[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[Rizso]

I see what you are trying but I wouldnt splash for Goyf. Also its fun as hell baiting dazes with your t1 moxes on the draw. Really dont feel that green gives much to the deck tbh. Not without changing the whole deck to the rock / Junk or some other GWB colored deck. Almost sound like you want us to move over to GW-Maverick :P

The reason to go walkers and tokens is it combat the Snapcaster + removal that so many decks are playing at the moment. Im already running the token list with 2 Elspeth, 3 blossom, 2 blade Splicerd as my token Generators. IMO walkers are just a much larger threat then goyfs when you can clear the way for them with discard spells and keep them safe with multple black or white removal / sweepers.

Apart from the mana and cards that are above 1cc are cards in the deck that gives card advantech.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Sorry I'll admit I've been practicing so many games Maverick, I'm starting to think like only that.

I agree with what you said about walkers, I've been having trouble vs UW (well, who isn't everybody runs it :/) and it'd also be helpful against Jace, too. I've had a pretty reasonable time dealing with snapcaster, Batterskull, Geist, MOM, etc. but it seems like any game they land a Jace It's almost auto loss. So yeah, something that can infinitely pump out tokens it'd have a harder time dealing with once it hits play. That's one weakness of those decks, they don't really have much of any answer to enchantments like Bitterblossom or Sylvan Library if you can get them out. They seem to have a lot of answers to creatures though. It's strange when Goyf is becoming more of a liability, is Legacy turning vintage?

[Rizso]

Its that thoes 6/7 vanila creature for 2 mana just isnt enought for legacy atm! :P

Snapcaster really did hurt most creature decks alot, its pretty much the reason why Geist of Saint Traft has exploded in playability in legacy. So its not that strange maverick is also moving away from Tarmogoyfs in favor of the ooze wich kind counter snapcaster mages.

[paladin3056]

Intangible Virtue is hard to pass up, I had been testing a token version even before Sorin, and having a Bitterblossom combined with Intangible Virtue gives you a 2/2 vigilance, flying faerie which is nearly comparable to a Serra Avenger, plus with swords I have a 4/4 pro color vigilance and flying and works even better with Jitte which would generate twice as normal counters, makes your opponents think twice before attacking you if he doesn't want to make your jitte even bigger. The other good thing is that he makes our germ token into a 5/5 vigilance lifelink creature as well.

Had a couple of games where when I drop this combination gives an autowin, its hard to beat if my opponent can't attack without being chump blocked by my faeries who are also attacking as well.

But now with Sorin it gives my deck a whole new weapon to beat creatures and planeswalkers and at the same time generate more tokens, having 2/2 vigilance, lifelink tokens would net you 4 life in total (that is if you attacked unblocked and block next turn) but yeah that is a huge life swing in our favor.

[Wilkin]

Intangible Virtue is hard to pass up, I had been testing a token version even before Sorin, and having a Bitterblossom combined with Intangible Virtue gives you a 2/2 vigilance, flying faerie which is nearly comparable to a Serra Avenger, plus with swords I have a 4/4 pro color vigilance and flying and works even better with Jitte which would generate twice as normal counters, makes your opponents think twice before attacking you if he doesn't want to make your jitte even bigger. The other good thing is that he makes our germ token into a 5/5 vigilance lifelink creature as well.

Had a couple of games where when I drop this combination gives an autowin, its hard to beat if my opponent can't attack without being chump blocked by my faeries who are also attacking as well.

But now with Sorin it gives my deck a whole new weapon to beat creatures and planeswalkers and at the same time generate more tokens, having 2/2 vigilance, lifelink tokens would net you 4 life in total (that is if you attacked unblocked and block next turn) but yeah that is a huge life swing in our favor.

How many token generating cards do you run? Bitterblossom and Elspeth (and you can run Sorin 2.0 now )? IMHO, in order for Intangible Virtue to be awesome you'll need to run A LOT of token generation.

I think Virtue to be a little win more because for example Bitterblossom on its own usually puts a lot of pressure on your opponent. Same with Elspeth and Now Sorin. Also, you could run into a situation where you have virtue out and no tokens...

I say that because I run equipment and at times I have equipment out and no creature to put it on. Virtue could be the same thing, IMO where it's out and it does nothing.

[Shawon]

I kept thinking about the new Sorin card in Dark Ascension that I built up a list trying to break his synergy with him and Bitterblossom. Here's what I came up with, after some bad attempts:


4 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
4 [R] Scrubland
3 [ON] Polluted Delta
4 [ZEN] Swamp (4a)
1 [ZEN] Plains (2)
1 [A] Tundra
1 [R] Underground Sea
3 [EVE] Fetid Heath
1 [SHM] Sunken Ruins
4 [RAV] Dark Confidant
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MOR] Bitterblossom
4 [IA] Swords to Plowshares
4 [LRW] Thoughtseize
3 [DKA] Sorin, Lord of Innistrad
1 [MBS] Sword of Feast and Famine
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
1 [NPH] Batterskull
4 [FE] Hymn to Tourach (4)
3 [ISD] Liliana of the Veil
2 [AP] Vindicate
SB: 3 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [CS] Counterbalance
SB: 3 [UL] Engineered Plague
SB: 3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
SB: 1 [MR] Ancient Den
SB: 4 [M11] Leyline of the Void


The sideboard is kinda freaky, but I like the concept of using Enlightened Tutor to set up a CounterTop against combo. It may not be necessary but it felt cool to try. Haven't tried it against combo though.

The strength of this deck is being very threat-dense, or topdeck-heavy. With a relatively low curve and full playsets of Bob, Stoneforge, and Bitterblossom, with 3 Chrome Mox to boot, this deck can make some must-answer plays fast and easily.

I guess the only debate about using Sorin is that he is arguably weaker than Elspeth. I built this deck with Sorin in mind and originally I wanted to make it triple color so I could justify running Sorin over Elspeth, but now I've just reverted to BW and the deck has an easy time reaching WW so I guess I don't have a reason to prefer Sorin over Elspeth due to color reasons. I don't know, I like Sorin's ability to play defense, but I don't know if it's more needed than Elspeth being able farther out of burn range and being a better offense.

Thoughts?

[Rizso]

Whats the blue mana for?? Counterbalance really?

I would split between elspeth and Sorin, myself thinking of 2 Sorin 2 Elspeths. Also think 25 mana sources is some lands to many. Also that board of yours have wasted so many spaces. Counterbalance, tops, artifactland? Tutor or Leyline is fine but not both.. Also 3 plagues are to many when using the tutor. Also imo the blue splash puts an unneccesary strain on the mana base. Would much rather use wastelands, there are many annoying lands in the format atm. Tower of Magistrate, Maze of Ith as well the power to color screw greedy manabases. IMO there is alot better anti combo cards then counterbalance without a counterbalance shell.

For Intangible Virtue its just not that great tbh. It really doesnt do anything alone. And would require alot more then just bitterblossom and walkers for token generators.

I have play tested the Spectral Procession version of the token deck. While i like the card it makes bob alot more dangerous and forces to use Top. TBH I dont like the top at all in the deck. Its slow and take up mana, mana I would much rather use to develope the board or use to equip with. Picking between bob and spectral isnt a a hard choice exactly.

Cant wait til I get my hands on a pair of Sorins!

[yutang]

Rizso, have you considered using all 3 planeswalkers (Sorin, Elspeth and Lili) in the same deck. Say we have 5 slots open for planeswalkers, what ratio would you use them in?

I'm thinking
2 Sorin
2 Elspeth
1 Lili

or should it be 1 Elspeth and 2 Lili? It seems strong to be planeswalker heavy in a build with Bitterblossom

[Rizso]

Yes, i have considered Liliana as well a Gideon in the board. I am very open to try out new cards for the deck. Thought in the current meta i dont like 2cc or 3cc singeltarget removal. I cut vidicate for this very reason.

[Mystical_Jackass]

And we get another toy...

Vault of the Archangel
Land
T: add to your mana pool.
2T: creatures you control gain deathtouch and lifelink till the end of turn.

Yay, mystics and bobs can potentially take down Knights & Goyfs late game, and I'd love to see a token kill one too. This looks like a solid 1-of addition, which isn't horrible if you run a couple Urborgs.

[Rizso]

I really do like that land thought not sure its legacy material. Making every attack and block for my opponent is pretty awesome thought. If added to the deck it would be added as a spell not as a land. Will probly try it out even in legacy, threat of activation in that land is just so strong.

[Einherjer]

Honestly...what are you guys doing? First of all: Does Deadguy Ale have problems in the Late-Game? Rarely... Why adding lands and stuff that are only good in the Lategame - there is hardly a deck that is a threat for us once we reached the lategame safely - only NicFit and Maverick may be... I mean honestly... this land is no legacy to be honest...


But the Sorin and all the tokens list do look good :)

Greetings

[Wilkin]

I really do like that land thought not sure its legacy material. Making every attack and block for my opponent is pretty awesome thought. If added to the deck it would be added as a spell not as a land. Will probly try it out even in legacy, threat of activation in that land is just so strong.

I don't like the land for legacy... 4 mana is quite a lot to activate. Also, Deadguy already runs quite a few lands that produce colorless mana.

Eg. I run 4 wastelands in a 20 land deck. I don't even have space to run Volrath's Stronghold. If I can't fit in that card, there's no way I can fit in that new land.

I like Sorin, not sure if I'm gonna use him. Liliana IMHO is better because it can come out a turn earlier and is awesome vs creature light decks (and even does well vs Maverick from the games I've played) and vs non-graveyard combo decks. I've locked out games where I would thoughtseize first turn and then play Liliana 2nd turn (w chrome mox).

[paladin3056]

How many token generating cards do you run? Bitterblossom and Elspeth (and you can run Sorin 2.0 now )? IMHO, in order for Intangible Virtue to be awesome you'll need to run A LOT of token generation.

I think Virtue to be a little win more because for example Bitterblossom on its own usually puts a lot of pressure on your opponent. Same with Elspeth and Now Sorin. Also, you could run into a situation where you have virtue out and no tokens...

I say that because I run equipment and at times I have equipment out and no creature to put it on. Virtue could be the same thing, IMO where it's out and it does nothing.

Its true that it would require a lot of token producers to make intangible really useful so I played around the deck to make do so, I also added in chrome mox to make use of intangible if I ever draw it in my opening hand and I have no token producers.

I don't agree with intangible being a win more, it has already become quite difficult to win with just faerie tokens alone now with UW decks stuffing in SFM with the usual equipment package. Intangible gives the tokens an extra edge which our creatures definitely lack.

For Intangible Virtue its just not that great tbh. It really doesnt do anything alone. And would require alot more then just bitterblossom and walkers for token generators.

At first glance it doesn't look great at all, but really we can't just discount a card without testing of course. If I see that Intangible proves to be useless as most of you think then I would be moving on to another strategy, nothing wrong with play testing it first before dismissing.

On other news, gravedigger cage is now our new overall dredge (although doesn't stop the onslaught of zombie tokens) and reanimator hoser, stops GSZ from playing singleton goyfs and stops annoying snapcasters from abusing graveyards. And all that in one card, wizards must be giving us new arsenal to stop graveyard and library mechanics and it just costs only freaking mana.

check the link here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=385201

[yutang]

Another card for this deck: Midnight Haunting with 1B Flashback in DKA. definitely a 2-3 of in the token decks and can replace Spectral Procession.

[paladin3056]

Another card for this deck: Midnight Haunting with 1B Flashback in DKA. definitely a 2-3 of in the token decks and can replace Spectral Procession.

Definitely better than Spectral Procession, needs to be countered twice to be stopped, and doesn't cause 6 damage when flipped with Bob. Has a better card advantage than its predecessors and can be discarded with LotV to gain tempo. Too bad this is also affected by then new hoser.

[makochman]

Definitely better than Spectral Procession, needs to be countered twice to be stopped, and doesn't cause 6 damage when flipped with Bob. Has a better card advantage than its predecessors and can be discarded with LotV to gain tempo. Too bad this is also affected by then new hoser.

People will not be bringing Grafdiffer's Cage against us, it does not affect us in any other way. If they do, it's good news for us. In fact those of us that use Enlightened Tutor toolboxes could use that card. In black, Extirpates and Perishes seem better though.

The new Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, is indeed a very welcome addition to the Deadguy arsenal. It's easier on the manabase than Spectral Procession. I must say I am more excited about it than about Sorin.

[paladin3056]

People will not be bringing Grafdiffer's Cage against us, it does not affect us in any other way. If they do, it's good news for us. In fact those of us that use Enlightened Tutor toolboxes could use that card. In black, Extirpates and Perishes seem better though.

The new Spectral Procession, Lingering Souls, is indeed a very welcome addition to the Deadguy arsenal. It's easier on the manabase than Spectral Procession. I must say I am more excited about it than about Sorin.

I actually meant when we side it in against our opponent we won't be able to get its full potential, but should just be a minor drawback I think. I would definitely use Grafdigger Cage in my enlightened tool box, it can do so much against my enemy, but of course I won't remove the usual package.

Yeah easier on the mana base and flashback makes it even better than Spectral Procession it gives 4 for 1 if you think about it. As for Sorin, I still like him, but the price on him is preventing me from getting any of it unless I get it from a booster or a box.

[Rizso]

At least you wont be needed a playset of Sorin for the deck :P Only need about 2 or so.

[TsumiBand]

Very yes to Lingering Souls being better than Spectral Procession. Basic Plains are not the greatest land for this deck to deal with and it's nice to be able to run Wasteland without kind of flinching at that ugly 2/W mana symbol. For as often as Spectral Procession would cost 2WW anyway, Lingering Souls will be (2W, 1B) and if you're running it to abuse Cabal Therapy will leave you with +1 token.

edit - ugh wait, it's 2W, flashback 1B. I dunno about that.