No, you must discard your entire hand to add 3 mana of any color. So, you can cast any spell card that was in your hand before breaking led. Usually you break led in response to empty the warrens or infernal tutor in order to use the mana for the wished / tutored spell.Originally Posted by halfgodz
GC.
No, you must discard your entire hand to add 3 mana of any color. So, you cannot cast any spell card that was in your hand before breaking led. Usually you break led in response to burning wish or infernal tutor in order to use the mana for the wished / tutored spell.
GC.
Anyone else see Christian Vallenti's list that he went 7-0 with at the SCG Invitational? Cruel Ultimatum? Whaaa?
What is the Molten Rain for?
Very cool to see a Belcher list do so well- I'd always been interested in playing it, but never had the nerve to play a "glass cannon" deck when there was something on the line.
Yeah, I can't really figure out why he would play those cards at all. Molten Rain your Tabernacle? Ehh.
This post concerns sideboarding to beat Tempo Matchups:
These are pretty much our worst conceivable matchup: RUG/Canadian Threshold and Team America.
RUG/Canadian Threshold has:
Daze
Stifle
Spell Snare
Force of Will
Vendilion Clique (?)
Team America has:
Daze
Stifle
Spell Snare
Force of Will
Hymn to Torach - all relevant spells that really hurt! Some builds even have Pernicious Deed or Maelstrom Pulse to deal with goblin tokens.
Here's the current optimum list (from http://www.mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=83):
1 [R] Taiga
4 [AL] Elvish Spirit Guide
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [CST] Tinder Wall
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [9E] Seething Song
3 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [MM] Land Grant
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 3 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [SC] Xantid Swarm
So here are my sideboard questions:
What do you take out against the Tempo matchup?
- You could remove Manamorphos, which is certainly not essential but does help you build storm, fix mana, and get one card closer to drawing one of your 11 win cards.
- You could remove desperate ritual, since it is likely to draw a Spell Snare (another card likely to do this is Burning wish, but no one is suggesting pulling this out).
- You could remove Land Grant, since that gives the game away in many respects, and is likely to be countered, and thus cannot be relied upon.
What would you bring in?
Most boards commit 7 slots to fighting countermagic - Xantid Swarm and 3 Pyroblasts (and YES, you should use Pyroblasts. That way you can target anything to build storm).
I am not completely sold on the notion you should move 7 cards to your board, as the deck is a finely-tuned machine where every card counts and even drawing a second win condition can prevent you from having enough mana to go off.
Arguments for Xantid Swarm:
- Most players board out removal (for Spell Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, Duress, Extirpate or Surgical Extraction - all of which can wreck us). This means that Xantid Swarm is likely to stick around long enough for us to go off.
- Xantid Swarm is definitely better when your opponent has several counterspells in hand.
- Xantid Swarm can be used to psych out the opponent, or before the critical turn to ensure set-up mana sources (LED, Tinder Wall) hit the table safely.
Arguments for Pyroblast:
- It can pop out of nowhere and surprise your opponent, whereas Xantid Swarm is already on the board and they can adapt around it.
- It is helpful when going off on turn one, where Xantid Swarm is not.
- It can stop counterbalance and standstill (though not relevant in this particular matchup).
- It can counter utility blue creatures (Vendillion Clique, Snapcaster Mage) before they hit the table and grant their effect.
- It makes a better imprint card than Xantid Swarm
What do you guys think? A split? Both? Switch between Xantid and Blast g2 and g3 to psych out your opponent?
One reason I argue clearing room in the sideboard is to make room for the best artifact hate card available: Ingot Chewer. This 5cc card costs one red to play. It takes care of the following otherwise fatal disruption cards:
- Lodestone Golem
- Trinisphere (assuming you have 3 mana)
- Chalice of the Void at 1
- Ratchet Bomb or Engineered Explosives cast in advance of Empty the Warrens
- Ethersworn Cannonist
I'd love to pack 4 of these in my board. So an ideal board for me would be:
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [] Hull Breach
SB: 1 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [DIS] Infernal Tutor
SB: 1 [NE] Reverent Silence
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 4 [5E] Pyroblast OR 4 Xantid Swarm
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 4 [SC] Ingot Chewer
Note that there are 16 cards here - I'd like to drop Goblin War Strike, but it does occasionally come in handy. Infernal Tutor has given me critical storm in the past. Past In Flames isn't the godsend I hoped it'd be, since you can't flash back a resolved Burning Wish - it's only good if you have Empty the Warrens in the graveyard, and even then, it's not that great. With a ton of cantrip effects, it COULD be OK, but I've found myself wishing I'd just wished for Empty the Warrens in those cases.
Finally, has anyone here systematically analyzed the benefit of drawing first rather than playing first? The extra card, along with knowledge of what your opponent is playing may be worth it. Then again, if they played an island and now have access to Spell Snare and Stifle, or if they Thoughtseized you, you may have just lost. I'm interested in seeing some numbers if anyone has them.
Thank you for reading such a long post, and I look forward to reading your responses on these three topics I've brought up: What to sideboard out, whether to use Xantid Swarm or Pyroblast or both, and whether it's better to play or draw. Thanks!
-Michaelq
Pox
Chalice
Tempo Thresh
in reply to some of the above...
-On Xantid Swarm-
He's not some super secret tech. Most deck's aren't going to side out all their removal, and RUG certainly isn't going to side out bolt, so expecting him to do the lion's share of the work is pretty unrealistic.
On the other hand, your other options are things like Autumn's Veil, which is not terrible, but not overly exciting either. The ability to *chant* once (and in response to a counter no less) is alright though, since you can either bait with it or use it more reactively.
-On Ingot Chewer-
It depends on your local meta I suppose. Personally I wouldn't take up slots on multiple artifact hate cards. Of the things listed Canonist in Maverick is probably the most likely/common, and Chewer still doesn't answer canonist/mom.
Your Concerns vs. the Tempo matchups are real ones, but sadly there aren't a ton of good answers forthcoming. I'm close to suggesting your line to victory follows having an empty the warrens in hand when you start casting rituals and hoping your opponent doesn't counter you getting to 4mana. After board, you want the same thing, except preferably with a piece of disruption and the mana to do both... and for them not to have an answer to gobbo's. Kind of sounds like a Hail Mary, but that's somewhat what this deck is.
If Tempo is rampant and you are fairly set on this kind of strategy, you might try some of the Spanish Inquisition variants (QSI and SITES particularly) as they have a higher density of "threat" cards, and by the nature of draw4's have a better chance of recovery from a counterspell.
Just thoughts of course.
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
Two questions:
Why not Pyretic Ritual over Manamorphose? I realize Manamorphose helps you build storm, but it doesn't help you build mana (I guess it could with that extra card).
Also, why not run one Shattering Spree in your board? It kills Chalice on 1 (just cast and replicate) and it will destroy multiple targets.
If you go for infernal tutor off the sideboard or even run a tendrils or diminishing returns play the ability to filter outside of Petal and Diamond is extremely useful
Dredge
When your heart won't beat, your eyes go black
There's a light in the tunnel and you can't turn back
Your friends can't save you, your family's gone
You're waiting on your judgment at the foot of the throne
Will you beg for some mercy? Will you cop some pleas?
Will you stand on your own or get down on your knees?
Will your angels release you from where demons dwell?
Will you make it into Heaven or go right back to Hell?
Only time will tell
If I'm pulling Tendrils out of the board, I'm planning to crack an LED in response to Burning Wish. Good call on Infernal though - Manamorphose makes sense for infernal.
The reason I like 4 Pyretic/Desperate (8 total) is because it sets you up a lot better for quicker combo - first turn Pyretic/Desperate leads into Seething Song or a combination of the two gives us the magic 4 mana for Belcher/Warrens. Manamorphose to Desperate leaves us with 3 mana and an extra card.
@Water Wizard
I've played a lot with both Pyretic Ritual and Manamorphos. I feel like a the extra ritual effects DO increase the chance of a critical turn one, but having Manamorphos increases the chances of drawing into critical disruption/win conditions, and the assistance with the storm count is often relevant. This would seem to be backed up by the fact that all the recent top 8 belcher builds ran 4 Manamorphos. It is a trickier card to play, and you really can't fall into the trap of assuming that Manamorphos will draw you into something relevant, but once you get past that, it's definitely a better card than Pyretic Ritual imho.
@Leegoo
SI was my original combo deck, and I happen to still have 4 Cruel Bargains around.
This may sound silly, but has a black/red belcher build already been tried? It would seem to have better disruption and better rituals.
Mana: 34
4 [R] Badlands
4 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [] Dark Ritual
4 [] Cabal Ritual
4 [CHK] Desperate Ritual
4 [CS] Rite of Flame
Tech: 19
4 [NPH] Gitaxian Probe
4 [SHM] Manamorphose
4 [] Duress
3 [] Infernal Tutor
4 [JU] Burning Wish
Win: 7
1 [] Past in Flames
1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
1 [] Tendrils of Agony
4 [MR] Goblin Charbelcher
SB: 1 [TSP] Empty the Warrens
SB: 1 [] Past in Flames
SB: 1 [SC] Tendrils of Agony
SB: 1 [M11] Pyroclasm
SB: 1 [SC] Goblin War Strike
SB: 4 [5E] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [] Thoughtseize
SB: 1 [] Deathmark
4 more cards
Other than ESG, Land Grant and Tinder Wall, is there really any reason to prefer Green to Black? The main reason I say this is I strongly dislike relying on Land Grant. Upping the manabase to 4 mountains (Badlands) may be a bit of a stretch, but it would help get the initial mana out there. I realize this is going in the direction of a pure Past in Flames build, but I am loath to abandon Goblin Charbelcher...
Thoughts?
-Michaelq
Cantrips are no where near as good as ritual effects, the deck lives and dies by its mulligans and having 8 "surprises" in the deck just creates needless variance. Manamorphose is especially bad because you have to commit a non-trivial amount of resources just to cycle it and potentially GG yourself with 2 man floating.
First, I pretty heavily agree w/ final fortune on the cantrips... imperfect info leads to a lot of hands that look tempting to keep but don't actually do anything. Probe doesn't bother me as much since the "peak" effect can be alright at telling you what you need to attempt to play around / how much time you have.
On the list you posted, It looks like you are basically playing (SI)TES, but hamstringing yourself by not playing culling the weak and more Empty the Warrens, which is probably better now than it has been in a long time.
4 land (even if they are mountains) is certainly too many to run Belcher with, especially with no way to search them up. Most of the times I activate belcher, I don't have the resources to do it again the next turn... which is a bad situation to be in.
If you want to stick with Belcher instead of SI though, this is a little brew I've been playing around with. It still needs some tuning for sure, but it's an ok place to start. (And as you bend the mana pretty much to the limits you are required to play manamorphose and some # of Cantor's.)
2 Land Belcher
4 ESG
4 SSG
4 Tinder Wall
2 Wild Cantor
4 Land Grant
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Manamorphose
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Empty the Warrens
3 Spoils of the Vault
1 Seething Song
4 Chrome Mox
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Taiga
1 Bayou
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
Interesting build! I like that black potentially gives you access to Duress/Thoughtseize/Inquisition of Kozilik, which are better imho than blast effects and Xantid Swarm. One question though before I try this on Cockatrice - don't you kill yourself a lot with Spoils of the Vault? Is it better in this build than Burning Wish would be?
-Michaelq
Fixed.
West side
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the only cards I ever get (well, almost) with Spoils is generally a win con. It's normally a non-issue, but yes, you can 20 yourself with some poor luck. I don't generally spoils for a card that I have less than 4 of left in the deck.
I really didn't like Infernal tutor in it's place... a few more hoops than I wanted to jump. Still, like I said, it's just a starting point, I could be wrong.
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
I'm thinking of running Street Wraith instead of manamorphose. I find myself wanting to go off turn 1 and not being able to use manamorphose. At this point I cheat and look at the next card, I'm fishing, and it's almost always helpful. I'm thinking the free draw may be more useful... With Probe it'd be 8 free draws, basically making it a 52 card deck. Thoughts?
You run into the problem playing "x" free cycler's always runs into. This, for example
Hand (on the play)
Land Grant
Tinder Wall
Rite of Flame
Rite of Flame
LED
Street Wraith
Gitaxian Probe
Seems like a tough hand to mulligan as it's an action spell away from everything you want. But what if Street wraith and Gitaxian probe were instead Lotus Petal and Tinder Wall? Would you keep it then? If you cycle into nothing can you afford to draw blanks for a couple of turns? Or do you mulligan in hopes of a better 6? It's a gamble either way.
Imperfect information often leads to the wrong choice. Whether it's wrong for you depends on your aggressiveness / willing to play the odds.
Swim, Bike, Run, MTG
I have found this deck to be very, very consistent without Burning Wish and without Land Grants/Tiaga now that we have Gitaxian Probe and no longer have to deal with Mental Misstep. This list has very little trouble Belching or Empty'ing (for at least 10) on turn one or two:
Win/Draw (20)
4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Street Wraith
4x Manamorphose
4x Goblin Charbelcher
4x Empty the Warrens
Free/Artifact Mana (20)
4x Chrome Mox
4x Lotus Petal
4x Lion's Eye Diamond
4x Simian Spirit Guide
4x Elvish Spirit Guide
Rituals/Mana Ramp (20)
4x Rite of Flame
4x Tinder Wall
4x Desperate Ritual
4x Pyretic Ritual
4x Seething Song
You run into some of the same problems you have had in the past: if your Gitaxian Probe or even worse, Manamorphose are countered, you are in a bind. You need to be sound in your mulligans: you've got eight maindeck win conditions and 12 maindeck draw cards.
Anyone else find that no-land, no-wish Belcher has been working well?
What is the advantage of cutting Land Grant/Taiga? Land Grant is like almost a Lotus Petal, and is certainly better than any Simian Spirit Guides. Crapping out on Belcher is rare enough to keep the Taiga, if you ask me.
The advantage of having no land verses one land is very small mathematically. And having that permanent mana source (unless it gets Wasted) sure is nice. I think there is definitely an advantage gained by not unzipping your fly and laying your nuts on the table when you cast Land Grant. Many folks who are playing blue decks are unsure of when and what to counter when playing against Belcher. Land Grant gives them all of the information they need.
Conversely, if you were to look at the Probes as a direct replacement for the Land Grants, they achieve the opposite: you get to see if you have any countermagic to play through. Another Probe benefit: often when playing Belcher, you never get to see what the other guy is playing giving no information on how to sideboard. Probe does help that.
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