Hi All,
I'm new here, but I've been reading the Dredge thread for some time now, and I've learned a great deal from all the input (especially from the ones that don't seem to have been thought through).
Regarding the so-called "Hybrid List", I'm pretty sure that this has been around for some time now, and have even placed at the top of one of the tournaments sponsored by SCG. Here's the list:
I'm unsure of whether or not this has been stated before, but it seems to me like the list above could be a good starting point for the skeleton of the Hybrid List, as it closely resembles the other Hybrid Lists that are currently being tested by many of you, and it has also been proven to be effective (at least for the metagame of the particular tourney that it owned). I'm specifically interested in hearing your opinion on whether or not the list above should be considered to be the "Standard Hybrid List" (as we more or less already have the "Standard LED" and the "Standard LED-less" builds well-defined, with very minor variations here and there; this is probably also true for the "Standard Manaless" build).
I'll be looking forward to how this discussion progresses.
Kind Regards,
Jares
That's 4eak's winning list on the SCG Atlanta. This list has been discussed over and over in this thread, when it came up. But that list was tuned in a Mental Misstep era, which got the hammer pretty good.Originally Posted by jares
Those new Hybrids aren't trying to play arround Mental Misstep anymore... They're trying to play arround Surgical Extraction which is, by far, the most used graveyard hate effect nowdays.
That's why we're not using 4eak's list anymore. The list relied heavily on Ichorid (as the usual 15-land list), where the "new hybrid" tries to diversify the threats by playing dudes like Nether Shadow, Ashen Ghoul and Bloodghast to be more resilient against Extraction.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
On Surgical Extraction. Diversifying our recurring threats is a good way to ensure you won't run out of gas. The problam that still remains, though, is that they often just Extract the first Dredger they see and if we don't have a second, it's even worse than anything else. The problem is that we can't do anything against that. Except Ground Seal, but yeah. It's still kind of hard to get that tech to work properly.
Thanks for the info. That'll keep me up-to-speed. I personally missed being able to play in the Mental Misstep era, so I have little to contribute to how that came to evolve.
Regarding Surgical Extraction, I haven't had the chance to take a real beating because of it, so at this point my level of urgency when it comes to that card is at the same level as Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, and Scavenging Ooze. I remember that, during my last tourney (placed 4th in a Top 8 split), I had a game where my opponent got to play Surgical Extraction twice in the same game, but I was still able to grind out an old-school win (which is usually the case for me in games 2 and 3). I guess that my attitude towards the GY hate that I mentioned is that these cards don't really stop us from doing what we want to - it just makes it much more difficult. In comparison, Leyline of the Void is as GG as it gets if you don't have an answer to it, so I have a greater sense of urgency for that card.
Having said that, it seems to me that, although diversifying threats looks like it's in the right direction in responding to Surgical Extraction, it might be more efficient to minimize the copies of our threats instead. Having our threats be inserted as singletons in the deck effectively minimizes the effect of a Surgical Extraction down to that of a Purify the Grave without Flashback. I'm not sure if we have enough diversity to run the deck with singletons, though, so maybe two copies might be more feasible, like so:
- 2x Ichorid
- 2x Nether Shadow
- 2x Ashen Ghoul
Applying the above configuration would also probably save us around 6 slots in the deck, which can again be used to diversify the threat base. I personally like the exploration of Ashen Ghoul, though I have yet to see a list that allows it to fit as well as Ichorid does. I'm interested to see if we can find a balance between "diversity" and "redundancy" (for lack of a better word), if that's indeed a valid means of addressing Surgical Extraction.
Regards,
Jares
That's just asking to lose to Surgical Extraction.
I was under the impression that the variations of Dredge (namely LED, LEDless, Manaless, and Hybrid) were all on equal footing, with a specific variation occasionally taking the edge over the others based on the metagame being played against. With this in mind, I was surprised to find that a discussion over which variation was "superior" was already being thrown around.
I agree with Izor in saying that "it's okay to say that a list with Phantasmagorian and without Discard Dorks is an alternative [and will have its advantages as well as disadvantages], but it's definitely wrong (or at least too soon) to claim that everyone should drop them and start playing the [Hybrid] list."
I guess that, at this point, each of us could provide our results from our rigorous testing and still come up with conflicting conclusions, however objective our methods might be. At the end of the day, though, no one argues with results, and the only way to show that one of our Dredge variations is superior in the current metagame is by OWNING the metagame - which is exactly how 4eak got his Hybrid list on the map.
Thinking of all these Dredge variations has given me an idea: it might be worthwhile to construct a table that would help contrast the strengths and weaknesses of each variation against all other variations, along with an analysis of how each strength and weakness translates to each of the other variations. I'll probably cook something up when I have the time (if it does turn out to be worth the trouble). Does anyone here have something similar to that by any chance?
Kind Regards,
Jares
I agree with Final Fortune - this the best way to maximize your opponent's Surgical Extraction.
Regarding the Dread Return count being Zero, I've found that I'm leaning more and more in the direction of minimizing my reliance to this card to win the game. I currently prefer 1x Dread Return in the MD and 1x in the SB. This is not to say that FKZ and Iona haven't had their share of glorious victories for me, for that's what the singleton DR in the SB is for. I guess what I'm saying is that, over the period of time that I've been playing Dredge, DR has evolved from being the "main win condition via Sphinx/FKZ" to now being an "extra sac outlet" (regardless of the actual DR target; of course, a monstrous Troll would be nice). Heading in this direction has allowed me to make more room in the MD, as minimizing my reliance to DR means that I can take out my DR targets (1-2 slots), and I can decrease the number of DR (from around 2-3). Playing the deck this way makes the game play a lot less like combo, though, and I do miss being able to end the game on the turn that I go-off.
Cheers,
jares
I think a lot of people are missing the point behind Dread Return: it isn't necessarily the target you're gunning for, but the ridiculous number of tokens generated from sacrificing creatures. That sort of unfair advantage generates a great deal of pressure on an opponent and in a hurry. Without it, you're looking to really naturally make tokens with Ichorid triggers and Cabal Therapies, which is fine, but isn't necessarily the best strategy when you consider what swing in tempo you're gaining from a single spell.
Getting a creature into play off of Dread Return is more like a bonus. Winning the attack step is something Dredge already has no problem doing, it's just that Dread Return helps facilitate the process at an accelerated rate in conjunction with Bridge from Below. Nothing new here.
Also, while I look forward to testing and trying out Faithless Looting, I am probably not going to shift gears in that direction. When the card becomes legal, it is going to inherently drive people everywhere to play Dredge (and other graveyard-based strategies) because of its synergy with Lion's Eye Diamond. That is also dangerous, because it is going to force you to go all in a large percentage of the time - at least to maximize its effectiveness. (For reference, I own a set of Diamonds - so price is not factoring my decision.)
Without L.E.D., it's no better than Careful Study, which I've already cut from my list. I have a feeling that widespread graveyard hate is going to come back in the coming months shifting to cards like Crypt, Leyline, and Relic to deal with the threat of L.E.D. and Faithless Looting everywhere. I'm not advocating not using L.E.D. and Looting, because it obviously has great synergy, I'm simply suggesting that there are diminishing returns for using these cards together and Dredge is an archetype that will - perhaps - drive people to run main-decked grave-hate (like Vintage) if the archetype completely blows open.
Which means dumping your hand might not be the best line of play.
You usually side out LED for games two and three, unless you're playing combo. That's pretty well known, so I'm surprised you're talking about grave hate versus LED. I like the fact that siding out LED opens up a lot of space to bring in DR targets or more recursive creatures or maybe something like Tribe if battling Crypts and Relics starts to become more frequent. I'm still unsure as I haven't even begun to construct a sideboard for the new LED version.
But that's just the point against LED, with or without Lootings.
The one and only reason LED has fallen out of favor over the last couple of years is that you usually win game 1 even without it and that you mostly bard out the LED for additional mana sources and anti hate. The logical conclusion was that we should drop LED entirely and give ourselves the best chance post board (and best consistency overall).
And if the printing of Lootings means that LED gets better (read: more consistent) where it already was best, but doesn't improve where it had its weaknesses, then I fear I'll leave my LEDs in the binder and still not play it after Lootings becomes legal. Lootings makes the fast kill even more probable. Check. Does Lootings help the mana base or the anti hate? Nope. Will we still win games 1 without LED+Lootings once Lootings is legal?. Yes!
I see that access to 4 Lootings over 2 Deep Analysis + 2 Careful Study is probably better for post board games. But there are other factors as well, like the issue that 4 out of 12 lands won't be able to cast Lootings for example.
Also, saying that Lootings makes LED builds better than all hybrid lists (or manaless as far as that is concerned) is just an invalid statement. Those decks follow a different strategy, namely concentrating on giving your opponent no ways to interact pre board. No LED list will ever be as good as Phantasmagorian lists whan it comes to that. However, LED lists could become the best lists that want to be on the play, cast their spels and win as fast as possible. And whether that will be the case noone can tell yet.
LED does improve the deck in an area it has weakness: combo. You even said so yourself in bold.
You're ignoring the fact that LED and Looting don't decrease your odds of winning game one against anybody. It may not improve it against most of the field, but it will improve game one against every other combo deck. For game one, there isn't much downside to it.
I think you're making a false assumption here. We all know that LED is going to increase its rainbow land count to support Looting. If you don't, that's the error of the deck builder.
Nobody said that.
I don't want to say that LED is bad, no matter if we have lootings or not.
I'm just not convinced that the LED-Lootings list will be the 'one and only best Dredge list in existence and anyone who plays something different is dumb'.
I didn't specifically refer to your post with my last argument, but rather to that assumption that seems to be floating around that LED will be the one best deck to play. I think that it would be too early to claim that. I'll test everything, just like everyone else I suppose, and at some point we'll see what types of the deck will be viable or not.
I'm going to change gears & talk about the sideboard for standard LED-less build. Sorry lol.
Fearie Macabre still has some merit imo.
As posted by the Hatfield Bros. in their article based on the St. Louis SCG Open, Reanimator had a dominating win percentage over Dredge.
The reasoning behind using the Macabre over Leyline against Reanimator is:
1. They usually side in (because it has some game against zombie tokens) and have access to Echoing truth which simply bounces it back to your hand and that’s all she wrote.
2. You'd have to mull into Leyline to begin with so Macabre impacts your hand in much the same way.
3. It’s uncounterable. Unlike other pieces of hate like Tormond’s Crypt, it doesn’t open itself up to counter magic.
4. There is usually the chance that you've already exhausted your Macabre if your opponent chose to reanimate another backbreaking creature like Blazing Archon instead of Elesh Norn. To this effect Macabre offers itself as food for your Ichorids. On a more rarer circumstance you may even be able to recur your Macabre by playing Golgari Thug, sacrificing him to say Cabal Therapy and then using its triggered ability to put the Macabre back on top of your library.
In my brief playtesting I managed to extract a few things:
- Cephalid Coliseum is great!
- Slowing the game down via Cabal Therapy and Fearie Macabre is what you want to be doing.
- Overbearing them with Ichorids is the road to victory.
Now of course this will still be an abysmal matchup, but I think Fearie is the best type of fighter for the situation. To this degree I was even considering boarding in a couple of Chain of Vapor which would still have merit as a way to deal (temporarily) with Leyline of the Void (in other matchups) while still providing you with some type of out against reanimated creatures. Meh more testing has to be done.
Or of course we can just choose not to play dredge all together as it currently has a weak matchup against Reanimator, G/W Maverick, and RUG Tempo all of which are currently really popular. One thing to note though is that Dredge has a positive matchup against U/W Stoneblade which is the most popular deck imo.
dredge needs a big kick in the ass before I choose to play it again other than with friends.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
I guess it's easy to be distracted when you look at what a card does rather than what the card costs. This is probably why choosing the preferred MD DR target used to be the craze, until people slowly realized that the actual DR target isn't as important as being able to sac your own creatures. This is not to say that choosing your DR targets carefully, if any, isn't important - it's just secondary to why DR is in the deck in the first place. Nowadays, I use DR targets only when I'm faced with any of the following situations:
- Being able to put a DR target into play virtually wins me the game.
- I'll be needing a DR target for its utility in handling heavily disadvantageous match-ups.
FKZ is still the most fun of all the DR targets though!
Regarding LED, it seems to me like this argument has remained the same ever since this archetype began recreating itself in the variations that we now have: it's always been about Consistency VS Explosiveness. Until the LED build addresses its consistency problems, or until the LEDless build's fundamental turn becomes the first turn, these two variations will always have the Consistency VS Explosiveness trade-off that only the other will be able to address.
It will be interesting to see the influx of Dredge players as soon as Faithless Looting becomes legal. We all expect this to happen because the synergy between LED and Faithless Looting is much too obvious - though we will still have to wait and see if this synergy is powerful enough to bring Dredge to the next level (something that I wouldn't put my money on).
Kind Regards,
jares
Shown below is a link to one of the best Dredge articles I've read, and is the closest thing to a "Dredge Manual" that I can find:
Somewhere in that article, it states the following (I've taken the liberty of editing it for purposes of context):
"Lion's Eye Diamond... speeds up a deck that hardly ever loses due to slowness, and in return makes it more draw-dependent and vulnerable to basically every kind of disruption. Put another way, it fixes what ain't broke and then introduces real problems.
If you cut lands to make room for it, you will mulligan significantly more because LED cannot provide the mana for both a discard effect on one turn and a draw effect on turn two next unless you are playing [Faithless Looting] or the draw effect is specifically Cephalid Coliseum, and you did not mulligan. This is to say nothing of the games where you need the mana but cannot afford to pitch your hand or need to be able to hardcast creatures past turn one—extra Imps, Tribes, Narcomoebas, or Thugs—to win.
If you do not cut lands to make room for it, LED becomes the worst discard outlet in your deck. Breakthrough is otherwise the worst (because of their shared downside: mandating that you pitch your entire hand rather than just the correct cards, which is bad in game one and horrendous after the opponent brings in graveyard wipes), but compared to Breakthrough, LED has the dubious differentiators of costing zero (nice), providing mana at the wrong time (awkward), and not being a draw-four (ouch)."
Now, by no means is LED a bad card (in fact, it's a very very good card!) - it's just that the statements above simply enumerate the undeniably inherent drawbacks of using LED in dredge. From my point of view, at the end of the day, that's the price we've got to pay for Explosiveness.
Having discussed LED in Dredge, it would only be fair to also look into what Faithless Looting also brings to the table:
- Faithless Looting increases the consistency of LED Dredge because, unlike Deep Analysis, it can be cast from your hand.
- Faithless Looting is expected to take the slots of Deep Analysis and Careful Study (a total of 6 slots on average), and because it's essentially 2 cards in one, LED Dredge will be able to save some room for other deck pieces that can help address the consistency issue (that's like 8 cards for the price of 4 slots). As of the moment, only Cabal Therapy is able to provide some sense of card advantage that way. It's also worth noting, though, that Careful Study is blue, and can be cast using Cephalid Coliseum, while Faithless Looting cannot.
- Faithless Looting, unlike Deep Analysis, also doubles as a discard outlet.
Additional Notes:
- Will it make sense to play LED Dredge without DR targets?
- If DR targets, specifically FKZ, are a must-have, then the inclusion of these cards might have to be considered in their weight on the consistency of the deck.
I'll be looking forward to your thoughts on these points.
Kind Regards,
jares
My point was/is that pre Mental Misstep Mana Dredge with MD Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe and SB Ancient Grudge was a deck that was designed to confront the preferred hate cards of its day i.e. Tormod's Crypt and that the pre Mental Misstep Mana Dredge deck hasn't properly adapted to the current metagame of diversifed SB hate or Surgical Extractions. It's definitely inferior because of it in my opinion, and it's also mechanically inferior to Manaless Dredge or Hybrid Dredge because it dedicates 7+ MD slots as discard outlets and interacts with counterspells needlessly compared to Phantasmagorian, which I'm pretty sure is just inferior when those 7+ slots are no longer addressing hate.
Basically, the only way Putrid Imp/Tireless Tribe Dredge is relevant is if your metagame hasn't progressed and you're still facing 4xTormod's Crypt game 2.
The arguments for LED/No LED haven't changed at all IMO, it's just a question of whether or not you want to increase your game 1 win percentage across the board for SB space. Playing LED has nothing to do with whether or not you play FKZ, just milling your deck and Cabal Therapying quicker is good enough. I do disagree tho' that Dread Return targets aren't relevant, in my opinion they're extremely relevant because Golgari Grave Troll is getting RFGed by Surgical Extraction like its his job and Phantasmagorian isn't exactly life threatening.
Just a small input on LED Dredge, maybe I can change some of your minds about them, yet in the end it will allways be a matter of opinion.
Lets start with the list I'm currently testing for about 1 month now:
4City
4Mine
4Colliseum
4PImp
4Ichorid
4Moeba
4Troll
4Imp
4Thug
4Bridge
4Brakthrough
4Study
4Looting
4LED
4Therapy
-No DR and / or DR targets in the maindeck?
As for any argument about maindeck DR targets I can only repeat myself and many others in the thread: If your meta doesn't require you to use them then don't . They take room in your maindeck and will make your opening hands more clumsy.
As for the abstinence of DR:
While it provides a great sac outlet and, on a sidenote, also returns a dude back to the game it has proofen itself to be unnecessary in the maindeck. Ichorids and Therapies generate enought Zombie token by their own. However you can allways cut 1 Ichorid for 1 DR in the maindeck.
Also bear in mid that this is only the maindeck, noone said that you should stop running DR/targets alltogether, or that they aren't usefull g2/3.
-Only 8 Rainbowlands:
If there is one sin that you could make in LED or LEDless Dredge (not talking about Manaless or the hybrid lists) then it's cutting the number of Cephalid Colliuseum.
-But how can you support 4 Lootings with only 8 rainbow lands? Keep in mind that you don't allways have to cast Looting with your lands ( you also won't cast it with your LED's from time to time) and your deck doesn't rely on them either.
I also challenge you to test the list for a couple of games, you might be suprised how often you get to keep a good hand that does indeed include a rainbow land.
-You might not need to cast your Lootings, but how can you support your sideboard hate with only 8 rainbow lands?
Have you seen the board yet? No? Then wait please.
-Why should I run this over the traditional LEDless Dredge or over a Hybrid / Manaless list?
Nowadays the traditional LEDless list has a hard stand, because you have to fight decks like reanimator, who can just slam an Elesh Norn on the table by turn 2 or Maverick, who tend to run 2+ Ooze in the maindeck + Knight / Bok. The key to those matchups is simple: Speed. With LED Dredge you are able to win against those decks, even if you are on the draw and even if they got such a strong hand that allows them to shut you down by turn 2.
As for Manaless:
If you play in a meta where Manaless is a good choice (i.e. just a few decks with Leyline, just a few number of Maverick but a lot of blue aggro control) then you should keep playing it, because you won't gain much by playing with spells than can actually be Dazed, Forced, etc.
As for the Hybrid list:
I hope you guys will have succes with your idea, yet I'm not totally convinced about some of the choices or about the general game plan.
Well I guess thats all their is to the mainboard, now it's getting interesting.
But lets first take a look at the good ol days:
Do you remember the time where LED Dredge used to have 2 Citadells and 2 Tribes in the board? The time where you had to cut Deep Analysis every time you cutted your LED's, because the card itself was nearly uncastable alone?
Welcome to 2012.
Lets take in mind that their are a couple of matchups where you want to board your LED's out, in order to to side in various answers to their hate.
Unlike Deep Analysis you don't need to to board out Looting with them, because on it self the card is still very easy to cast.
Now lets finally take a look at the sideboard:
2Citadell
3Grudge
3Claim
1Ray
6Meta slots
-Thats all ? No fancy new tech, no obvious bombs, just a plain and simple board that was used since the stoneage?
I hope you didn't expected anything else, because even after Looting the general gameplan won't change, thus the board won't change as well.
While the hate nowadays is much more diverse we should still run a couple of the usual suspects, i.e. Grudge to deal with fancy equiments, Relics, Crypts or various other Artefacts, as well as Claim/Ray to deal with Leyline and various other Enchantments or Artefacts.
The meta slots can be various: Leylines, DR + targets, Coffin Purge / Purify the Grave, Faerie Macabre, Firestorm,etc.
Well thats all there is to say.
Some other notes:
-Will Looting push Dredge to a point where we have to fear some bannings?
Dredge has and will allways be a very cheap deck, thus you will allways see enough scrubs who play this deck and fail with it. We also need to remind ourself that sometimes our opponent will draw the nuts and sometimes the deck will just shit on our faces.
-Surgical Extraction will eat you!
As for any other piece of hate we need to take in mind that the average legacy player doesn't know shit about playing his hate correct. You should never lose to a single Extraction, just like you should never lose to a single Relic or Crypt. Remember what you have learned over the years in fighting various pieces of hate.
-But Feldman said ....
Oh shut up, will you......
So long
cheers
Felidae_
Our music means nothing, except for what it means to
you.
I like DR+FKZ/Sphinx because it allows turn 1 and turn 2 kills. This is important because the less time your give your opponent, the less draws he gets to draw into extra hate. Not transforming your graveyard into a huge swarm of Zombies asap seems tricky to say the least to me. At what turn on average do you have ~7 zombie tokens?
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
@ Felidae
I think you have described the advantages of that list very well. I have tested this exact list as well (although not enough yet, I admit). While the good points you made are generally true, there are also a few things I didn't like so much.
- Turn 1 Surgical Extraction can be a blowout for this type of Dredge, especially if you go for LED on turn 1. The argument I heard was that with LED you're too fast for Crapcaster and just win before Extraction becomes relevant. The problem is if they extract your only Dredger in resp to your draw effect with your hand already discarded. You don't always get the hand with land, draw effect, LED and at least two different Dredgers. You also don't need to have those hands all the time, but if you don't, then you aren't faster than the LEDless lists any more and lose that advantage.
- I'm just not comfortable with only 8 rainbow lands, even with LEDs. This might be a personal thing, but I really hate taking mulligans because I don't have a land. And this happened to me significantly more than with any other Dredge list (LEDless, Hybrid, etc).
- I'm also an advocate for at least 1 DR in the maindeck, because I just really want to find that sac outlet at some point. Like Hollywood said above, I also don't care about the dude I reanimate, I just want the sac outlet. You don't always draw one CT for each Narcomoeba. But as you said, it's not too hard to fit one or two DRs in. What I've also considered is cutting PImp entirely and adding 2 lands, 2 DR, 1 DR target, cutting Ichorids down to 3. That's slightly less consistent, but more explosive. PImp doesn't play such an important role in this type of list, the only times where I sometimes miss him is post board.
Also, I just remembered another advantage of LED over LEDless that you didn't mention: Going off via LED on turn 1 on the draw is Daze-proof. This can be a factor. The discard dorks have their trouble getting past Daze on the draw.
All in all the list you posted is undoubtedly good. I just think that hybrid and usual LEDless (with discard dorks) is also good, even after F.Lootings comes out. I'll have to do a lot of testing until I find my favorite build...
There are currently 2 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 2 guests)
