[Deck] Dredge

[Beatusnox]

I'll try to elaborate what jares refer to, if you don't mind.
Brownscale is very unusual. The effect of Thug is powerful, and wins a lot of games, due to being able to put back a Moeba or a PImp, but yeah, if you feel more comfortable with the Brownscale, I guess it's a valid choice.
The OP is a little outdated, card choice wise, neither Dread Returns nor DR targets are necessary, but they are very viable, still, just depends on playstyle and meta I guess.
Either ways, I would advice you to try at least without the FKZ, since he is very much win-more alot of the times. If you decide to do so, you can also cut the 3rd Dread Return in favor of e.g. the 4th Therapy( in general I would never leave the house without a full playset, it's by far the best card in the deck imo). If you decide to run DR targets at all, Iona is a very reasonable choice.
What I don't like about your list are the Nethershadows, the Land count and your sideboard.I would strongly recommend to go up to at least 14, if not 15 lands pre board.Darkblast, Tribe or Firestorm seem like a good idea to me, too, but I guess it also works without, but a Darkblast fills up remaining slots quite smoothly.

May I ask you why you run your Sideboard like that? I can imagine a meta that makes it reasonable, so I'm curious about the reasoning behind your choices.
In general, Naturalize is a very weak Ancient Grudge, imo, if you like Naturalize because of being able to blow up enchantments, too, Nature's Claim seems like the way to go.If you run Chain of Vapor(which is almost always stronger than Truth), you normally just need Ancient Grudges and maybe one Ray of Revalation.
To be honest, Bloodghasts to me are not a card to play in Dredge. You might wanna try running additional Dread Return targets, like Angel of Despair, Terastodon, Sadistic Hypnotist, Elesh Norn( Great for the mirror) and such. Uses less space and makes the sideboard really versatile.

Hope my input helps and neither I nor jares want to seem like we're being arrogant, so sorry if that's the case.

Thank you for at least elaborating. Is Zealot more of a sideboard card then a maindeck? Most games I find myself going off turn 3ish with it but I can also see how just going aggro with the Ichorids could work. The reason I liked Nether shadow was as a recursive threat and sacrifice towards flashbacks. I could reduce the number though as I am finding more and more just get removed to Ichorids over the long haul.

So a more Revised List after input and help from you all.

//Lands 14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Swamp/Undiscovered Paradise(I do not see the recursive land needed if im not running ghast)

//Dredgers 14
4 Golgari Grave-troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Brownscale
2 Darkblast

//Other Creatures 16
4 Ichorid
3 Nethershadow
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

//Goodstuffz 18
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge From Below
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy

As for the sideboard I had found the lifegain to be more and more relevant for Natures Claim, but that is probably because there are a lot of U/R Delver Goblins and Burn that have a fast enough clock that the four life seems game swinging, also I did not have any ancient grudge and my store was out of them so I used what I could as a filler. I had Truths in the board for the abundance of Goblin storm decks in my area, I used to play blecher and praised it as a low cost entry to the format and well, now there are a few of them in the store lol. The ghasts were there for decks that like to thoughtseize threats away by adding another threat, but I rarely sided him in.

So a Revised sideboard would probably look like(grudge on order ATM)
4 Ancient Grudge
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Ingot Chewer
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Firestorm/Tireless Tribe

I havent tested this list yet, but basing off your suggestions I will try it out, I will also get a set of thugs and try alternating between the scales and thugs to figure out which I like more.

Sorry if I came off sounding like an asshole in my reply.

[HokusSchmokus]

This list looks a lot better. Still, I think Thug is the way better option but whatever works best for you I guess. You have to deal with removing nether shadow for Ichorid a lot of times, though(otherwise, you could even cut them).
You might want to take a look at Tarnished Citadel, I think it is a bit better tham swamp and Paradise.
Other than that , your maindeck looks completely solid!

As for the sideboard:
A fast combo meta is actually the only place I would ever recommend playing FKZ in. What I think does a better job thoug, is Sphinx of lost Truths as it is also good in the mirror and basicly just as fast.
If you can free only 2 slots, I think Tribe is surperior to Firestorm. Other than that, completely viable.

[jares]

A fast combo meta is actually the only place I would ever recommend playing FKZ in.

I don't know if any of you have experienced this, but FKZ has worked really well for me because of something unrelated to the deck's content - the allotted time per round. In my experience, game 1 usually ends pretty quickly, but game 2 usually takes a lot longer because both players would really need to grind out a win. If game 3 becomes necessary, very little time is left because of the time it took to finish game 2, and in these cases, you would only have around 2-3 turns to win - and this is where FKZ shines.

The combo match-up is also why I maintain having FKZ in my 75, but it was also pleasant to have the card help out in real-life circumstances.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Beatusnox]

This list looks a lot better. Still, I think Thug is the way better option but whatever works best for you I guess. You have to deal with removing nether shadow for Ichorid a lot of times, though(otherwise, you could even cut them).
You might want to take a look at Tarnished Citadel, I think it is a bit better tham swamp and Paradise.
Other than that , your maindeck looks completely solid!

As for the sideboard:
A fast combo meta is actually the only place I would ever recommend playing FKZ in. What I think does a better job thoug, is Sphinx of lost Truths as it is also good in the mirror and basicly just as fast.
If you can free only 2 slots, I think Tribe is surperior to Firestorm. Other than that, completely viable.

The reasoning behind the zealot was my meta. There is a lot of combo, between T.E.S., Elves, reanimator the ability to 'go off' in a sense earlier was important but for a major tournament where i am unsure of the meta he probably should be in the sideboard. I understand that 4 is bigger than two, but as I said there are a lot of burn centric decks and gaining two life can be the differnce between dying and staying alive by one or two. It also reverses some of the damage from cities.

[HokusSchmokus]

The reasoning behind the zealot was my meta. There is a lot of combo, between T.E.S., Elves, reanimator the ability to 'go off' in a sense earlier was important but for a major tournament where i am unsure of the meta he probably should be in the sideboard. I understand that 4 is bigger than two, but as I said there are a lot of burn centric decks and gaining two life can be the differnce between dying and staying alive by one or two. It also reverses some of the damage from cities.

So based on your current list and what you said there, I would suggest you'd at least try out something like this:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Brownscale
1 Darkblast

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

SB:3 Ancient Grudge
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Ingot Chewer
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Tireless Tribe
Maybe Ancestor's Chosen is a good choice, too

You will notice this list is actually very close to yours.
What do you think of it?

[Beatusnox]

So based on your current list and what you said there, I would suggest you'd at least try out something like this:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Brownscale
1 Darkblast

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

SB:3 Ancient Grudge
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Ingot Chewer
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Tireless Tribe
Maybe Ancestor's Chosen is a good choice, too

You will notice this list is actually very close to yours.
What do you think of it?

I like this list, a lot. Thank you for actually discussing changes and card choices over being condescending and holier than thou. That really is similar to my list and seems more streamlined. Thaks again.

[dredgekid]

Okay, here is a rough list I have come up with for post DKA

**DISCLAIMER** this list is very focused on casting DR to win the game quickly, so please keep that in mind when making criticisms.

DREDGERS
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug


ENABLERS
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

GY GOODIES
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
2 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sun Titan

LANDS
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum

Obviously the big thing that sticks out is 2 Ichorids. BUT DREDGEKID, THAT'S A CRIME! Now, like I said earlier, this list is focusing on winning turns 1 and 2, which it has been doing surprisingly consistently. Ichorids, while AMAZING, do not lend to winning early. Also, this list fills the graveyard much faster than former dredge lists, so it is much easier to find your Ichorids and Narcomoebas faster. Right now, I am liking it in gold-fishing, but am skeptical about how well it will work in application. If this is the list I keep, though, I would definitely be boarding 1-2 more Ichorids for grindy games and decks still opting for Snappy + Surgical Extraction.

[dredgekid]

So based on your current list and what you said there, I would suggest you'd at least try out something like this:
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
4 Cephalid Coliseum

4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
3 Nether Shadow

4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Brownscale
1 Darkblast

4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough

SB:3 Ancient Grudge
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
3 Ingot Chewer
4 Chain of Vapor
1 Ray of Revelation
2 Tireless Tribe
Maybe Ancestor's Chosen is a good choice, too

You will notice this list is actually very close to yours.
What do you think of it?

One thing I notice just at first glance is that you are very light on discard outlets. I would give either tireless tribe or firestorm a try in the main in place of nethershadows.
Tribe would probably be ideal in a combo heavy meta from my experience.

Also, if burn is prevalent, ancestor's chosen is AMAZING! Should probably be in the board somewhere.

[HokusSchmokus]

One thing I notice just at first glance is that you are very light on discard outlets. I would give either tireless tribe or firestorm a try in the main in place of nethershadows.
Tribe would probably be ideal in a combo heavy meta from my experience.

Also, if burn is prevalent, ancestor's chosen is AMAZING! Should probably be in the board somewhere.

When you got Iona maindeck, I don't consider Burn a matchup at all,so maybe chosen is overkill.
You are right, it is light on outlets. Problem is that Beatusnox insists on running Brownscale. With Thug you would have enough creatures for Ichorid and could play some number of Tireless Tribes, but as it is, I think cutting Nethershadow is not the way to go.You cannot recur Ichorid with 8 black creatures.

[Beatusnox]

When you got Iona maindeck, I don't consider Burn a matchup at all,so maybe chosen is overkill.
You are right, it is light on outlets. Problem is that Beatusnox insists on running Brownscale. With Thug you would have enough creatures for Ichorid and could play some number of Tireless Tribes, but as it is, I think cutting Nethershadow is not the way to go.You cannot recur Ichorid with 8 black creatures.

I had said I liked the brownscales but would be testing both, after posting today and testing, thug had been most definitely superior(no shit right?). Sorry if I caused any issues in the thread, I have to remember that testing well=/= Optimized. Either way, thank you for the help Hokus.

[jares]

When you got Iona maindeck, I don't consider Burn a matchup at all,so maybe chosen is overkill.
You are right, it is light on outlets. Problem is that Beatusnox insists on running Brownscale. With Thug you would have enough creatures for Ichorid and could play some number of Tireless Tribes, but as it is, I think cutting Nethershadow is not the way to go.You cannot recur Ichorid with 8 black creatures.

I also used to have Ancestor's Chosen in the SB, but I eventually realized that Iona, Shield of Emeria was more than enough to cover the Burn match-up. Even the game 1 match-up is already favorable regardless of the DR target (or none), so I'm not sure that we should be preparing too much for a match-up that we already have no problem with, much less significantly weaken our dredging capability and essentially weakening all other match-ups. I find this to be a step backward from how the deck has progressed so far, even in considering an all-Burn metagame. For reference, it's coincidental that the deck I was playing before picking-up Dredge was Burn, and in my experience, I would rather be the Dredge deck if those two decks were put head-to-head.

At the end of the day though, we are all entitled to our opinion, and it's just a matter of finding reason for backing-up our opinion to make it a defensible argument (no need to act holy or condescending, as that just creates distractions from gaining progress). "There are no right or wrong answers, just thoughtless or defensible ones".

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Okay, here is a rough list I have come up with for post DKA

**DISCLAIMER** this list is very focused on casting DR to win the game quickly, so please keep that in mind when making criticisms.

DREDGERS
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug


ENABLERS
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Putrid Imp
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

GY GOODIES
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Narcomoeba
2 Ichorid
4 Bridge from Below
3 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Sun Titan

LANDS
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
3 Cephalid Coliseum

Obviously the big thing that sticks out is 2 Ichorids. BUT DREDGEKID, THAT'S A CRIME! Now, like I said earlier, this list is focusing on winning turns 1 and 2, which it has been doing surprisingly consistently. Ichorids, while AMAZING, do not lend to winning early. Also, this list fills the graveyard much faster than former dredge lists, so it is much easier to find your Ichorids and Narcomoebas faster. Right now, I am liking it in gold-fishing, but am skeptical about how well it will work in application. If this is the list I keep, though, I would definitely be boarding 1-2 more Ichorids for grindy games and decks still opting for Snappy + Surgical Extraction.

I like the list. I think that it's just natural for a LED list to go all-in on winning on turns 1 or 2, though I believe that Faithless Looting has allowed LED lists to be a lot less dependent on speed. I also personally think that 2x Ichorid is the minimum number that the deck can live with (unless of course some other configuration comes up having no Ichorid ). My concern, though, is that your Gold Land count is very low at 8x. It would be interesting to see how you'll manage your SB with a smaller number of Gold Lands. Others have gone with not running Cephalid Coliseum entirely (and running 11-12 Gold Lands), something that might be "sinful" to others, but it's a change that I find to be almost necessary in what LED+FL lists are trying to achieve. The generalization of my observation is that LED essentially takes the slots of Cephalid Coliseum when converting from LEDless to LED (and Faithless Looting takes the slots of Tireless Tribe or Firestorm) - it looks like you're trying to do both, and it'll be great if that works out .

For your configuration, may I suggest the following:

• -1 Faithless Looting and +1 Careful Study
  
  • With your land configuration, you're more likely to be able to cast a Blue card as compared to a Red card.
  • Running one less FL likely won't create any inconsistencies, given that the older LED lists ran just 2x Deep Analysis. This also lessens the probability of you drawing one in your opening hand alongside a Cephalid Coliseum with no other Gold Lands in hand.
• If you're looking for more room in the deck (maybe to insert the 12th land, the 4th CS/FL, etc.), you could probably cut the 4th Cabal Therapy based on what you're trying to achieve. I wouldn't really suggest doing so, but I was thinking in advance about what else you can "cheat-on" if you needed more room, and that was what I came up with. I could be gravely mistaken though (as I personally have always run a set of Cabal Therapy).

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
jares

[HokusSchmokus]

Beatusnox, if you cut the brownscales for Thugs, I believe it es necessary to also cut the Nether Shadows for Tribes, and maybe one more thing, too.The list needs some discard outlets.
Anyways , I'm going to be in a local tournament today with my omgwtf in your face manaless list(pure brokeness in favor of consistency) with Bloodghast, 4 DR and 3 Sphinx MD, while cutting the 13th-16th dredger. Will be fun:D

[jares]

Beatusnox, if you cut the brownscales for Thugs, I believe it es necessary to also cut the Nether Shadows for Tribes, and maybe one more thing, too.The list needs some discard outlets.
Anyways , I'm going to be in a local tournament today with my omgwtf in your face manaless list(pure brokeness in favor of consistency) with Bloodghast, 4 DR and 3 Sphinx MD, while cutting the 13th-16th dredger. Will be fun:D

I'll be looking forward to the results of your tourney using the omgwtf list

Cheers,
jares

[Izor]

I also think you should cut the Nether Shadows. Not because they're bad, on the contraty I like them more than most people, but because they're only really good if you play a hybrid type of list with Phantasmagorians.

[jares]

The generalization of my observation is that LED essentially takes the slots of Cephalid Coliseum when converting from LEDless to LED.

Something that I totally overlooked:

• Cephalid Coliseum was the only other card that LED was able to interact with in the old LED lists, and I find it curious that most of the LED lists that have been posted recently no loner want to take advantage of that interaction.

The direction where room could be made for Cephalid Coliseum by balancing the number of Careful Study, Faithless Looting, etc. seems like it's worth exploring.

Cheers,
jares

[Izor]

Something that I totally overlooked:

• Cephalid Coliseum was the only other card that LED was able to interact with in the old LED lists, and I find it curious that most of the LED lists that have been posted recently no loner want to take advantage of that interaction.

The direction where room could be made for Cephalid Coliseum by balancing the number of Careful Study, Faithless Looting, etc. seems like it's worth exploring.

Cheers,
jares

My LED-Lootings list has 4 Coliseum as well as 4 Study, 4 Lootings and 4 Breakthrough. And I'm pretty sure that this is the way to go. If we're running LEDs, we should build the deck as fast as possible. I think I might shave some PImps before I shave any of those 16 insane draw effects.

[dredgekid]

I like the list. I think that it's just natural for a LED list to go all-in on winning on turns 1 or 2, though I believe that Faithless Looting has allowed LED lists to be a lot less dependent on speed. I also personally think that 2x Ichorid is the minimum number that the deck can live with (unless of course some other configuration comes up having no Ichorid ). My concern, though, is that your Gold Land count is very low at 8x. It would be interesting to see how you'll manage your SB with a smaller number of Gold Lands. Others have gone with not running Cephalid Coliseum entirely (and running 11-12 Gold Lands), something that might be "sinful" to others, but it's a change that I find to be almost necessary in what LED+FL lists are trying to achieve. The generalization of my observation is that LED essentially takes the slots of Cephalid Coliseum when converting from LEDless to LED (and Faithless Looting takes the slots of Tireless Tribe or Firestorm) - it looks like you're trying to do both, and it'll be great if that works out .

For your configuration, may I suggest the following:

• -1 Faithless Looting and +1 Careful Study
  
  • With your land configuration, you're more likely to be able to cast a Blue card as compared to a Red card.
  • Running one less FL likely won't create any inconsistencies, given that the older LED lists ran just 2x Deep Analysis. This also lessens the probability of you drawing one in your opening hand alongside a Cephalid Coliseum with no other Gold Lands in hand.
• If you're looking for more room in the deck (maybe to insert the 12th land, the 4th CS/FL, etc.), you could probably cut the 4th Cabal Therapy based on what you're trying to achieve. I wouldn't really suggest doing so, but I was thinking in advance about what else you can "cheat-on" if you needed more room, and that was what I came up with. I could be gravely mistaken though (as I personally have always run a set of Cabal Therapy).

Let me know what you think.

Cheers,
jares

Honestly, I had the same train of thought as you as far as cutting the cephalids for more gold lands, but I am not convinced cutting cephalid is correct yet, because we're cutting a draw outlet as well as a land, and that detracts from the explosiveness that the deck is looking for.

I'll never run less than 4 cabal therapies. Possibly the best card in the deck, and it's what makes this version good. If you don't get a DR + fattie on turn one, you will be therapying their life away and getting 3-6 zombies, allowing you to sieze control of the game before they get an upkeep.

I am concerned about the sideboard. I will probably try boarding 2-3 rainbow lands and shift to a more traditional dredge list games 2-3, depending on the matchup.

One idea I have been toying with is boarding in 2-3 Ignot Chewers and 2 Darkblast, which allows you to dredge into thug, darkblast, chewer, then cast the thug and darkblast it to get back the chewer and kill their cage. It seems VERY involved and not 100% sure it will work, but it's an idea.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

masturbation advice

The deck needs moar Sun Titan. In LED Dredge he's ridiculous.

[ZebraSleeves]

Hey guys, I've been thinking about this Cage everyones so afraid of. Y'all need to stop worrying; WE are the ones who strike fear into our opponents' hearts, not the other way around. WE are the ones reanimating dead flesh at will and hemorraging our own minds to tap into dark magics.

We don't even really need the graveyard. Hardcasting imps, tribes, narcos, and thugs (especially in conjunction with well-timed therapies and firestorms) can be an extremely potent force. The redundency (read: consistency) of these little guys can often be enough when your opponent is diluting their deck with hate and shifting their playstyle in detrimental ways.

On top of that we have to remember that the Cage's effects are symmetrical which precludes a lot of the best decks from playing them. The only top tier decks that can really run it are tribal decks (which are generally favorable matchups anyways) and temp-thresh (which try to maximize mana-effeciency and would rather run the zero-costing crpyts and extractions).

I, for one, refuse to be caged. I hope my dark brethern will join me in my resistence.