This deck sits in kind of a weird position in between a lot of now popular archetypes in legacy. I like playing with it a lot.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
Probably going to friday night magic tomorrow, going to be subbing in Force of Wills where Spell Pierces are and see how it feels. Still using build listed previously.
+3 Force
-3 Spell Pierce
-- I haven't actually checked, I might need to add more blue in, but off the top of my head, I have brainstorm, ponder, snapcaster, daze, delver, and the forces themselves as blue cards.
21 blue cards should be fine actually..
Still love to counter goyf, ooze, SFM and Jitte with Spell Snare, although I reduced them to 2. You should definetly try it over Spell Pierce!Originally Posted by Kich867
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
FoW are useful to protect delver of secrets from removals too, spell pierce sucks from turn 3 to this and spell snare are obviously useless..
Also, they can protect your resolving snapcaster mage flashbacking a winning spell..
I've been farting around getting some good results with this list
1 sensei's divining top
4 delver of secrets
4 goblin guide
3 grim lavamancer
3 snapcaster mage
4 brainstorm
2 daze
1 fireblast
4 FoW
3 bolt
3 price
3 spell snare
3 chain lightning
4 ponder
2 arid mesa
3 island
1 mountain
4 scalding tarn
3 misty rainforest
4 volcanic island
1 wooded foothills
SDT has made a big impact on my ability to flip delver, get a FoW into my hand pronto, etc. I at first was going to run 3 FoW main and keep the 4th in the sideboard but I'm running so many blue cards I can pitch without thinking twice and still keep up my aggression and consistently use top to search for answers in an emergency/flip delver ASAP.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
Why would you want to run the 3rd Chain Lightning over the 4th Lightning Bolt?
Was wondering the exact same thing.
Hey! So I've got some upgrades coming to my deck so that it won't feel so janky anymore. Woo!
New List:
//Creatures: 14
4x Goblin Guide
4x Delver of Secrets
3x Grim Lavamancer
3x Snapcaster Mage
//Spells: 28
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Chain Lightning
3x Rift Bolt
3x Fireblast
4x Brainstorm
3x Ponder
4x Daze
3x Spell Pierce
//Lands: 18
3x Volcanic Island
4x Scalding Tarn
4x Misty Rainforest
4x Arid Mesa
2x Mountain
1x Island
Sideboard is same as it's been, but I switched PoP from main deck to sideboard. Even against tier 1 decks, people are running too many basics and they play around POP too easily. Also, 2 color decks are becoming very common. So far, I've gotten way more use out of Fireblast, since putting it in I've been loving it main deck.
In an incredibly satisfying game, I got my opponent to 9, he blew my delver and whatever else up with something, I EOT Snapcaster on Brainstorm, draw into a bolt and a fireblast and put another bolt on top to draw into on my turn. I untap, swing for 2 burn for 10 and win.
^ That line of play for me has been increasingly common. If you guys aren't Snapcastering your brainstorms, start doing it. My rule of thumb at the moment (after, probably a solid 100+ games recently with the deck to test this theory out) is unless snapcaster targeting a bolt is going to either win you the game -right now- I will always hit brainstorm with it if I have a fetch in hand.
So, it's very much in this priority, Bolt (If it'll win) > Brainstorm > Ponder > Bolt > Counterspell whenever I cast snapcaster.
I've found that given the quantity of burn we (I?) run, unless that lightning bolt wins the game, you're better off brainstorming for more options. I often EOT SCM > Brainstorm and grab myself some awesome combination of Burn/Burn/Draw or Creature/Creature/Burn etc.
It keeps your momentum up when the momentum slips out of your hands, and ever since I started focusing on SCM'ing my cantrips over my burn, you find more burn than you were going to anyways and you ensure that your next draws are either A: Good, or B: Most likely not shit because you fetched your shit back into the library.
I am also still comfortable running spell pierce. It may just be my play style, but Spell Snare doesn't counter most relevant removal and force of will, while awesome, conflicts with my previous point: I'm of the belief you want to be SCM'ing your blue cards more than your red cards because your blue cards actually get you more red cards.
It hurts late game because it just stops countering stuff, and that sucks, but I can't express in words how amazing it feels to go: Turn 1 Delver with daze backup, no response? Turn 2 Delver flips, Goblin Guide, swing for 5 with Daze Backup and 1 blue open for Spell Pierce.
This may be because I'm looking to keep my dudes alive, spell pierce keeps them alive long enough to do the damage they need to do so that they either stay in the game for the win or they can stay alive long enough to put someone in burn range (which once my cards get in is going to be pretty easy to close that gap).
A couple of days ago I went to a small tourney with a list based on 4eak's list . I lost against Bant Blade, won against Dredge, Sneak&Show and Green and Taxes; and finally lost in the semifinal against UW Blade (due to some missplays).
My changes were:
-4 Rift Bolt, -1 Daze, -1 Spell Snare, +1 Grim Lavamancer, +2 Dismember, +3 Spell Pierce
-2 Fetchs, +2 Volcanic Island
I'm quite happy with the result, but I noticed a few things:
- Dismember: it was useful against mana dorks, or for killing creatures outside burn range. But, as Lavamancer+Bolt has a similar effect, I'm thinking about replacing them with something more flexible, like Fire/Ice.
- Counters: Force of Will wasn't indeed that necessary, Spell Pierce was nice to counter early removal trying to stop my initial assault; but I would add the 4th Daze so that I can counter with just 1 tapped island more frequently.
- Cantrips: I might replace Ponder with Preordain, so that I don't need to activate fetchlands in order to get rid of chaff, thus holding more cards in hand for Brainstorm.
- Snapcaster Mage: I didn't really miss it, but I need more testing to be sure.
This may be a bad suggestion but what about Psionic Blast as a 2-of? It could potentially be good in lists that both want to have enough burn, but also want to be able to support Force of Will (which means you can maybe replace the Fireblasts with Psionic Blasts while being able to play Magma Jet instead of Ponder at the same time).
cool feedback. I've switched some of the counts around and upped some of the red sources and it's helped a lot with consistency.
Psionic Blast seems too expensive for what it does. Then again I've sometimes wished I was holding a counterspell or some sort of slightly more expensive hard counter during the mid/late game because daze can be so, so underwhelming.
Last edited by wutangkillabeezonaswarm; 02-01-2012 at 08:50 PM.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
This deck wants to dig. The deeper the better. Combine that with the fact that Ponder can shuffle away chaff on top before cantripping, and I'm not sure a 1 card (and therefore 1 turn) shallower dig is worth the slightly greater flexibility versus chaff that Preordain gives.
I think I already know the answer to this question due to logical reasoning, but the search thread tool seems to be broken so I'll just go ahead and ask: how does this deck do against Maverick?
It can go either way. Sometimes you just rip bolt after bolt off the top and burn them down before they can really get going. Other times they stabilize after a few turns and it turns into a frantic rush to drop their life down before they drop a goyf or they keep recurring punishing fire and killing all your dudes. Maverick isn't a super unfavorable matchup; I'd rather be playing against it rather than high tide or any other goldfish deck.
"It is not to be thought that the life of darkness is sunk in misery and lost as if in sorrowing. There is no sorrowing. For sorrow is a thing swallowed up in death. And death and dying are the very life of the darkness."
It really depends on what cards are drawn during the match. This deck really wants to have the turn one Delver. If Maverick has the Swords to Plowshares for it, it is in for a good game. If not, Delver will start with a small advantage. It's very difficult to beat draws like turn one Delver, turn two Guide, and have a counter for something the opponent is doing. Likewise, if Maverick plows the turn one Delver and gets to resolve a Mystic, it will have a big advantage going into the middle game (which it's assured to hit), even if the Mystic gets bolted (the threat of the equipment dominating the game at some point remains).
There are a lot of ways these decks interact with each other. Scavenging Ooze gains life and is good against Snapcaster Mage. As always, Knight is good, but it's slow. By the time it's a 4/4 and hits play, you're probaby very close to 0. If Maverick gets to untap with Mom, it could be rough. Maverick has a lot of creatures that should usually be dealt with right away (which makes it such a good deck), but because Delver plays a different game (put opponent in reach, finish him off), sometimes the creatures don't matter all that much (they don't get time to dominate the board, or when they do, it's irrelevant). Maverick needs to survive the early game unscathed. It still needs to be very cautious but if Maverick can slow the pace down, their cards are just so much better. Delver needs to get an early advantage by pressuring Maverick and countering/bolting speedbumps. If it gets to the middle game, you should have enough gas left to kill the opponent before they overpower you.
So in short, I can't really answer that question with a percentage. There are just so many factors that influence the outcome of the game. They both have the tools to beat each other though, that's for sure. I think with best play from both sides, Maverick has Delver's number.
I'd also say it around 50/50, maybe a little on Delvers site. PoP is just so good vs. maverick in lategame and Snapcaster into PoP usually seals the deal. Still, Spell Snare is awesome (SFM, Jitte, Ooze, Goyf, pridemage, Punishing Fire-yes I do counter it and especially Scryb Ranger, he's just a bomb vs. Delver). Flash, Flying, ProBlue...
I also like to Force zenit every once in a while, other than that I agree with the above.
Different question: Fire (Fire/Ice) can kill Scryb Ranger, can it not?
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
50/50? I'd lean heavily towards U/R Delver. Our deck runs burn, theirs doesn't, our deck runs counterspells, theirs doesn't. The #1 color Maverick doesn't want to play is red, we're faster than they are, we fly, and we can deal with threats a lot better than they can. They have to wait until turn 3-4 to even really start being a threat, we can be half way to the finish line by turn 3 pretty consistently.
In my experience playing against maverick, just kill everything they have and beat them to death.
I don't agree. There are more games than one during a match (Maverick having access to hateful sideboard cards that are tough to deal with). The argument, ''I'll just counter that then'' is too easy. Unless, you're completely oblivious, Maverick isn't going to put 5 non-basics into play and just die to Pop, SCM, Pop.
How can you be throwing all your burn at Maverick's creatures and then expect to have enough gas to just kill the opponent as well? It looks you're trying to have your cake and eat it all too. Swords to Plowshares and Punishing Fires take care of every creature Delver has, sometimes with value. So while I agree Delver can deal with threats better, Maverick ain't no slouch eiher. Knight of the Reliquary into a Maze is also pseudo-removal (albeit very slow) because without Wastelands, Maze will permanently knock out a creature. There are multiple forms of life gain in the Maverick deck. This means that once they establish, they will climb out of reach, sealing the game.
If you feel Delver is at an advantage, sure. But a heavy favorite? I just don't buy it.
The way you sketch the match-up it's like: You turn one Delver. Then me turn one Mom? answer. Turn two Mystic? answer. Turn three Ooze? answer. Turn 4 I'm in range; you bolt, bolt, fireblast, I'm dead.
If either one of those creatures gets to do their thing, Maverick is that much closer to establishing.
In regard to the one color I don't want to meet it's black actually. Because black is the color of combo and destruction. I don't like Dark Ritual (storm) and I don't like Smallpox (hurts bad). Lightning Bolt is fine.
In regard to Price of Progress; Sylvan Safekeeper is a great card because of it's protection ability, as well as his ability to reduce Pop damage.
I do feel the same. Always wondering if it's better to Bolt the creature (mother/ranger/bird) or my opponent. Most of the time I sit there with less cards in hand without having traded badly. Every zenit resolved is a new threat but Usually Lavamancer shines and StP dissynergieses with Ooze. So keep off Jitte and you might be ok-still a Sword on a huge knight might cost you the game (if you saced your last mountains for a fireblast).
Gobbos: Kings of flavortext!
Punishing Maverick is a largely different story. My list runs 11 burns + 3 lavamancers, fireblasts are rarely targeted at creatures, generally speaking--that's enough to kill most creatures in Maverick until they get around to Thrun.
In game two I can board in Smash to Smithereens for Stoneforge and Submerge for Ooze/Knight (either when ooze burns a lot of creatures to get big or when knight fetches).
I'm inclined to favor Delver in a match-up ratio given both decks are being played / are drawing optimally.
Against Maverick I prefer to point most of it at the creatures (prioritizing Mother).
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