[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[KobeBryan]

Reanimator because all of your reanimation spells are dead - creatures cannot come into play from the graveyard, so Exhume, Reanimate and Animate Dead don't work. You're only avenue is Show and Tell and then you're no longer playing a Reanimator deck.

Mav needs GSZ to pull out silver bullets and fatties.

Snapcaster decks aren't dead, they'll just replace Snapcaster and alter the build. UW will pick up Black or Counterbalance and Thresh will pick up Nimble Mongoose.

Dredge is dead because their major method of making zombie tokens is Narcomoeba and Ichorid. From what I understand about the rules, neither of these cards will work. Additionally Dread Return is a major token builder/fattie reanimator in Dredge, and this will no longer work as well. Also, Cabal Therapy is dead, another major avenue to fight combo/control and make zombie tokens.

So how is this card any different than the current hate out there? Reanimator already knows how to deal with the current hate. The same cards are applicable.

[majikal]

Wait... why didn't anyone tell me that GSZ was the strategy of this deck? I've just been casting dudes and turning them sideways! I've been doing it all wrong!

Now I have to give back all the money I've won.

[Water_Wizard]

Wait... why didn't anyone tell me that GSZ was the strategy of this deck? I've just been casting dudes and turning them sideways! I've been doing it all wrong!

Now I have to give back all the money I've won.

At least someone can make light of this situation

It seems much more productive than calling me a terrible player

[Koby]

<InterestingMan>I don't always cast Green Sun's Zenith, but when I do, I cast it every turn.</InterestingMan>

I do find that most games I'm casting GSZ frequently. The deck derives its consistency and power from the flexibility of GSZ, rather than just running out some dorks from the hand. However, simply just casting SFM and ignore GSZ for the game is a fine strategy too.

[Water_Wizard]

So how is this card any different than the current hate out there? Reanimator already knows how to deal with the current hate. The same cards are applicable.

Like Esper3K said a few posts ago, it can't be Pithing Needled. Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, Nihil Spellbomb and Scavenging Ooze can all be turned off by Needle.

Additionally, Cage is a constant effect. Unlike other artifact hate, which you must sacrifice to use (sans-Relic's 1-of ability), Cage is constant. Ooze must be activated and usually isn't online until turn 3 and can only target as many cards as you have green mana open.

You can bounce Cage, like you can bounce Leyline of the Void, but usually you know when to expect Leyline. Cage is colorless and can be run in any deck, making it more difficult to sideboard against, unless you just come to expect it.

[Esper3k]

Certainly GSZ is one of the backbone cards of the deck, but shutting out GSZ alone hardly kills us (unlike how badly this card wrecks other decks like Dredge).

[Water_Wizard]

Certainly GSZ is one of the backbone cards of the deck, but shutting out GSZ alone hardly kills us (unlike how badly this card wrecks other decks like Dredge).

Agreed.

What concerns me about Cage is how quickly it shuts of GSZ. It's true, Teeg and Aven Mindcensor shut down GSZ as well (or significantly hinder it in the case of the latter), but they aren't active until turn 2 at earliest and we have readily available removal (Karakas, STP, PTE, Punishing Fire for Teeg and the same sans-Karakas for Mindcensor). With Cage, we have 1-3 cards maindeck that shut it down, depending on how many we run (Qasali Pridemage), which we now have to draw naturally.

What I'm worried about is Game 2 when I'm on the draw and I keep a 2 lander because I'm relying on Turn 1 GSZ->Dryad Arbor and they drop a turn 1 Cage. Now I need to wait until I have 3 mana to activate Pridemage or Krosan Grip, because I'm not running my Pridemage out there without sac mana up.

Cage just hits the board rather quickly, as opposed to the other GSZ hate available and we have less removal available for Cage.

[Water_Wizard]

Changing the topic to something hopefully a little less controversial, I think Garruk Relentless has found a spot in my sideboard. Currently, I put it in the Thrun spot, as a card to bring in against Control (UW), Nic Fit and Pox. I've been having trouble with sweepers (WOG, Damnation and Pernicious Deed), which Thrun does not survive. Additionally, against Pox, I've found it hard to climb out from under turn 1 Liliana.

Ideally, I would like to run both Garruk Relentless and Thrun, but right now I can't find the extra spot (sans moving Thrun to the main, which I don't feel is right for Punishing Mav). Thrun has definitely won me games and I like the fact that he is a GSZ target (at least until Cage prints, ha ha), but I like the fact that I can create a creature every turn, lightning bolt an opponent's creature and search a creature out of my deck with Garruk (potentially circumventing Grafdigger's Cage, if and when that becomes an issue).

[Esper3k]

Agreed.

What concerns me about Cage is how quickly it shuts of GSZ. It's true, Teeg and Aven Mindcensor shut down GSZ as well (or significantly hinder it in the case of the latter), but they aren't active until turn 2 at earliest and we have readily available removal (Karakas, STP, PTE, Punishing Fire for Teeg and the same sans-Karakas for Mindcensor). With Cage, we have 1-3 cards maindeck that shut it down, depending on how many we run (Qasali Pridemage), which we now have to draw naturally.

What I'm worried about is Game 2 when I'm on the draw and I keep a 2 lander because I'm relying on Turn 1 GSZ->Dryad Arbor and they drop a turn 1 Cage. Now I need to wait until I have 3 mana to activate Pridemage or Krosan Grip, because I'm not running my Pridemage out there without sac mana up.

Cage just hits the board rather quickly, as opposed to the other GSZ hate available and we have less hate available.

Sure it's going to hurt us some but as far as hate goes, I think it's pretty soft compared to things that truly wreck us like Perish or Deed.

[majikal]

If only we had maindeck slots dedicated to removing pesky artifacts. :(

[Esper3k]

If only we had maindeck slots dedicated to removing pesky artifacts. :(

Now that's just crazy talk.

[Fatal]

I don't see dangerous from new Cage, its rather poor strategy vs Maverick. It shut down 4 cards in deck, also we have MD answers (Qasali) and more on sb.

Btw which archetype would play Cage ? This is already much better hate vs Maverick - Cursed Totem, but it's still not enough since you can bring Engineered Explosives/Krosan vs it, so no worries.

BTW: Congrats for everyone playing well this archtype - we are still DTB nr1 with quite huge advantage over next deck :)

[Artlee]

Sure GSZ is good. But would any of you as a zoo pilot side in Teeg to stop GSZ from resolving, even if you were playing versus GW Mav without punishing fire??

[Koby]

Good point Artlee. I normally board out Teeg againt other GSZ decks unless they run Jace or Natural Order in addition. The new Cage is merely an annoyance like Teeg is; but a little tricker to remove. I'm starting to change the Thrun for Elspeth. Thrun has been really underwhelming in non-control matchups. Having the PW helps the aggro matchups much more than Thrun.

Thoughts on maindeck Thrun vs. Elspeth?

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

+1 for Elspeth. She closes games a lot faster than Thrun and doesn't require the mana to stick around in sticky situations.

Elspeth gives every deck trouble. And your dudes randomly get over moat. Give that Scryb double flying.

When I see an opposing Thrun the idea is to stall him out and get to victory by other means (i.e. Jace, flying over your dudes or cloning him).

[bakofried]

I must ask people's opinion on the dysynergy between Teeg and Elspeth.

[Koby]

I must ask people's opinion on the dysynergy between Teeg and Elspeth.

Don't play Teeg when you anticipate needing Elspeth? We still run Karakas to bounce Teeg when we need to.

[lordofthepit]

Good point Artlee. I normally board out Teeg againt other GSZ decks unless they run Jace or Natural Order in addition. The new Cage is merely an annoyance like Teeg is; but a little tricker to remove. I'm starting to change the Thrun for Elspeth. Thrun has been really underwhelming in non-control matchups. Having the PW helps the aggro matchups much more than Thrun.

Thoughts on maindeck Thrun vs. Elspeth?

No contest, Elspeth. You have to anticipate Wrath, Perish, etc. coming in from the sideboard against a lot of decks, where Elspeth is much better and even harder to remove. Elspeth is also much better against aggro. It's randomly good against crap like Progenitus, Moat, and slow board control decks too.

In pretty much every matchup where you would want a resilient 4-cc bomb, I like Elspeth better. In the other matchups (i.e. most combo decks), you'd be boarding both out anyway.

[Esper3k]

I may be weird, but I've been liking Thrun myself, even against aggro decks.

His Hexproof and good p/t make him a crazy wall that a lot of aggro decks have a tough time getting through. Maybe I've been burned too many times by a Knight getting Pathed/Submerged, but I've rarely been saddened to see Thrun.

Obvs, him being able to be GSZ'd is a large factor in playing him as a 1-of vs a 1-of Elspeth.

[Einherjer]

I beg, I just beg my enemies are idiotic enough to board in the cage against me. I mean... thats hillarious... It would shut off 4 cards - and as said we run 1-3 maindeckanswers ROFL ROFL ROFL

Please do so, my dear opponents..