While I've never run Nether Void in Pox, I've run it in a Mono Black Stax deck running Chalice, Sphere's, and 2xNether Void. I brought it to a few tournaments and after going 1-3, 2-2, 2-2 etc. over and over I gave up trying to make it work, it felt almost "too cool" but just wasn't paying off for me in THAT deck (not saying at all that someone couldn't make it work in another , aka Pox or w/e).Originally Posted by Shawon
You said black Standstill, or black CounterTop... Imho, it's more like the former, since it affects both players and in that it can be inconsistent and if you're +Board Position, its awesome and you ride it to victory (nothings cooler than having a 3sphere+Void in play and beating them with a factory I'll tell you). But like so many times, if they got a Goyf or something up on you, it's the opposite having it in your hand. I'd simply not be able to play it till I'd remove their threat, then they play another threat their turn, etc.
Nether Void is such a tough card to work with. From what I've seen, it either needs to come out early in some sorta all-in control deck and stop them right away (Chalice, Unmask, sphere's) or it comes out later in a control deck, like Pox or MBC to lock them out once you've gotten the advantage. The ladder is probably better.
I threw one in my SB, not really 'cause I wanted to just because I could. But to be honest the one problem I have with it is Trinisphere works so much better under LD, because under Sinkhole's and waste it plays much more like the black Countertop because it allows you to lock them out AND be able to play your spells if you stay above 3 land, whereas Nether Void is symmetrical.. you have to be GUARANTEED the better board position before you considering playing whereas 3sphere you can drop even if they have a goyf out, if your say at 3 land and they're at 2, and if you were to topdeck Sinkholes under Nether Void you need 5 mana till you can play it.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
I myself have never used Nether Void in Pox, but I have used it and various other "+___ to cast cost" cards in other decks, almost always a deck with a strong LD element. With Pox, which has a strong LD element, the fact it also attacks the hand even more so makes me think you might just be spreading yourself too thin. Add to that it hinders you too as you blow up your own lands with S/Pox.
In the event you wanted to go this route, and I'm not saying it can't or shouldn't be done, I would say make room for them by reducing the amount of discard (since you don't plan on letting them cast things anyway) and be sure to add in some mana producing arts.
On a practical note, if you don't already have Nether Void this is an expensive way to go. Sinkholes are not cheap, but they are a lot more common and easier to trade for. A Nether Void you are much more likely to have to pay cash for.
Funny story, reason I have two.. they ended up sending me an extra on accident. Okay, that wasn't really funny at all, screw u all I got a free cardA Nether Void you are much more likely to have to pay cash for.
@Grollub
Sorry I missed, yeah I switched it out to sideboard! You're totally right, but I'd been seeing so many decks with basic lands that I made one of those executive decisions to run Sculler MD instead since I've been seing a lot of combo and slower blue & black decks.Have you considered a singleton Crucible in your list? Being a singleton it's never a "dead" draw, the ability to recover much faster than your opponent and protecting your Tombs whilst also getting the threat of Crucible/Waste seems fairly solid for just a single card's inclusion.
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
Well, I won't disagree with you that Nether Void can be a double-edged sword and almost fatal if you play it when you're at an unfavorable board position, but the choice of keeping Nether Void MD g2 and g3 is up to you when you facing specific decks. All I know is that Nether Void works against the decks it can beat.
For a second I was dumbfounded as to why you think Trinisphere is a better than Nether Void against an opponent, but I see where you're coming from now, that it keeps your own spells relatively cheap, e.g. Sinkhole. My variation of the Smallpox deck (I actually found what I think is a cool and fitting name, "Meat Grinder") has a dense manabase, so I'm always flooded with lands. I personally have no worries about waiting to have 5 lands in play so I can cast Sinkhole, because I know the opponent will have a harder time drawing lands (unless they're a Loam/NicFit deck, the latter which I fucking hate). Even if I had a shakier manabase, I don't mind getting mana-screwed if it makes your opponent casting a life-saving Brainstorm that much harder.
The thing I like most about Nether Void is making your opponent's hate that much more expensive. Against BW decks, you NEVER want to see your opponent cast Vindicate, unless they use it on something stupid like your lands. Nether Void making Vindicate cost 4WB is a very specific reason why I prefer Nether Void over Trinisphere, but only one of many reasons.
Last edited by Shawon; 01-11-2012 at 08:23 PM.
For a similar effect, has anyone tried sideboard Sphere of Resistance? I was thinking of sideboarding 3 of them as an alternative to Nether Void.
It's good in Stax builds vs combo, but you already run a lot of discard... so, I'm not sure how much use you'll find to be honest. Enlighten me?
May your suffering equal your weakness--Ihsan's Shade
hey guys
im gonna play this list tomorrow around 20 person will be there i was just wandering what do you think of this
creature 1
1 nether spirit
disrupt 24
4 hymn to tourach
4 sinkhole
4 small pox
4 innocent blood
4 thoughseize
4 inquisition of kozilek
spell 15
4 lili
4 top
3?cursed scroll
4 dark ritual
mana 21
4 wasteland
6 fetch
4 factory
1 tomb of urami
6 swamp
sideboard
4 extirpate
2 extraction
4 dark blast
4 bitter blossom
what's gonna be there i think ad nauseum, team america, and stoneforge aggro deck
i know this list is a bit extreme but i think thats the goal of a pox deck no...?(maybe tho im just rabbling nonsense...) what are your thaught of a very greedy pox deck like that does it make any sense at all ??
What do you exactly mean by being greedy? When I think of 'greedy' I think about adding cards that contribute inevitability to the Smallpox deck, such as Crucible of Worlds or Life from the Loam.
Anyway, if you want some constructive criticism, I think you can simmer down on the turn 1 discard count. 8 Thoughtseize effects are too much. They are terrible topdecks. I think you're just fine with 4 MD, but between the 75, 5-6 Thoughtseizes should be just fine.
And I know Tomb of Urami is tempting, but don't use it. The lifeloss is significant. This is why I cut Cabal Pit from the deck. When you're taking a beating from aggro, the last land you want to see is a land that costs you life to use.
The Spheres would be a little faster then Void, and much cheaper without being that much worse.
Though I admit I've only played about 5 or so matches with the deck, one card I never really liked drawing was Dark Ritual. I found the -1 in CA to be critical, and a lot of the time, I didn't feel safe running out a Turn 1 Lily anyway.
Has anyone tried maindecked Crucibles in this deck? I tried it as a 1-of and I liked it for the lategame.
I've been testing off and on -4 Dark Ritual, +3 Mox Diamond, +1 Crucible of Worlds. From results so far it's more or less even. You get some explosives starts with Rituals, especially if you're hitting stuff like Nether Void, The Abyss, Liliana, & various SB cards way ahead of curve.
On the other hand Crucible and Mox Diamonds have great synergy, but are just a little slower. Another minor plus side is that the Diamonds can fuel an Engineered Explosives in the SB, which I've found invaluable at times.
I find myself going back to the Dark Rituals though, most of the time. This deck can generally afford to 2-for-1 itself for an early advantage and some mediocre top decks late, since you're pretty much emptying both player's hands ASAP anyway.
You know what has become a favorite SB replacement in the slot of cards like The Abyss though? Tainted Aether. Seriously. It's just mean on top of the LD package against all sorts of decks that you want to bring it in against, ie mana hungry aggro decks. It even hoses Bridge From Below & Ichorid really hard.
I don't think you should add grafdigger, every graveyard deck will just bounce it or destroy it and the card leaves the graveyard untouched, so they will just be able to continue dredging/reanimating like nothing ever happened.
I'm Running 3 Extirpate and 2 Nihil Spellbomb in my sideboard, i belive that should be enough to stop those decks.
I don't know that I would not play a card because it will get hated. If that is the case why play any card? Gage if it gets destroyed does its job either way. Pox does not have that many bombs, why not add another?
The best bang since the big one!
I guess that's directed at my post... but i cant see where i wrote that you shouldnt play a card because it will get hated? Graveyard based decks are already running cards to deal with graveyard hate, using cards that exiles the graveyard is in my opinion superior to a card that just leaves the graveyard intact. Since most decks will be able to destroy it the next turn, it will not have accomplished anything.
@zathe922
thats fair.
I personally like both options. The cage stops Maverick and all decks that use NO and Green sun's Zenith, also stops Snapcaster based decks. The application of the card is almost limitless in Legacy, and added with cards that kill off the entire graveyard it just adds another thing your opponent has to find an answer too.
The best bang since the big one!
I don't think graffidiggers fits here because the graveyard is a pretty strong tool for pox. I personally run 4 crucible of worlds in my list but at the very least most lists run 2. Attacking people's lands can be an effective game plan. Some decklist also run bloodghast. Yes, it stops NO and GSZ, but I think dedicating your sb to more focused hate for the match-up in the form of perish, more creature removal, or even something like cursed totem would be stronger. I think extirpate would work much better vs snapcaster mage and other matches in general.
I actually didn't like Nether void too much. After extensive play I realized there are times where I will want to play spells and won't be able to cast them with the void.
Instead I've been mainboarding one The Abyss. It's just dirt nasty especially when powering it out on t2 via dark ritual. I had no idea Tainted aether exists and that will now be run alongside the Abyss in my main deck.
Pox gets annoyed when multiple creatures are on the field. It's probably the biggest weakness of the deck and I feel these two gems handle that problem better than Nether Void.
For the sake of debate, here is why I don't like Nether Void (but still acknowledge that it's a good card.)
1) You want explosive plays and cards that fit in any scenario at any stage of the game. As I previously said a t2 Abyss or tainted aether is great. A t2 Nethervoid probably isn't the best answer if you're not holding a Factory.
2) Some people will say Nether Void is better against combo. While I do agree with you guys I ask what good will a 1-of in a deck with no way to tutor or dig for it do against decks that consistently combo off on t3/t4.
3) If you have two Nether Voids (you obviously did some things you aren't too proud of to get them) main deck the second one becomes a dead draw. Where as Abyss and Aether can be played together and become even more disgusting for your opponent.
4) Also with Abyss and/or aether on the field you can now devote all of your cursed scroll violence to your opponent's dome and get an easier win without having to worry about newly entered threats slowing you down.
5) screw you stoneforge, maverick, and dredge. Every time batterskull hits the field they'll have to sacrifice the token, the mystic or a land. We profit no matter what they choose.
Well, if you're running Tainted Aether and The Abyss, Nether Void certainly gets less one-sided and ultimately worse so I can understand you taking it out. I can never take it out of the MD anymore, it's practically the only way I beat Burn.
I actually think MD Abyss is a pretty ingenius idea. I hated it in the sb because it's not what you need to really shore up the creature matches. I've been meaning to replace my MD Dismember. All I could come up with was Damnation and Darkblast. I;m going to try MD Abyss.
Is Tainted Aether really good? The fact that your opponent can choose to sacrifice a land makes it a dealbreaker to me. I hate giving my opponent choices (this is why cards like Browbeat are terrible).
Tainted aether would be amazing if it added the ability to the card being cast. being if the player could not sacrifice a land or creature, the creature could not be cast.
I like it though, never tried it, and wont be able to now, because I am changing my Pox build to be more aggro.
@Shawon
I cant do Nether void, the only deck I need help with is Burn, and by the time I can cast Void, I'm dead. it can be cheated with Dark Ritual but I hate depending on that card.
also, with Tainted Aether, I feel the same about browbeat, with them choosing, it is always going to be the wrong choice for you. But if you play Pox, over Smallpox, you can make it so their choice is always harder, and more in your favor. actually I am going to add this to my buy list, and redo my creature-less Pox. I;d like to try it.
The best bang since the big one!
While it is true that giving choices aren't always the best idea, consider the land count in legacy decks, most don't run more than 21, and four to six of those lands are fetches. If they chose to sacrifice the land in order to keep the creature we just deal with the creature via scroll, innocent blood, small pox, or liliana. We have the means to deal with creatures, we just can't deal with too many. If they're popping lands to keep creatures they hurt their ability to play more creatures later on in the game
Also, I play sinkholes and wastelands and I notice most builds on thesource seem to have strayed from the land destruction package in favor of heavier discard.
I started out with a heavy discard package and no land destruction and the strategy is a valid one, but I find top decking an inquisition isn't too fabulous. If you run the sinkholes and wastelands you're attacking more resources and making it harder to for them to pull out a win. The land destruction package is also what makes tainted aether a nice addition to my deck.
Have you tried cards like Engineered Plague or Perish
I personally like the plague against goblins, merfolk, and elves. The more you draw the more you lock them out. And use in tandem with dark ritual on turn 1 is pretty much an auto scoop for them.
Perish would be optimal against maverick and such.
The only aggro match up that could be problematic is the Zoo match up, but if you run land destruction a simple wasteland will shrink all their creatures.
Burn is the only really hard non combo match up but from experience if you keep a hand with inquisition and hymn you'll make them sad all day long.
i have to get this off my chest. There are not many more people than me who are as excited that the name Pox is finishing high in tournaments. Since 98 I have been trying to win with Pox in every format that will allow it. I have never placed in a major tourney. Full disclosure.
But I am getting tired, of all these "Pox" decks that call themselves Pox decks despite the glaring omision of the card, that captivated me 15 years ago.... Pox.
Running one Pox, or 4 Smallpox doesnt make the deck a Pox deck.
Ali Aintrazi did very good with this "Loam Pox" deck, but the major problem is, he was not running Loam Pox, he was running Loam. Loam was his engine, not Pox.
Pox is an engine, it is a state of mind. It is the difference between a Burn player and a Sligh player. Burn players do not care much about defensive magic, Sligh players do.
Pox is less a control card, than it is a weapon. Force of Will is not a weapon, it is a shield. Pox is not a defensive card, it attacks the opponent, all the while also becoming a defensive force.
a Bayou deck was a Vintage deck kind of like a junk deck. Pernicious deed was a staple in it, regrowth, discard, a few creatures, I forget the main big bomb in it. when Life from the Loam was printed, I thought Bayou was going to get stronger, because I thought Bayou players would just add in Pox, and go balls out. They didnt. Pox was too slow. Legacy became popular, I thought I finally had a format to fully run Pox at its potential, I did better than I had ever done, but still wasn't good enough. I quit a few years ago, Counterballance made Magic complete unfun, I already hate counterspel magic, and players, that was just too much to handle.
But when I came back I discovered the game slowed down, and favored creatures. Pox is at its best right now, and is almost a tier one deck, it would be if these people who had the resources would stop being sissies, and go for it.
Smallpox is nice, two mana for 1 life, creature, land, and a card in their hand, but really not all that powerful. It is the same thing that makes Browbeat a bad card, the decision is theirs. And when the decision is theirs it will almost always be the wrong decision for you.
On average a Pox will nab two lands, two creatures, make them dump at least one card, and lose 5 life. when they have to start deciding on more than one thing for each category, this will cause mistakes, then a Smallpox becomes even more devastating.
4 Pox
4 Smallpox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Snuff out
4 IoK
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Vampire Nighthawk
4 Carnophage
4 Bloodghast
3 Death's shadow
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Darkmor Salvage
17 Swamp
this is the build I might start running.
I know there are flaws, but I am willing to try different things.
first off, why run, both Vampire Nighthawk, and Death's Shadow.
in Pox you want to minimize your dead draws, and when you have a Nighthawk in play Death's Shadow becomes either an uncastable spell, or a very small creature. or vise versa, if you have an established Shadow in play why cast a Nighthawk?
well for one, it has Deathtouch and it flys. Also, it is not terrible when you have an 11/11 shadow stomping around to make it a 9/9 either way it is Path bait, but now your opponent needs to make a decision on who to exhile.
also, I have 8 pox effects in the deck. If I have both a Nighthawk and a Shadow on the board, and Pox, I can decide how I want the rest of the game to go. If Poxing puts me and opponent each with one creature, at very low life, but his one creature is say a 10/10 If i keep the Nighthawk both creatures die, if I am at one or two, my Death Shadow is larger than his creature, I can win the battle. Again vice versa if I need to gain life, to gain a turn to make sure my opponent doesnt pull any trickery on me.
I would love to run more than one Jitte, maybe one day I will, but I only own one of them.
cursed scroll and DTop are obviously to minimize dead draws.
also, with Pox, and drawing deadspells like a Death's Shadow if my board contains a Vampire Nighthawk, if I have say a spell I need for later, and a pox, I cant just cast Pox and ditch the card. But if Nighthawk has established itself on the board, and I am in the Pox situation with a card I need to keep, my decision becomes easy if I draw a Death's Shadow in the next turn, as opposed to, say a Jitte.
just because the two do not seemingly fit together, doesnt mean they both cannot be in the same deck. It is not like trying to run Life from the Loam with Cursed Scroll...
as for Sideboard,
I run
3 Ensnaring Bridge,
3 Chalice of the Void
3 surgical extraction
3 Perish
3 Bojuka Bog
I run Bridge because this deck is an auto lose against zoo, too many creatures, for me to deal with, with the Bridge I can play around it. Zoo has to try and burn me out.
Chalice is for Burn. I can deal with their Mauraders, and Hellsparks. I cannot deal with the Lightning Bolt, Chain Lightning, Goblin Guide, FIgure of Destiny, Lava Spike. a chalice for one, kills off, Iok, Dark Ritual, Death's Shadow, Scroll, Top, and Carnophage. 18 of my spells. but I would have taken three out for the Chalice anyway, I would take three more out for Surgical extraction, which drops me down to 12. this is all assuming I draw a chalice, and at this point.
my opponent is left with only 14 cards in their deck they can cast, which usually is, Maurader, Hellspark, Fireblast, Rift Bolt, 4-6 of which depending on their creature layout I can deal with. I will trade against burn losing 12 spells that I can cast, to leaving them with only 14 that they can cast.
The best bang since the big one!
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