alternative to Thoughtsieze. So, you'd have IOK, Duress, Hymn, and Dispise. I'm just asking if it's an idea that could be good. I know it's narrow, but... *shrug*
How on earth are you running that many discard spells?
What did you take out to run that many?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Why do people assume I'm suggesting running 4 of everything? And what's with the hate? I get that it's not OMG Brokentech. But, I think that if someone doesn't like an idea, it can be constructively worded beyond "Why the hell would you run THAT?" I have already said, I get that it's narrow. I'm wondering if there is a possibility of it being an OPTION. Not the replacement.
It would be a lot easier to answer if you weren't so vague and cryptic. So, why do you want to run inferior discard in some number that you won't tell us instead of some number of other discard that you won't tell us?
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Ok. Fair enough. I was looking at what I had and I came across this card. I'm not giving numbers cause I'm asking the simple question "Is this card usable?" I've already gotten the same "No, it's garbage." answer. But, that's not a real answer. I mean, I could say "FoW is garbage." But, then you'd look at me crazy and say "WTF?" "Explain yourself!" So, I guess I just want more than it's garbage.
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
Went 3-1 tonight. Wins were Sligh, Dark Depths combo, ANT. Loss was Team America.
I did in fact drop the Mox, in turn brought in Sculler & Trini MD. Trini & sinkhole won me Depths matchup, I kept hitting his swamps then tutored and he was unable to play spells. 2nd game I also kept a hand with swamp, flagstones, so I ended up double Inquisitioning then tutoring for Sculler and playing for turn 3, I like how Sculler gave me that flexibility and I was able to take out his Hexmage and everything; I boarded in SoFI as a tutor option that allowed me to comeback and win both games against sligh.. Cataclysm sealed out several games, one being 2nd game against Storm, other was Sligh, he came out with 4 creatures fast and it just ended him after I recovered with Flagstones out. I got pretty lucky against storm not gonna lie. Team America was hilarious, it was nerve racking both of us in topdeck mode both games and at edge of seat, it kept boing back & forth but me lose. That's my summarized story, I'm tired nor do I wanna bore you guys with details >.>
Overall I was happy how the deck played out. It almost always had answers, that was one thing I liked about running a BW variant where I could abuse top and tutors.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Would you care to elaborate your experiences and thoughts on Cataclysm? Ever since WW was good in Type 2 I've had a soft spot for it, but I've never had the balls to try it in Legacy.
Do you really need a Raven's crime main with 3 liliana's? Have you considered eternal witness?
Burn
Pox
Affinity
Aggro Elves
BW Control
Sure, however admittedly I still need a lot of testing and matchups with it before I can start to draw some relevant conclusions about Cataclysm.
Two decks I've played a lot in the past were both classic Pox & Deadguy Ale (pre Stoneforge mainly). So this felt more like a fusion of both styles for me. However, the main reason was... of course, to improve the matchups of Pox.
With so many new age lists and the rise of Planeswalkers, ' Big Pox' as a spell simply can't deal with enough, Big Pox isn't big enough.. we need to go bigger to reallly screw your opponent and Cataclysm is simply more versatile. It hits harder: it kills walkers, guarantees they lose all but one creature, guarantees they'll be mana screwed, and does it without jeopardizing your hand or life so you can put out more tokens with Blossom, tank more damage, etc. till you take control and win. The downside: 1+ mana, but when running Sinkholes, Hymn, Inquisition, Smallpox/Flagstones you are setting them back as you ramp up as well, so the ramp is far more gradual and less of a reach as you'd think it actually comes very easy by mid-game.
Don't get me wrong, classic Pox (I'm talking pre-Liliana btw) is still very good at dealing with creatures. For instance, in the past running Pox I had an easy time dealing with mid decks and steady threats, I think that was one of the decks strongest areas (example below just to show)...
But so many times I'd lose to just crap, I remember beating this players Landstill deck one tournament a couple years ago only to play lil Billy's Saproling deck and get steam rolled simply because he plays quick creatures and attacks and I can't find an answer quick enough. That shouldn't happen lol. And yes I do run all the essential sideboards, but sometimes you just get unlucky and in a monoblack deck with no draw or tutors you can get f'd at times (which was another reason for splashing, more control whether targetted removal or tutoring). But yeah, in a nutshell Pox has to be able to keep pace with the opponents creatures, and as long as your opponent can stay in-between 2-3 creatures, in topdeck mode he can slowly chip you to death (ie. below)
However, lets say you're in the same kind of mid-late game scenario, after you've started out with all the initial disruption and removal and such, but your opponent's managed to sneak out a few critters which is fairly reasonable since that's the drawback going for those discard, sinkhole plays, etc. I'd lose these kind of games in the past because I'd fall behind pace, and yes getting stuff like Tombstalker out can save you but isn't always enough if they're getting close to crit range, especially when Poxs' are weakening you too to stop them. But if you can drop Cataclysm (below) you're back in pace dealing with each threat, and you're in a better position recovering after so you've almost assured you're going to win it.
Not to mention Cataclysm is just more multifunctional and versatile in general. For instance, over Pox it improves your matchups drastically more vs Lands... Enchantress... Affinity (assuming you can land a swords, etc. to slow them a few turns) and basically any deck that goes "I'm gonna go a Lot of this", but they lose because their deck isn't designed to recover like yours, taking that concept from Armageddon Stax.
Sounds really sexy on paper, huh? We'll see, I'ma continue to test it more and more, it's been doing pretty descent so far, but that's essentially my reasoning from going this angle. It's a little bit different, at least I don't think I've seen anyone go this approach but I could be wrong. I'll keep you posted. So far this is my deck...
(btw I almost never play MWS, I pretty much just use for databasing and shyte)
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Why oh why do I keep coming back to play this game...
Ok, I've been gone a while, again, but now that I started playing a bit I thought I'ld comment on one of my favorite pet-decks. Let me start with, I haven't played at a high level in Legacy in a long time. There isn't enough 1.5 action where I am. If we hold a tourney and have more then 5 TRUE Legacy decks, meaning something better then a T2 or Extended with 3-4 older cards tossed in, thats a lot. I am however the testing dummy for 2 friends that compete at PT/PTQs a few times a year. So while my high level player pool is limited it is quality.
Now that the disclaimer is done here are the issues I see with the deck now:
1) none of you seem to include Draw options. Draw more, win more, we all know that. My deck runs 7 mana prodicing Arts. With that I can hit 4 mana by the time I empty my hand nearly 95% of the time. That 4 mana is to cast Bottled Cloister, my draw machine. Now I know people are going to say, "but you lose your hand when they blow it up." By the time I cast it I have no hand to lose. the Average CC is just over 2. I normally have nothing in my hand by end of turn 4 (other then extra land), if I drop a cloister and you blow it up I lose nothing, and that's 1 less art. removal for you to use on something that is going to kill you. Also, it protects me from your discard. You don't want a 4-drop art, fine this is black, there are plenty of options. Card draw is king, quality or quantity, and I would never build a deck w/o some kind of draw.
2) I still don't see why the desire to run a big flying beat-stick that dies to the most common removal in the format. I understand the theory, big creature early, smash, smash, kill, win. The problem is you can't protect him. Big Blue, Draw-Go, Counter/Post, Hulk Smash, Blade Control, all decks that like many of the above Pox lists run a bare minimum number creatures. The difference is those decks can protect them and Pox can't. You have no answer to them top decking a STP and killing your TStalker. Add to that with only a few creatures in the deck your S/Pox are just as likely to kill your TStalker as not. Example: you have TStalker and no other creature, you cant play S/Pox. If you have 2 and play S/Pox to kill a creature of mine, even if all I have is Shock, as long as I can kill the smaller of your creatures TStalker dies too. What the bottom line is TStalker is a pain to play around. And with other options out there, there is no reason to try. Oh, and Gyof has the same issue... among others.
I use BitterB. over TStalker, 2 to cast, I can have it on turn 1 and kill on turn 8 if I did no other damage to you with anything else. I am free to spend my mana on disruption and removal while my army builds and kills. And the player has to deal with both the faries and the enchantment.
3) Some of you are not even running a Pox deck. I'm not saying you're not running Pox the card (I don't), I'm saying your not running a Pox deck. You have tweeked, adjusted, tuned and revamped what might have started as a Pox deck so much its now something else. Now I'm not saying your decks are bad, I'm saying the framework in whcih you construct the deck and the key interactions you focus on are no longer the same as if you were running a 'Pox' deck. Mystical_Jackass for example is playing Deadguy with that list, not Pox. the Only real difference is replacing Dark Con. with TStalkers and in the process lost his draw engine. Part of the problem comes from a need to label a deck as '____' when in reality if it works who cares what you call it. But since this is a Pox thread, if you have evolved your Pox deck into something else, the ability to discuss it here is limited.
4) CScroll and the Rack. I have no problem w/ CScroll, I see it as a perfectly fine option as long as you build with the intent of having mana for it. The Rack however I see as counter productive to using land destruction. Its the same as using discard and a Black Vise at the same time. I would just use some other, less narrow, form of damage: PTotems, CIdol, Bloodghast,to name a few.
5) a 2nd color, in Pox I don't like it, largely because I run a lot of colorless lands and having to squeeze in lands for a 2nd color would throw off my mana base. Also with the printing of Ratchet Bomb the deck does have ways of dealing with enchantments (PKegs already did arts) so I don't see any real need. Its not instant speed but for most part it does the job.
Land and Almost Lands: 27
13 Swamps
2 UrBorg, Tombs of Yawg.
3 WasteLands
2 Sheltered Valley
3 Mishra's Factories
4 Mox Diamonds
Creatures and Could Be Creatures: 8
1 Nether Spirit
4 BitterBlossoms
3 Phyrexian Totem
Everything Else: 26
3 Liliana of the Veil
4 Small Pox
3 SinkHole
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Syphon Life
3 Bottled Cloister
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Cru. of Worlds
SideBoard:
2 Eng. Plague
3 Pithing Needles
3 Chalice of the Void
4 Extirpate
2 Ratchet Bomb
1 Crus. of Worlds
that is the deck I was using a few weeks ago over the holiday. I commonly adjust numbers of Sinkholes between 3-4, Rachet Bombs between 2-4, and CIdols 0-1, MFactories 3-4 since the printing of Liliana. She is nothing short of amazing my biggest problem is how do I fit 3 of her in and still be happy. And my SB has changed so many times it will be changed again next time my friends need to try out a deck before a tourney but that SB gives an idea of what I use.
Yes I run Top.
My problem with Cloister is same thing I have with Arena (Yes I've used in Braid Stax). It costs card advantage to accellerate to it, the next turn it simply replaces itself, 2 turns later you've finally gained +1 (not counting if you had to ritual or Mox to get to it). It has the potential of paying off but it's costly and risky.That 4 mana is to cast Bottled Cloister, my draw machine.
I run both. Bitterblossom is great early on, but it's not as effective late game, as Stalker is and really demands equip. Having the bigger creature is important 'cause it's artificial CA in this format, aka Goyf.I use BitterB. over TStalker...
Then you need to try it first before knocking. If all goes planned, you run enough hand disruption to prevent this, if their mana's fragile you can nuke their white source... honestly if they topdeck a path, that's just bad luck but you're essentially putting them on a 3-4 turn clock while getting a 5/5 flier for 2 that shrinks goyf.2) I still don't see why the desire to run a big flying beat-stick that dies to the most common removal in the format.
I think this is a bit of a reach, I admit I've drawn inspiration from both decks but did you actually look at my list? Read how my deck plays?Mystical_Jackass for example is playing Deadguy with that list, not Pox. the Only real difference is replacing Dark Con. with TStalkers and in the process lost his draw engine. Part of the problem comes from a need to label a deck as '____' when in reality if it works who cares what you call it. But since this is a Pox thread, if you have evolved your Pox deck into something else, the ability to discuss it here is limited.
If you look at the actual core cards being used, essentially...
Innocent Blood --> Swords to Plowshare
Big Pox --> Cataclysm
E. Tutor is functional, which can pick up Bitterblossom and/or Artifacts like Crucible (SB atm), Top, Jitte/SoFI(SB)/SoLs(SB).
But my shell still runs Smallpox, still runs 4x Bloodghasts as discard outlet, still runs 2x Tombstalker.
There's always going to be overlap in the Legacy color pies, but I do not run Dark Confidant, Mother of Runes, Jotun Grunt, Stoneforge Mystic/Batterskull, etc. and instead play more of a focus on disruption, destruction, and recovering which is more toward the gameplan of Pox Archetype, not B/W dark confidant aggro (Deadguy) so I'm keeping it here.
All right, I guess that's your opinion. And I just want to clarify, my post was no intention of knocking mono black Pox which is very good with the addition of Liliana, it's just to strengthen certain matchups and give a little more consistency.5) a 2nd color, in Pox I don't like it, largely because I run a lot of colorless lands and having to squeeze in lands for a 2nd color would throw off my mana base. Also with the printing of Ratchet Bomb the deck does have ways of dealing with enchantments (PKegs already did arts) so I don't see any real need. Its not instant speed but for most part it does the job.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Risk is next to none if you are empty handed when you cast it, which if your in Top-Deck mode, you likely pretty much are. Like I said, I empty my hand by turn 3 most of the time. Also, top requires shuffle effects to be useful, other wise it can hardly be seen as a draw engine. sure you can see 3 cards, but next turn its 2 of the same and 1 more. You want to take 1 now? ok, but now the top is on top again so all it did was replace itself and each time you cast it its 1 mana and each time you peek, its another. I will happily pay my 4 mana upfront and draw an extra card each turn until my opponet decides he should blow it up. Also, my acceleration to get it out is a Mox Diamond, so I pitched a land, which I have 23 and Crus-o-Worlds to get it back. Its not like I am promoting powering it out with Dark Rits.
Pox in essence plays a lot like old school LD, as long as you can keep blowing stuff up every time they drop something your fine, but every time they drop something you don't answer they start to pull ahead. We don't have enough LD to blow up every land, we don't have enough discard to keep them empty forever and certainly not if they have draw of their own, or the ability to force them to discard at instant speed. if we each draw 1 card a turn (and Top still doesn't give you more then 1 per-turn) they will in time reach a critical mass of creature count which is normally 3, sometimes even 2 creatures. Top will help you right now, BottledC will help you next turn and every turn there on.
Why give up an advantage when you don't have to? Why run a creature you then have to play around when you don't have to? The flying 1/1s will kill almost as quickly and are harder deal with. They can also pull double duty as blockers and attackers since you don't have to attack with all of them. And if its all about having a big creature I always have PTotems. Point is with TStalker, and I have used him, you have cards you have to use around him, and I don't see a point when there are plenty of other options that are as good, if not better, that don't cause you to give up an advantage. My arguement was the same 60 or so pages back when mujadaddy and Clark Kant
So really I am trading a 5/5 flying, 4 round clock, STP magnet that I could end up killing myself for a 6 turn clock that takes a Disenchant + a way to kill any 1/1s already made and I am free to play whatever I want... I'll take that trade. call it personal preference, but I don't see the logic behind it.
I think the deck you play is closer to being a DeadGuy then a Pox. I would even say your deck would likely be better if you dropped TStalker for DarkCon and replaced the BitterB with another kill condition. Reason being BitterB + DarkCon might be too much life loss and a TStalker off a DarkCon draw would hurt too much. But I think your closer to being DeadGuy then Pox. But its worth noting I've played long enough that I look at lots of decks and say thats nothing more then _____ and you just swapped out card A for B and C for D and called it something new.
On Liliana I fully agree. As for mentioning your deck, I didn't mean it as an attack, just pointing out that there comes a time when a deck is been tinkered with so much its no longer what it started out as and I thought you might be there.
05-14-2008 02:41 PM
Starting to sound like your old self again ^_^
I was there when you Clark and Muja were discussing this shit back then, good stuff. My deck has plenty of ways to shuffle, be it 5 fetches, tutor, or even smallpox/flagstones, but I hear you I'm not gonna beat on a dead horse at this point.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Thanks Mystical! Nice to hear one of my old time favorite cards is still alive and kicking, makes me want to try it out.
- I think I'll try it out in a BGW (small)Pox Rock list, don't have the balls to try double non-black spells in traditional Pox. :-P
Have you considered a singleton Crucible in your list? Being a singleton it's never a "dead" draw, the ability to recover much faster than your opponent and protecting your Tombs whilst also getting the threat of Crucible/Waste seems fairly solid for just a single card's inclusion.
Just in case somebody missed it, Pox had a fairly decent showing at Atlanta Open. ♥
Pox at 15th
Pox at 16th
I guess Nether Pox goes well in this meta.
Im building Jin15's list, seems pretty competent.
I dont like Nether Void or Sinkholes that much, that is the main reason im not building a list like those that top 16'ed.
You really need to try it. Seriously, I used to think Nether Void was a worthless piece of crap that MWS mono-black scrubs would play. Nether Void is good, it's the black Standstill, or a black CounterTop (both cards). If you resolve Nether Void, you most likely win the game. It sounds like win-more but it isn't because when you're in the topdeck war, your opponent is going to have an out because he will draw better cards than you. Not to mention, Sinkhole is great with Nether Void.
Well, ill try it on MWS.
Still, the chances i can find a single one for my deck are very, very low. Except if im getting it from magiccardmarket, still have to create an acc there.
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