We're running nearly identical lists! I used to run G for KGrip and I've tried R for 'Blasts/Bolts/Mancers, but I cut back to just plain old UW for now (I still run UWr if I'm expecting lots of mirror).
I run a Jitte main instead of a Sword. I considered SoFaF, but I don't like 3 equipment, it's too much.
I went 4 Surgicals, 4 Spell Pierce in the board. I was running 3 Surgicals for a long time, but I face a lot of Dredge, so the 4th really helps. I usually figure I need to hit 2 against Dredge (either hardcast or Snap-backed) within the first 3/4 turns. Flusterstorm is much more powerful against Storm/High Tide, but I like Spell Pierce because it can hit Artifacts/Enchantments. If the meta ever shifts to heavy storm, I will definitely go back to Flusterstorm.
Fair enough, I thought the OP was saying they're not expecting Canonist in general. From what I've gathered, Canonist isn't typically considered necessary in a control deck that has enough counters and SB alternatives that don't also restrict us unnecessarily like Canonist would... though between the SFM, manlands, flashable bodies, and equipment, I imagine Stoneblade isn't suffering too much with her. And I'm thinking you'd board out Snapcasters for the Canonists, right?Originally Posted by lordofthepit
Out of curiosity, since I don't have much experience playing against storm combo decks, what would a storm pilot do differently if they were expecting a Canonist versus not expecting one? Different SB? Different play?
Yes, Snapcasters would come out for Canonist because with Canonist in play, Snapcaster is just a 2/1 blue creature with flash, since you can't cast the spell you target with his flashback ability.
There are two major types of storm right now. ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) and EPIC Storm. Your basic strategy against both is the same, but the decks attack you in a slightly different manner, so you play against them differently. There are many different storm variations, including DFT (Doomsday, Fetchland, Tendrils), but I am going to focus on ANT and EPIC Storm because they are the most popular right now.
Most storm decks run 13-17 lands, mostly non-basics, so they can be susceptible to mana denial or poor draws.
8-12 cards are cantrips, namely Brainstorm, Ponder and Preordain.
4-8 tutors (Infernal Tutor, Burning Wish, maybe 2 Grim Tutor).
8 quick mana spells (4 Dark Ritual and 4 Cabal Therapy for ANT, 4 Dark Ritual and 4 Rite of Flame for EPIC).
8-12 mana artifacts (4 Lion's Eye Diamond, 4 Lotus Petal, up to 4 Chrome Mox).
The storm engine is usually fueled by Ad Nauseam. Most decks run 1 or 2. Recently, some decks have focused on Past in Flames as a secondary or primary storm engine. Most decks have a main deck Tendrils of Agony, although recently, some decks are relying more heavily on Empty the Warrens against certain match ups. Finally, some decks run Ill-Gotten Gains as an alternate storm engine.
Storm decks usually run 8 slots for protection. Currently, the normal deck does a 5/3 split between chant effects and discard. Chant effects are Orim's Chant and Silence and Duress is the preferred form of discard, since it doesn't cause loss of life like Thoughtseize.
ANT - ANT is usually UBw for a splash of Orim's Chant and Silence. Their basic plan is to craft their hand until they have a good shot at protected storm and then go off. What's protected storm? It's either Duressing you enough to make sure you have no way to fight back or Chanting you so you can't cast spells to fight back. Once the coast is clear, the storm player usually casts Ad Nauseam and draws half his/her deck, drops a bunch of cheap artifact mana and Dark Rituals/Cabal Therapies to reach critical storm (usually 8-9 depending upon how much damage you've done yourself with fetchlands and Force of Will) and then launches a large Tendrils at your head. One of the nastiest tricks in the storm playbook is to crack Lion's Eye Diamond in response to Infernal Tutor. With IT on the stack, storm player cracks LED(s), adding mana to his/her pool while simultaneously gaining Hellbent, allowing storm player to select any card from his/her deck. The common tutor target is Tendrils of Agony for lethal life loss.
So, you may ask, how do I fight this?
There are three important elements to your fight against the storm deck.
First, you must counter selectively.
Second, you must sideboard effectively.
Third, you must start a clock.
Starting with the first... usually, you must counter a chant effect. If the storm player successfully casts a chant effect, he/she will be able to go off without interference for the rest of that turn. Note: It is not uncommon for storm players to chant you on your turn (during your upkeep) in order to cast Ad Nauseam on your endstep to fill their hand with good stuff and then go off on their next turn. For example, a storm player has 7 cards in hand with a white mana source and a black mana source. During the upkeep of my 2nd turn, the storm player chants me, but I think nothing of it, as my only play was to make a land drop. During my endstep, the storm player casts Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam, drawing 23 cards and leaving himself at 2 life. During his turn, he draws for his turn, drops a land and proceeds to drop artifact mana, chants, duresses and a Tendrils of Agony for lethal. Note: When the storm player Ad Nauseams, every card is revealed. If you realize you cannot win the Chant war, you might as well hold back, as your counterspells are only upping his/her storm count. Usually this won't matter, but let's say he/she draws poorly off the Ad Nauseam, the extra counterspell or two you add to the storm count may be your demise.
The sideboard plan against storm is usually to bring in additional counters in the form of Spell Pierce or Flusterstorm. Spell Pierce is more versatile, since it can hit enchantments and artifacts as well, but Flusterstorm was made to halt storm mages. Regarding what to remove, most players remove their creature removal (since the standard storm deck has no creatures) and their slower spells (like Elspeth, Crucible of Worlds, Jace, etc.) Against ANT, you have to be cautious about taking out all your creature removal, as some decks run Dark Confidant or Xantid Swarm in the sideboard. Swarm is more popular when Counterbalance decks are popular, so the storm player can also bring in Krosan Grip against the Counterbalance. I usually get around the Confidant/Swarm dilemma through leaving in my Umezawa's Jitte, as the -1/-1 counters kill these creatures, the Jitte's life gain can be relevant to keep you out of reach of storm, and the +2/+2 counters can end the game more quickly. If you know a player is bringing in Confidant's/Swarms, keep some of your Swords to Plowshares in your deck.
Start a clock: What does this mean? Get some beaters on the board to start taking down the storm player's life total. Batterskull is particularly good for this, as while he is beating them down, he is pushing your life total out of storm range. Additionally, Vendilion Clique is very strong due to its flash ability and hand disruption.
The ANT player has 3 forms of disruption - discard, chants and bounce. Usually, they run discard and chants main with additional discard and bounce in the board. Against UW, the storm player is going to remove some cantrips and artifact mana to add additional discard or chants (usually +3 cards), so his/her final disruption package will look like 5-6 Chants / 5-6 Discard. You can use your Brainstorms to hide valuable cards from his discard effects. Against a creature based deck, the storm player is going to add bounce Chain of Vapor, Echoing Truth, Wipe Away to bounce pesky creatures like Gaddock Teeg and Ethersworn Canonist. Bounce may also be used against cards like Leyline of Sanctity. That is why we said no storm player would expect Canonist from a UW deck and it would probably catch him/her off guard.
Some storm decks also bring in Defense Grid. If you know this is coming, bring in your artifact hate or try to counter it as it is being played.
Against EPIC storm, the major difference from ANT is that they have access to Pyroblast. Usually, they will take out -1 Ponder, -1 Chrome Mox, -1 Infernal Tutor and +3 Pyroblast. So, you have to fight Chants (usually 5), discard (usually 3 Duress) and counterspells (3 Pyroblast). The good news about EPIC Storm is that they don't run creatures or Defense Grip, so you can know what to expect.
I hope this helps. Both match ups are extremely draw dependent. Both ANT and EPIC Storm can and do go off first turn. However, we are the best suited deck in the current meta to fight them, with Force of Will, Counterspell, Spell Snare and Spell Pierce/Flusterstorm.
As with any deck, the best way to learn how to beat it is to play it yourself. I used to lose to storm all the time just because I didn't understand how to play against it. I was counterspelling every spell the storm player tried to cast and I didn't understand how storm went off or what cards were essential to cast. After playing storm, I have a better understanding of the deck and now better know how to play against it.
Water_Wizard gave a summary. Here's what I would think if I were playing storm.
Usually, Storm decks play 3 forms of protection:
1) discard - always Duress, but ANT will frequently play Thoughtseize in addition
2) chant effects - Orim's Chant/Silence, occasionally Xantid Swarm, which has fallen out of favor. There are always 3-4 copies in TES, but occasionally in ANT as well.
3) Pyroblast (always Pyro, and not REB, because they need to build storm sometimes). This usually comes from the sideboard in TES; ANT is unlikely to run it.
4) bounce effects - from the sideboard; usually some mix of Wipe Away, Chain of Vapor, and Echoing Truth. Occasionally, creature removal such as Slaughter Pact, Deathmark, etc.
Storm decks also expect several types of hate:
1) countermagic - Chant effects are amazing (blanks Spell Snare and Stifle), whereas discard is merely solid
2) permanent-based hate (like Chalice or Counterbalance) - These are out of favor now, but are a compelling reason to run more discard effects
3) hate bears - Technically fall under category #2, but Thoughtseize > Duress in this case
Against a deck like Maverick which features mostly hate bears, I would board out my Chant effects for bounce spells; in addition, I'd max out my Thoughtseizes (and cut extra Duresses) if I were on ANT. Against a deck with a lot of counters, I would keep my mainboard, possibly adding Pyroblasts if I were on TES, since they deal with Vendilion Clique (the best piece of hate you can have after turn 3).
Since I would not expect Ethersworn Canonist out of a mostly blue deck, I would not have my bounce spells at my disposal if Canonist escaped my discard. If I played a Burning Wish package, I might have some removal there, but it's incredibly difficult to play around Canonist + countermagic. So that would be a potential blowout.
I'd keep in Snapcaster Mages though, despite the dissynergy with Canonist, since it still buys back your Snares and Pierces. Snapcaster isn't the greatest against Storm combo, but there are certainly worse cards to cut (i.e. Stoneforge Mystic, which is only good if they go for Empty the Warrens).
However, since U/W Stoneblade has a decent matchup against storm (not necessarily favorable, but not abysmal just by the virtue of playing Force of Will), most Storm players would not expect additional hate in the form of Ethersworn Canonist (relatively narrow) from the board.
TES is also known to run Swarms in the sideboard since they run rainbow lands, this is no problem for them. ANT usually has a Tropical Island in the sideboard if it runs Swarms. Either often play Cabal Therapy in their discard slot, when they do, they often have Swarms in the sideboard for the flashback. But it doesn't have to be the case, because Therapy is alot better since Gitaxian Probe.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
This.
To bring the discussion back to life, I will post a list now, which I try to sculpt for a meta mainly consisting of: maverick (especially with punishing fire), delver (including RUG, UW and UR), burn (all sorts) and spiral tide
Removal (7):
4 Swords To Plowshares
3 Punishing Fire
Planeswalker (4):
3 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
Countersuite (10):
4 Force Of Will
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
Stoneforge package (5):
3 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword Of Feast And Famine
Card quality / advantage (9):
4 Brainstorm
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
Random (1):
1 Crucible Of Worlds
Lands (24):
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Grove Of The Burnwillows
3 Tundra
3 Island
3 Wasteland
1 Plains
1 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Karakas
Sideboard (15):
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Wrath Of God
2 Path To Exile
2 Krosan Grip
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
2 Engineered Explosives
Thoughts on numbers:
- only 3 punishing fire, because 7 removal plus snapcaster is already very much for any deck, that is not maverick and I don't want to draw punishing fire in multiples in the early game
- only 3 spell snares, but 3 counterspells, because counterspell is infinitely better in the mid-game and I tried to tune my manabase to having UU 2nd or 3rd turn
- only 3 mystics, because I nearly never tap out on my second turn to play him, and in most games want to draw into it (plus it's a very bad topdeck in the lategame)
- only 3 snapcaster because of punishing fire (I used to play pathes in UW, but now there are less targets for him)
- the crucible to fight opposing groves with wastelock ;) and it's super against canadian, and to protect my own groves
Sorry, have to stop here, because I am busy.
Let me know what you think ;)
Guys, what are you thoughts on Geist of Saint Traft? Is it a good replacement for Vendilion Clique or should they both stay in the main deck?
And also, with this deck, when is the optimal moment to cast clique? 3r turn after the opponent drew a card? Or at EOT if I have a counterspell in hand so I can cast it?
Currently playing in Legacy:
Burn
Affinity
Merfolk
Depends on your matchup, against combo it's better to keep the Cliques in because they obviously aren't packing any creature removal. Geist is better against decks other than combo.
I recommend casting Clique EOT so you can commence beatdown ASAP and at the same time have the mana available to counter any of his spells.
TBH, I don't play any Stoneforge deck
As a Storm player, Canonist is exactly what would I've expected... nearly all list are netdecked the same...
against Ant is always correct to board as much GY hate as possible (only Extractins for TES) + counterspells... unless you are sure they don't play Xantid swarm, leave some Stp in +add jitte over batteskull... out some lands, planeswalkers (when you tap out you're probably dead) ... and use Snapcaster only for Spellsnare/CS lock... no stupid brainstorming EOT unless necessary... with tight play and decent luck you should win...
Geist is very good, especially with Sword of X and Y (I still prefer Fire and Ice). Clique is a must for sideboard against combo and control.
Always at the end of the draw step and I think you need to cast Clique in basically every scenario against combo asap because next to hand-disruption you also put down a clock.
Why would you need mana to counter a spell when you can also Clique it away? What if he has a Chant, mana and an enabler like Infernal Tutor? I think Cliqueing asap is the best play in most scenario's.
If it walks like a duck and talks like a duck, it's probably delicious.
Team ADHD-To resist is to piss in the wind. Anyone who does will end up smelling.
I raised this question in another forum, but have we considered Mother of Runes as a 4 of - this may help with the Maverick MU.
She turns off their removal and blocks fatties all day. It lets us survive until Jace or until we assemble a beater with a billion Swords on him.
It depends on the opponent and the situation. Usually, the correct answer is during your opponent's draw step, immediately, if you are trying to prevent them from dropping a sorcery-speed bomb in the mid-to-late game. During your opponent's draw step or EOT are both valid if you're trying to clear the way for your bomb on the next turn. If you're facing down an opposing planeswalker, and you need to flash in an evasive 3/1 flyer, it's often EOT. You might consider in response to a Jace Brainstorm activation to bottom their best threat.
Against Storm combo, the answer is usually "at the end of their ritual/LED chain"--the longer, the better--but it takes some skill to know read when they will end the chain. It's also a solid play in response to a Chant effect or a Thoughtseize. Against Show and Tell, the answer is either a) in response to the Show and Tell if they force the issue, but possibly b) at the end of their turn if they're slowly sculpting their hand and you need to apply some quick pressure on them. Against Aether Vial or Stoneforge Mystic, the correct answer is "in response to their activation", if possible; note that for this reason, it's often worth bluffing an Aether Vial activation even when you have nothing to drop.
So I'll be heading to GP KL to play the legacy side event and I feel like tuning my list towards it. I play the standard maindeck but with 4 Jaces and SOBM + 2 Paths. I don't count on hitting superfriends because being blue for pitching to Force is pretty important to me. Also if you draw 2 Jaces, you can just brainstorm it back in to the deck.
So since most of the players will be Malaysian, Singaporean and Filipino, the decks I'm expecting will be pretty budget. The last time I went I played 4c Landstill and got crushed by Goblins, Dragon Stompy and Eva Green. I expect to see the usual Tier 1 decks, but not a lot of them. The usual suspects would be combo elves, dredge, goblins, merfolk, burn and mono black/splash goyf.
So what do you guys suggest in this kind of meta? I'm going to replace my SOBM with Jitte because it is such a bomb against all sorts of tribal and burn. I can also use it to shoot my own creatures to get rid of bridges against dredge. I'll stick to my paths and Jaces in the main. For the board, here is what I'm playing:
2 Surgical
2 Purify the Grave (worse against dredge but insane VS reanimator)
3 Wrath of God (So much Aggro!)
1 Elspeth
1 Crucible
4 Spell Pierce (Flexible Catchall)
2 Disenchant
Thoughts?
Did this thread just lose like 5 days of posts?
Haha - I thought the same thing, but I think it's because UW isn't really hot anymore. The meta has evolved. With the release of DA, who knows what will happen. I can tell you, I don't think UW or Maverick are as dominant as they once were, as the format shifted to reward decks that punish U/W and Maverick. Nic Fit comes to mind as one of these decks.
I think your sideboard looks really solid. It is probably too late to comment (you probably already played today) and it is impossible to comment on a sideboard without seeing the main deck list. You could probably drop a jace main and add an elspeth and drop and elspeth and crucible from the board to add 2 paths, if you expect a lot of budget decks. If you are running 4 STP, 4 PTE and 2 WOG, you could either add the 4th jace, 2nd elspeth, crucible or engineered explosives to the sideboard.
While i think you are right in general i have to say that nic fit has a bad matchup against U/W as any plainswalker wins the game on its own. So i found out that putting a plainswalker and protecting it against their pulses leads to an easy win.Haha - I thought the same thing, but I think it's because UW isn't really hot anymore. The meta has evolved. With the release of DA, who knows what will happen. I can tell you, I don't think UW or Maverick are as dominant as they once were, as the format shifted to reward decks that punish U/W and Maverick. Nic Fit comes to mind as one of these decks.
I'm trying to tune my list to help the U/r and the Rug delver lists. I added Engineered explosives (i play UWr). Has anyone experience with this card in this matchup?
If you're playing a splash, EE is good in tons of situations. I think I maybe used it against a Delver list once. Great for getting rid of those 0-2cc bodies, especially when your opponent overcommits. Not having any 0-1cc creatures ourselves (other than the Germ) is a bonus. Just watch out for Stifle.
If you look, most of the DTB threads have been pretty quiet in the past week.
It's almost as if a new expansion just got released this weekend, and folks have been busy with that (and I didn't see much in DA that directly impacts us).
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