Unfortunately, after all the theorycrafting and testing behind it, it just doesn't work as planned.Originally Posted by fizzles
With all the tempo decks running around (and no one in my meta is playing Merfolk anymore), would Standstill be an option again?
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
Maybe it is just me, but Standstill seems pretty awful in an environment where you are seeing tons of Delvers and Stifles. You can't really afford to sit under a Standstill if they drop a T1 Delver.
The problem with counting on Ruinator against red is this:
Any red deck is going to be siding in Pyroblasts/REBs against us and, honestly we just don't have a great response to that. It doesn't matter if we have a 5/6 flyer if they get to run R: Wreck target blue deck. Merfolk needs the metagame to shift away from Red to be Tier 1 again or a new merfolk to fill in a gap in the deck (I am sure one will get printed at some point). We are simply too slow compared to the Delver decks right now.He's casting Aether Vials. I'm siding in Red Blasts/Pyroclasms. How is this still a deck?
Hydroblast anyone?
Against a two or three color deck, Hydroblast simply isn't doing as much as their Pyroblast does against us. At that point you are basically playing a glorified Dispel.
The format is simply too hostile for Merfolk right now. The dominance of fast creature based strategies means that a mono-U deck with no removal isn't exactly well positioned. Hopefully the metagame will follow a predictable cycle with combo coming in strong to punish creature decks then control following suit at which point Merfolk could be Tier 1 again (unless another deck manages to do what we did better).
Hi guys,
Im playing a mono black aggro, but ive been playing that for so long that im kinda bored :P
So i would like to try merfolk.
In my mono b, two cards that are always making the difference in almost every match, those are the 4 copies of dark confidant and the 4 copies of Jitte. The first keeps my hand always full and the second makes almost every creature count (Carnophage/ zombie from Sarcomacy and Nantuko) and shines in some difficult situations.
So, i was wondering if anyone has tried Confidant and Jitte in mainboard, i would really like to run them both x4.
Thnx in advance for you opinion, i really appreciate it =).
ps: I believe the black splash could provide some solution against the bishass maverick :x
Last edited by LevelOne; 01-10-2012 at 02:52 PM.
I also played suicide black but creatures are better than that these days so no reason to help your opponent in killing you.
I would use black splash in merfolk for Deathmark, Leyline and Darkblast in side and remove some pressure from Dismember in main.
Waiting for someone to "introduce" Snapcaster to our deck with Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Stifle and those splash targets.
Adam Cai played creature deck with blue without Brainstorm and FoW, maybe we could try some of that nonsensehttp://www.mtgpulse.com/event/4984#65629
I don't think a black splash is going to solve any of the deck's fundamental weaknesses. It just waters the deck down and reduces redundancy. One of the greatest strengths of Merfolk is how well everything works together.
I have been reading through this thread and the one at MTGSalvation, and there has been a lot of discussion surrounding Stifle, but I have never found a satisfactory explanation for why it isn't run as a 4-of MD. It would make sense given that we are an aggro-control deck and rely on tempo to win games. Additionally it is live throughout the entire game unlike Daze and Spell Pierce (Spell Snare is still a hard counter but obviously its strength diminishes as the game progresses). The downside is that it requires us to leave U open which can be a challenge (especially in games without a Vial) and it isn't the best topdeck.
Looking at the top 8 finishes from Folk in the past few months shows that none of the winning lists are maindecking Stifle. I accept that it might not be the right choice for the deck, but I just want to understand why.
On another note, Phantasmal Image has been pretty awful for me lately with the amount of Mother of Runes running around. Granted, this is just playing on Cockatrice (where scrubs and SCG netdecks abound) so Image may be better in my local meta.
I run 3x Stifle and 3x Surgical Extraction (SB) and they both have multiple applications vs different decks. My best fun use for Stifle is to have it shut off an opponents first Fetchland (especially vs those guys that have greedy mana bases, and use 8+ fetchlands with only 8-ish true mana producing lands in their deck). Coupled with a 2-life cast Surgical Extraction it has been pretty good for crippling some opponents mana base and establishing board presence even if I have to have a turn 1, Island - go, to set up the rest. I do not think that Stifle is Main deck worthy; but it certainly has merit vs enough decks to warrant some SB consideration.
Phantasmal Image is hit or miss but most often HiT for me. If your opponent has a Mother out, then lure the Mother first and use the Image when the mother is tapped. Also, Umezawa's Jitte wrecks mothers really fast, so consider them for use (at least as a 2x in the SB). Image is good though as copying a Bob is insane, or copy your own Merrow Reejerey to pump more and use more tap/untap effects when other Merfolk are cast, etc. Hell you can also Copy Legends as a form of removal, etc. He is and will not always be the best thing to have in hand; but I do think that he is still MD worthy in most versions of the list. PS-- hw is what I am looking at to remove in regard to adding Skaab Ruinator to the list though, as I can't see removing any other creature at this point (other than maybe Kira).
Cheers
image doesn't target so I don't see how mother is a problem? She can also only target creatures they control. Am I noob or something?
The problem with stifle has always been the same. First merfolk only runs 12-13 islands. And if you are holding back to stifle and the fetch/what ever doesn't happen tempo yourself out of the game. So you hold back for stifle when you should be playing vial, drawing cards off silvergill, playing commander or standstill. etc etc
It is one of those cards that can be amazing, kinda/sometime. But in Merfolk playing your fish is more important imo
Older versions of Merfolk actually used to run Stifle. However, I think with the printing of better creatures (Coralhelm, Phantasmal Image, etc.) and removal we can actually use like Dismember, people have been opting more for that route.
I've also tried stifle before. The problem with stifle is you want stifle in the early game, ie. the first 1-3 turns.
However, with this deck, you want to constantly tap out in those first 1-3 turns. By the time you have mana left over, stifle is useless.
Thats why I'm using spell pierce in its place. A hard counter of a 2 CMC is great whether its early, mid, or late part of the game.
Good sugesstion - playing Chalice of the Void vs all those tempo decks.. you turn off 80% of the deck - best deal with pyro/rebs, bolts, delvers if not played already etc.. etc.. We running only Vials which if not sticked turn 1 its useless mostly, and cursecatchers..
Fixed.
Edit: This is true, don't trust people on Cockatrice to have any idea what they are talking about when it comes to rules.
So essentially Stifle isn't worth running because the turns where it has its maximum value are turns where you want to be tapping out anyway? This makes sense to me, especially compared to RUG tempo where they are playing far fewer permanents and don't tap out nearly as much in the early game. It seems like it could be strong out of the SB, but honestly 4x Wasteland is enough to punish shaky manabases and it doesn't do as much to shore up our bad MUs.
I like the idea of running both 3x Spell Snare and 2x Kira main, but your list is 61 cards. Did you make a cut somewhere to make that work?
I have been thoroughly impressed with Daze but given that it is best in the early game I see why people want to run 3. However that lessens our chance of seeing one in the opening hand (where it seems best). Do people think it is best to maximize your chance of seeing it in your opening grip or to cut one to lessen your chances of topdecking it when it is a dead card?
Mother can only target your own creatures. Still doesn't work.
That's the Oracle text on Mother of Runes. You can only target creatures you control with it...
Yep. That is what I thought too, but after being angrily argued down on Cockatrice I doubted myself as I couldn't find a relevant thread/ruling on the web. I guess I should trust my intuition instead of random scrubs on Cockatrice.
So back to the matter at hand. 3 or 4 Daze in the main? If you have 3 in the main do you run the 4th in your SB?
@apistat_commander -- wow you actually noticed that I run 61 cards in my deck, well done as most people don't notice that. I do run 61 by the way, and have been doing that for a very very long time. I am an old guy and I know all the math odds that the 1 extra card in the deck add to my percentages on drawing a specific card, etc. I am fine with it and I will not be cutting it to 60 but I don't push that on anyone as it is better to always run the fewest cards possible in order to achieve the most consistancy in the deck.
Now in regard to 3x daze or 4x. I think Merfolk can get away with 3x Daze because of the 4x Cursecatcher to go with their counter-suit (4x Force of Will, 3x Spell Snare/Pierce). Remember that you need 11 cards in the counter-suit to make sure you see at least one in your opener; so if you include the Cursecatcher you have some 14 cards that work the counter-suit. I would 100% recommend that you use 4x Daze should you be only running 2x Spell Snare/Pierce in the deck, or if you cut a Cursecatcher as some people do. And yes, having only 3x Daze does make it less likely to hit one early; but again 4x FoW + 4x CC +4x Daze does give you the 11 cards needed to consistantly hit one in your opener. Oh and I don't run a 4th Daze in teh SB; but I do have one sleaved and available for those times when the Meta looks/sounds like you need a larger counter-suit overall. And in that case the 2x P-Images and 1x Spell Snare get cut to fit in Daze #4 and 2x Spell Pierce.
PS, in regard to Mother of Runes, I think the idiots on Cackatrice are also on MWS as I have also had some discussion about the target-abilty of that mother %^&*.
All good discussion guys and thanks for getting me thinking about the numbers, etc.
No worries - here's the text on Hydroblast, btw:
"Choose one — Counter target spell if it's red; or destroy target permanent if it's red."
See the difference there? Hydroblast says it can target X, then do something if it's red, whereas most things like Mother of Runes put a limitation on what you can target.
I really think this is a personal preference thing.
Daze is something you really want to see early, so playing as many as you can maximizes your chances of doing so. However, it's also a card that you don't want to see late, so playing as many as you can also maximizes the drawback of it.
Yeah, I decided on three in the main. I have started to get a feel for just how often this deck goes into topdeck mode so I wanted to focus on increasing the quality of my topdecks. Maybe I am playing the deck too aggressively, but I tend to run out of steam fairly quickly against the aggro decks.
I see that you are from Houston and I was wondering if you knew anything about the Austin meta. I have heard that the Austin meta is mostly aggro (I have heard RUG and the Rock mentioned) and almost no combo.
Here is my list:
Creatures(24):
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Cursecatcher
4x Merrow Reejerey
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Coralhelm Commander
2x Phantasmal Image
2x Kira, Great Glass Spinner
Spells(11):
4x Force of Will
3x Daze
2x Spell Snare
2x Dismember
Artifacts(4):
4x Aether Vial
Lands(21):
4x Mutavault
4x Wasteland
13x Island
Sideboard:
3x Pithing Needle
2x Dismember
2x Spell Pierce
3x Submerge
3x Relic of Progenitus
2x Umezawa’s Jitte
I have two main questions. Should I go all in and dump the Spell Pierces for more things to run against aggro (Hydroblast, Threads of Disloyalty, Mind Harness, etc.) or is that going to kill my game against combo? Also, which aggro match ups are best for bringing in Jitte? Anything with Stoneforge or only slower decks?
Last edited by apistat_commander; 01-13-2012 at 10:57 PM.
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