Technically this works, but it doenst benefit us as much as just saccing the targeted post for another post(surgical extraction aside).Originally Posted by dahcmai
I would play tabernacle in my 75 if I owned one, probably in the sideboard though. Maze of ith is a must-have in the MD IMO, because its so good against stoneforge and decks that are low on threats. Also notice maze of ith's shenanigans with candelabra and vesuva.
oh yeah i wasnt seeing that sinergy, sweet!
thanks a lot for the help, now omw to rebuild the deck :)
What Extreme said, I won today against UW Blade on the back of Maze, Vesuva-Maze and Candelabra.
I ran a Mono Green List to a pretty disapointing 2-2 finish today, lost against Imperial Painter, quick Blood Moon followed by a Painter and enough blasts in both games and against Maverick, which I basically threw away (Game Loss for not desideboarding, G3 I misplay my Beast Within and die 1 turn short of stabilizing), won against UWr Stoneblade (the play I lost when he had the Force for my Crop Rotation for Maze) and a RW Homebrew. I think MD Needle is really really needed. Exploration sucked all day.
Exploration sucked all day because you dont play e-tutor to get it fast. Its the No.1 target for it.
Exactly. Maze of Ith is much more helpful than Tabernacle. For example against Goblin Luckey or Phyrexian Dreadnought. Now, about Exploration and e-tutor… Exploration is absolutely necessary. makes your deck runs in a double speed, plus its your first move for your defence. You have so many spells to get lands, but only Exploration to play them fast. E-tutor is a must with all these artifacts. you never know what you might need.
Last edited by MeddlingMageGR; 01-26-2012 at 03:53 AM.
How about try to run Teferi's Response in G/U conltrol version? This allows us to draw cards against Wastes/Sinkholes/Vindicates
It seems a lot worse than pithing needle in almost every way
It has been awhile since I stepped in and gave my opinions as the major designer of the deck. I normally hold back my lists, but I'll just dump them for your guys sake since you seem to all enjoy the deck. Even in Mental Mistep era I was finding great success with different varieties of the deck, but metagaming the fundamentals of the deck is extremely important to the success of this incredible deck.
I don't travel to events as much as I used to, but for months now I have been playing off my winnings at a local venue that allows me to accrue credit and use it for following events.
Mental Misstep era build:
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
1 [TE] Wasteland
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
5 [CS] Snow-Covered Forest
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 [M11] Primeval Titan
// Spells
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
3 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
2 [ROE] All Is Dust
4 [NPH] Beast Within
3 [US] Exploration
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 [TSP] Krosan Grip
SB: 3 [SHM] Faerie Macabre
This deck just spat at Mental Misstep by overloading it. The majority of the skill was reading your opponent to see what was bait in their mind, and what was a threat. Sometimes Exploration was a bomb, and sometimes it was fodder. They didn't know that though and with this deck I raked in over 800$ in prize among the sparse events I attended during Mental Misstep's height.
Post Mental Misstep:
// Lands
4 [TSP] Vesuva
3 [U] Tropical Island
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [9E] Island (1)
1 [ALA] Forest (4)
// Creatures
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
3 [M11] Primeval Titan
2 [FD] Trinket Mage
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
// Spells
2 [ROE] All Is Dust
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
1 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [GP] Repeal
4 [AL] Force of Will
3 [DDF] Thirst for Knowledge
3 [US] Show and Tell
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [ROE] All Is Dust
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 1 [DK] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 3 [OD] Moment's Peace
SB: 1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 [SOK] Pithing Needle
SB: 1 [FD] Engineered Explosives
Prior to Mental Misstep, the Blue-based version won me enough to pay for the deck even running 4x Candelabra and the last tally I wrote down shows me winning a total of 2250$ in prize up to Mental Misstep's printing and the deck changed. As I have not been playing as much in the post-Mental Misstep era, I have a less impressive prize-pool, but 100% of the events I have brought this version to I have finished Top 8 (as of March 18, don't come at me haters).
This list chomps on Show & Tell on Primeval Titan, which is by far the best move the deck has. Everything else is simply distraction to that end. Metagaming of that list can vary to running a MD Needle, MD Tabernacle, MD EE or less/more lands depending on how you want to appraise opening hands or fear things like Moon affects.
Some aspects that should not change:
- 6 removal spells: Whether it be All is Dust, Beast Within, Repeal, and EE, there should be 6 of these spells on the maindeck. Pithing needle can fit a quasi-slot for removal, but any less than 5 + needle is dangerous. Ulamog does not count as removal that allows you to accelerate mana, only removal that will let you kill them, Ensnaring Bridge/Lethal Boardstate due to equipment or monsters/Liliana. If you absolutely must try less than 6 removal spells, then one maindeck land MUST be Karakas for recursion of Ulamog outside of repeal.
- Eldrazi Package (2x Emrakul + Koz + Ulamog): I've had success without this package in the past, but since embracing it I have not looked back. It blows my mind that some players insist on not running a card draw & removal Eldrazi when games will be won/lost on their triggers. Often I consider Koz to be Opportunity & Shuffle my Grave for 8 mana, and Ulamog to be Vindicate & Shuffle my grave for 9. I also considered having my Koz & Ulamog mod'ed to be tilling some fields with a scythe since that is invariably where they go after a priority pass via STP. All these aspects considered, they are still invaluable.
- 4 Sensei's Divining Top - Best card in the deck. hands down. Playing without 4 is foolish and shows a lack of understanding of how the deck can perform optimally. When this card gets countered I cringe, but akin to the Mono-Green version, sometimes it is simply bait. This deck gets much of its ability to win off of mind-screw and the inability for most decks to even fight it without heavy wasteland recursion. If SDT was banned, this deck would be significantly hindered.
- 6+ Card Advantage cards - The 2nd veiled strength of this deck is its ability to simply bowl over opponents card-advantage-wise in game 2/3 when most decks muck up their decks with hate. Most of the deck already runs parity, the removal often 2+ for-one's them, but having a robust draw engine still is of paramount import.
A final note: Realize that this deck is a Combo/Control deck. Sometimes you simply want to put the cards on the table and say "if you got it, then that's game, otherwise that's game," but sometimes you have the ability to sit on your heels passively and nullify every threat they throw out through lifegain, card advantage, and mass removal. Knowing when to make that transition is integral for success with this deck.
A final, final note: I greatly enjoy this deck, but have heard from other players that it is very difficult to play and requires copious amounts of playtesting to even get an average-bead on what hands to keep, how to play against wastes, how to beat harder matchups and sideboarding nightmares. Just picking up this deck can seem daunting on both the pocket and the sanity, but if you put in the time it WILL reward you! Feel free to ask any questions as I am always interesting in giving an experienced opinion on all sorts of conceptualizing for this deck. If you've thought of it, I probably at one point had it suggested to me through my think-tank of teammates or thought of it, so I can help you with our thoughts.
Last edited by Rock Lee; 03-18-2012 at 05:16 PM.
That is a great analysis. Welcome back Rock Lee :) This is my current decklist I love to play :
// Lands
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [TSP] Vesuva
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
5 [UNH] Forest
1 [DK] Maze of Ith
3 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
// Creatures
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
2 [PRE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 [M11] Primeval Titan
// Spells
2 [FD] Crucible of Worlds
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [US] Exploration
4 [MR] Sylvan Scrying
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [ROE] All Is Dust
3 [SOK] Pithing Needle
I would like to hear your opinion about my mana base, and specifically about some great cards I left behind : Karakas, Tabernacle, Horizon Canopy. I wish I had room for all of them, but cutting some Forests, its proven, not the best move.
I also need help about the sideboard. And let me ask you, you always use 1 Chalice of the Void. What is the best number for it? Against what cards you use it ?
You think I have room for 1 Ulamog ? I go to 61 cards or cut something else ?
Also, do you believe that Eureka can substitute Show and Tell in monogreen ?
Last edited by MeddlingMageGR; 03-21-2012 at 04:55 PM.
You have come a long way from where you started MeddlingMage!
This list is solid in its consistency. I like 11 land tutors. This is a third variant of the deck that opts for stability over explosiveness while still providing a stable manabase. I will test it a bit to give a detailed evaluation.
5 forest was also the lowest I went with a mono-green build. I also agree on those three lands as your go-to necessary MD situational tutor lands. I wonder about running pithing needle main over Beast Within, but that is simply meta-specific.
I like the idea of Eureka, but I would strongly advise going up at least 1 eldrazi and 1 prim titan if you do that. I'll test it a bit.
Chalice in the Green version was a x4. I ran zero cmc 2's, but it was there for cmc 0 mostly. The Blue version ran 1 Chalice simply for Trinket Mage for the same reasons. Chalice @ 2 against loam is very annoying for them, but this is secondary as they buckle to crop rotate for Bog.
If you're looking for ulamog/titan room, I would look at the needle slot. I don't understand what it gives you game 1, when you already have crucible and a plethora of land tutors.
It is worth noting that without Karakas, you cannot recur Ulamog. My final land version ran Karakas specifically for my own Ulamog, in addition to the ability to go infinite for 16 mana.
I'd like to discuss all is dust vs. oblivion stone.
All is dust costs 7, though its 5 with the eye on the board. Generally if your in a position that u need dust/stone you're usually behind and thus unable to cast an eldrazi, so the manacost is pretty relevant here imo in comparison to oblivion stones 3.
Oblivion stone can be stifled. This hasnt happened to me a single time yet though. Oblivion stone also costs 1 mana more totally to use but can be divided over 2 or more turns. Stone kills your candelabras if u cant spend a turn/dont need to put a counter on them
I'm an advocate for stone, but I'd like to hear your opinions about this.
Im gonna try out Rock Lee's list as is. It's really a different deck so I cant form any opinion on it before testing. Show and telling into titan seems strong
I tried out the GW list with enlightened tutor but found that the card disadvantage made an impact in addition to tutor slowing your "clock" by a turn. Having the optimal artifact/enchantment in hand also makes the tutor redundant.
I tried out oblivion stone for several events, and missed top 8 in two matches both times while having oblivion stone in my hand, ugin in play, only 5 mana and staring down lethal colored damage. In a vacuum, 8 mana seems paltry compared to 7 with this deck, however the difference between the two is enormous. 7 is relatively easily acquired in this deck, 2x glimmerpost 1x cloudpost /w candelabra or 1x glimmerpost 2x cloudpost , but 8 requires 3 cloudposts. Additionally when you're on the ropes, they rarely will hit Ugin, but frequently will hit your Cloudposts, and the 5 mana threshold slighs well into Primeval titan the next turn.
O Stone does more and is incredibly strong, but after significant testing I went back to All is Dust.
Also I've had O Stone Pridemage'd for my loss when i was at 7 mana and had to wait a turn.
It is "vital importance" to keep not only Cloudposts, but Glacial Chasm alive as well. Wastelands are everywhere now. This is a good reason to play 3 of them, for now. I hope i find some other reasons not use 3, but just 1.
In games 2 and 3 many opponents of mine, play Wasteland & Cranial Extraction. And here comes the query : With 11 land tutors + Explorations, 5 Forests, 3 Titans, and 2 Crucibles is the deck capable to cast "Mr.M" or "Dr.Kozi" hardcast with 15 or 13 lands ? Is it worth to continue the game after losing Cloudposts ?
In the past few days I was playtesting the mini combo Amulet of Vigor & Scapeshift. It was fun to have my Cloudposts untapped, and more fun to get (with 5 lands only) 4 Cloudposts and 1 Ugin. I was desperate to find a way not to cast posts from an early time. But practically, even if that sounds good, it doesnt have the result I expected!!!
About SB, here is my try for the tournament tommorrow
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage - for Reanimator, Dredge, Progenitus
SB: 3 [DS] Trinisphere - for Burn, Affinity, Storm
SB: 1 [MR] Oblivion Stone - for Affinity, Ensnaring Bridge
SB: 4 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap - for Storn
SB: 4 [OD] Moment's Peace - for Affinity, Goblins, RW stompy
Last edited by MeddlingMageGR; 03-23-2012 at 03:15 PM.
I wonder if Elephant Grass could replace Moment's Peace in your SB. This deck has plenty of mana to support Grass while your setting up and it slows them down for a lot longer than Moment's Peace can. Moment's Peace limits you to two extra turns against aggro. Elephant Grass makes them choose between attacking with stuff, and playing stuff. Also, Expedition Map looks subpar compared to Living Wish, which can grab you not only land but Eldrazi.. and it costs 1 less than Expedition Map. Living Wish would also increase your virtual creature density by +4, which is pretty important if the opponent can manage to land, say, a removal spell, and 2 countermagic to deal with 3 of your 6 dudes.
Also.. Autumn's Veil. Its on color, and its essentially a Chant to protect your combo but it might also have some application against black spot removal like Vindicate and Maelstrom Pulse. Just a thought.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Elephant Grace does not prevent a single creature to attack.. . Cannot stop a heavy Tarmogoyf or a turn 2 Phyrexian Dreadnought, or even a Progenitus. Dont forget that behind defence (Maze of Ith, Glacial Chasm, Moment's Peace), there is always somewhere an All is Dust and 4 Sensei's Top to search it. So these 2 rounds (and probably 2 more) are very important.
To play Living Wish, you must have an active sideboard. Including all 12 post lands in maindeck, which land you suggest me to have in sb? The only land I believe its relevant, its Eldrazi Temple. But its too weak. I wont waste 4 slots in main, and 4 slots is sideboard for something so "lowpowered". Btw, Expedition Map is so strong, that its potition is unnegotiable. Its a part of the 11 land tutors + 4 Exploration to cast them fast. Even Explore is not good for this deck.
Its usefull to know that Primeval Titan is not in there for its 6/6 body. Its there for its first ability. I know he wont survive for a 2nd turn, and its not necessary to survive. If he does, its a victory. The same for Kozilek. He is there for his drawing ability. The only protection I gave him, is Karakas.
About Autumn's Veil... i dont see how that spell would help Turbo Eldrazi. As a SB card against Counters? Defense Grid is much much better.
I dont' blink when my cloudposts get surgical extracted. Don't get me wrong, I try not to let that happen, but I never concede a game just because of that. Prim Titan is still your avenue of victory. Remember koz is only 8 mana and ulamog 9. I've cast emrakul without a single cloudpost before, you just can't go infinite, simply 2 for every 1 of their turns forever. Also, Most decks cannot deal with 6/6 beatdown, especially if you're multi-bogging them and gaining gads of life.
Also remember you can bog yourself, crypt yourself, exile card/graves in any fashion like Faerie Macabre, to avoid surgical extract.
I would not drop moment's peace at all. The card is monsterously good. I tested several blue versions with no force on the main and moment's peace since I bring it in against most matchups, but found force's stability just better for my sanity MD.
IMO 3Sphere is too slow to beat Storm, and you should beat burn anyway with your copious amounts of lifegain. I dislike only having 3 Dredge/Reanimator cards in the side and would go up surgical extracts if you don't want to run chalice in the SB over 3sphere.
Also remember Karakas is a reanimator answer since the only dangerous dude is Jin-Gitaxis.
Beware with Scapeshift since your vesuva has to choose a land already in play, and cannot copy another land entering "simultaneously" so if you sac all your lands you can't Vesuva a Cloudpost you search for. Same thing applies to Primeval Titan searches.
I'd think you would want to at least play a Vesuva in the sideboard so you can have +4 copies of it. I don't see how Expedition Map could be better than Living Wish. Map costs an entire mana more and it can't fetch creatures. Whats the advantage? It would still give you 11 land search only you'll have more options for creatures. A Living Wish board might look like..
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Tabernacle at Pendrill Vale
1 Vesuva
1 Wasteland
1 Emrakul
1 Utility creature (Gaea's Revenge, Multani, Maro Sorcerer, Thalia, etc.)
6 Slots might be a lot of space but it would allow you to push a creature through against a control deck playing heavy countermagic.
If the non-Emrakul creatures are there for reasons other than, drop a fatty to win.. then why wouldn't you instead just go for something that helps you just win on the spot or get a superior board position? The double G in Titan's mana cost with only 7 green sources makes me think its going to be hard to sneak him in on turn 3 consistently. Also, Terastodon would be great here. It costs 2 more than Titan but you can potentially get 18 power on the field, and 9 even if Terastadon gets killed. It also can deal with troublesome non-creature permanents. For the same cost, Liege of the Tangle is pretty good. With just one swing you're going to have a shit ton of 8/8 lands, even if Liege disappears. These creatures secure the win better than preparing for the next Eldrazi drop would.
Elephant Grass isn't that bad. It prevents them from racking up damage quickly. If you can't make an Eldrazi drop that wins the game that turn, ie. Emrakul because you get the extra turn, then you might just die after Moment's Peace runs out. 2 Turns isn't going to save you if they kill you on the third. I figure Elephant Grass helps you out between turns 2 and 6. If you haven't dropped a guy by then, You've probably lost. Its not nearly as mana intensive on you since the entire deck is chalk full of land search. Goyf isn't going to be huge against you. By the time that it is, you've already dropped a guy or he'll have trouble attacking with multiple dudes at once because of Elephant Grass. One Goyf isn't a clock. Also, if they are limited to the number of creatures they can attack with, and you drop a dude to block, the Elephant Grass still helps. Either they waste attack phases playing creatures, or pay a bunch of mana to attack but they are stuck between those. It also prevents Zoo and such from closing on your life total quickly because they won't be able to attack and play reach spells. Its especially good against Goblins and Elves who won't have a lot of land to begin with, and need to swarm their opponents to win. I've been playing it in Stasis and it gives me a good 4 extra turns usually, even more of the opponent can't get enough lands down. Also, you can drop it much earlier and it will stay around for a while against faster decks, and it helps you in the long run against Empty the Warrens. I see Moment's Peace being good if every creature you dropped could win you the game but I don't see it being optimal in a deck that plays 4 non-Emrakul win conditions of the 6.. You need to drop a creature quickly or you lose. Even if you get them when they overcommit with All is Dust, you still have to deal with reach spells and can get set back quite a few turns with a single removal spell. Also, the fact that Elephant Grass lasts longer means with SDT you can attempt to chain them together as the upkeep gets too costly and make Elephant Grass a semi-permanent board state. As an example, I've been playing Chain of Vapor on Elephant Grass in Stasis, and when I drop it the 2nd time I'm good for another 3 turns. With SDT and lots of shuffle effects you can replicate that experience.
I agree about Defense Grid vs. Autumn's Viel. Grid is much better.
EDIT:
Also... Elephant Grass has quite the synergy with Tabernacle. Paying 1 per creature is quite a lot as it is if you are playing more than 1. Tack 2 on to that per creature and you are looking at 6 mana per turn for just 2 creatures.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
I was going to reply point-by-point and explain the numerous instances where you are expressing a candid lack of experience even playing the deck, but then I realized you are either an incredible troll, or really adorable and like talking about decks you haven't playtested.
Either way, the solution is to play the deck.
This deck works, it has won tournaments with an extremely low metagame presence. The only reason it isn't on the "decks to beat" forums is because MTGSource Admins are sticklers who only succumb to the public masses when it comes to dictating viable and contentious decks.
The innovations mentioned by several people in this deck aren't attempts to allow for an archetype to be formed, but rather exploring the multitudinous competitive facets that this deck can be expressed. Playtest a bit (meaning at least 5 matches two-fisted versus every major archetype) and then come back and we can talk about our ideas.
Heh fine I'll playtest it a bit but there's no way I'm playing Moment's Peace and Titan. I'll let reality prove me wrong. Btw its easy to claim troll so you don't have to have an actual conversation about cards you disagree about. I provide logical points and multiple examples, when I could just rant about the fact that this deck only plays 2 win conditions that will actually get to the finish line in Legacy. One removal spell or countermagic should be expected. 10 mana should win you the game, not draw you 4 cards. 6 mana should do something better than give you 2-4 lands so you can drop something else. If you want something cheap to hold the fort and help you set up, you might as well be playing Batterskull or Thrun.
Seriously though, the most surprising rejection here is Living Wish. You are passing on +4 Emrakul? Its easily your best win condition. Uncounterable, untargetable, wins the game on the spot.. Thats what you need in Legacy unless you want to stay in the Developmental forum. Otherwise you'll keep losing games to a Knight of the Reliquary the costs half the price of your Titan but is just as big, and the PtE or Swords that eats your Kozelik.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
Maybe I should make a compiled list of "cards I have considered" That would be amusing. That way troll/novices can check on it before ranting.
Vacrix, you re so wrong to everything you said. Just play the deck man... mine or Rock's list. Play it not just 1 or 2 times, but for an entire month. Then you realize your enormous mistakes.
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