Massacre is the real deal in this current metagame and should be included if you are seeing a lot of Maverick, some types of Bant decks, Deadguy Ale, and is even pretty good vs. UW Stoneforge. It's *free*, doesn't get hit by Spell Snare, kills Mother of Runes and other Pro-black dorks, doesn't cost life, and can lead to huge board swings (and also won't typically kill your own Goyfs/Stalkers). Just save your 'real' removal for their KotRs and Oozes.
It also functions as a pseudo-Damnation vs. Elves and Goblins if you happen to run into those decks.
I'm running 2 in my SB right now, but I'm actually considering going up to 3 or 4 since it does a lot of what I want Pernicious Deed to do, just faster.
Yup, Massacre has been the absolute nuts. I might even try to fit one in the MD.
I tried running Massacre. It's been really good and I think I will keep 2 in sideboard.
As for Liliana, is it necessary to run Life from the Loam? I don't think it's as necessary as stated from other people on this and other MTG forums.
Just throwing a potential list out there for testing:
19 lands (cut either a fetchland or the 4th underground sea)
4 Goyf
4 Delver
3 Tombstalker
4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Snuff Out
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Predict
With the cantrips and an unflipped Delver, Predict is somewhat consistent with providing card advantage (and also helps feed an early/multiple Tombstalkers). This is basically the RUG delver deck, except your removal is better against Goyf/Knight.dec, and you have Hymn and Tombstalker and black SB options.
Hey guys I thought of entering this archetype aswell, and so Id be very happy if you gave me some decent feedback on the first list I thought of.
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
4 Wastelands
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
1 Tropical Island
//19
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
2 Snapcaster Mage
//13
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Snuff Out
1 Dismember
1 Go for the Throat
//8
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
//8
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
//12
Is this list okay? Did I make any grave mistakes in building this?
Thanks for advice.
Greetings.
Pretty minor issue, but since you're a BUG deck with no basics, your fetches should be U/B, U/G, or B/G to access every dual land in your deck. Replace the Marsh Flats with a Misty Rainforest.Originally Posted by Philipp802
IMO, 19 lands is on the low-side, even for TA in a format that has too many wastelands running around. The Snapcasters do not work well with the Tombstalkers and in general, snapcasters are weaker in TA than in BUG control due to the restriction of mana. Snapcasters also do not work well with Snuff Out. My opinion is to either go with Snapcasters or with Tombstalkers but not both in the same deck. If you don't, it MAY work if you decide to run TS as a 1-of and you up the land count to 20. Also, remove the Marsh Flat for another fetchland that can grab any land in your deck.
There is a long conversation on whether Stifle or T1 discard is more effective. I personally believe the T1 discard is stronger than the mana denial and occasional usefulness of stifle but you can decide that for yourself.
I think what would give you a stronger game would be planeswalkers, particularly Jace and Liliana. You should give them a try and see what you think of them. It will make it a bit more controllish, but a TA/BUG control variant works better than a pure tempo TA in this aggressive meta.
Ye what a fail with the fetchlands - but what about 4 Goyf 4 Delver 4 Snapcaster and Stifle, Daze, Force, Hymn, Thoughtseize?
My list would look like this then:
20 lands (including 4 Wastelands, rest Fetchs and Duals)
4 Goyf
4 Delver
4 Snapcaster
//12 Core-Creatures
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
//20 Core-Spells
3 Ghastly Demise
2 Dismember
3 Ponder
//8 Extra-spells
Would this be playable? Snapcasters just double the amount of spells available, and with the nonexistence of Tombstalker Ghastly Demise is playable... What do you think?
I don't like Stifle as much as I like T1 discard. However you still need to keep your blue count high; I like it above 19+ at all times.
If you haven't tried it yet, Sylvan Library is just awesome. So is Liliana if you can fit her in. I also like Jace, but you will need at least 21 lands if you plan to play him
I'd drop a daze and consider Spell Snares/Pierces.
I would also turn a Ghastly Demise into a Smother. Don't be too GY dependent. It's also harder to hit larger creatures, especially KotR.
One last small issue, Snapcaster is rather mana hungry so keep in mind that 20 lands is borderline appropriate.
Overall my suggestions will shift TA more toward BUG control while still keeping TA elements. It just seems to do better in a format filled with Maverick and RUG tempo.
I feel like Stifle is a must in TA. Without it, other people just pop their fetchlands and wasteland my lands when ever they want.
If I want to play a Stifle-less version of TA, I would rather play BUG control. But that's another story.
Ive done a few changes from my list above:
First of all I cut one Ponder and 1 Land for 2 Liliana of the Veil. - This turned out to be great, it won me so many of games
Now I want to change something else again, I want to fit in a few Spell Snares just because of the pure power of them, but what to cut?
Id suggest 1 Snappy and 1 Hymn to Tourach for 2 Spell Snares? Maybe a Ghastly Demise for a third?
What do you think?
19 Lands seems to be too less for a Deck which wants to support Snapcaster Mages and Spells which cost double black.
Also with the addition of Planeswalkers like Liliana, you go into a more controlish direction, why I suggest you BUG Control. Cut the Stifles and add some Lands, Canadian is the better Stifle-Deck anyways.
If I would play BUG, I would take advante of cards like Jace, Liliana and Pernicious Deed.
But if you want to try to keep the Stifle-Waste strategy, try cards like Nimble Mongoose, Thoughseize and/or Dark Confidant.
What would you suggest considering my list posted above Bierbaron? As told im kinda new to this kind of tempodeck - but is Confidant and Mongoose really good enough?
Would you cut Snapcasters entirely?
Greetings
I second the motion on this statement. For reference here is the list I'm testing:I feel like Stifle is a must in TA. Without it, other people just pop their fetchlands and wasteland my lands when ever they want.
If I want to play a Stifle-less version of TA, I would rather play BUG control. But that's another story.
3x Bayou
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Polluted Delta
2x Tropical Island
4x Underground Sea
3x Verdant Catacombs
4x Wasteland
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Tarmogoyf
3x Tombstalker
4x Brainstorm
1x Darkblast
3x Daze
1x Diabolic Edict
4x Force of Will
1x Go For The Throat
3x Inquisition of Kozilek
3x Ponder
2x Snuff Out
2x Spell Snare
4x Stifle
My understanding of Team America is it is a tempo deck much like RUG only it runs more free spells and no burn spells. Both decks operate the same way: Stifle fetch, waste their lands, land a delver or another crit and ride it to victory. Black providing the creature hate plus others and especially, Tombstalker to close out games early much like burn does with red. I've been following both this thread and the BUG thread and could honestly say that they are both two different decks. Running a hybrid version will lead to confusion as to what role would you be playing since BUG wants to win midgame to late as compared to TA that almost always have no lategame plan. Pretty much linear plan if I play first and the Stifle+Waste sequence have been achieved, most likely we will win.
@Philipp802
How did your first list go compared to the changes that you have made? I noticed your running Snaps instead of Stalkers. How is Liliana in the approach that you have taken?
Do NOT take out Hymn. It's a central card to TA and you should never be running less than 4.
I would add a land back in; 19 is too little for 2 planeswalker and Snapcaster.
I would consider taking out one Snapcaster for a snare. I would stick with 5 creature removal though. I still think one of the Ghastly should be a non-GY dependent removal.
I did cut 1 Hymn and 1 Snapcaster and put in 2 Spell Snares. I tested quite alot on Cockatrice and in the end I gotta say I mostly have some problems with Dredge, which may be just because Im not as experienced with that MU - in any way Maverick isnt that much of a problem with 6 SB-cards : 3 Perish 3 Massacre - Stoneblade isnt too hard as well.
As told I kind of never lost, but this may be just because the people on Cockatrice tend to suck^^
When I played versus RUG Tempo TA was a lil stronger - but when I draw Volraths Stronghold I wasnt able to lose any more^^
Greetings
Playing against dredge is tough... I would not bother too much about g1... it can't be won consistantly. If you are lucky you can force his enabler and waste his land. .. still need some early creatures too finish it up in time.
The postboard tactic depends on your hate. In BUG i play 2 surgical, 2 extirpate, 4 snapcaster to reuse extraction and 4 deed (for the tokens). An early goyf is very good versus dredge, so you can start to kill them while slowing them down.
My general advise versus LEDless dredge.
- obviously counter the enablers if possible to keep them stuck (do not keep counters for dread return... at that point it is usually already too late)
- start beating down asap!
- In general extirpate effects should be used on their nacromoebas and ichorids... Depending on the situation if it is too late you also have to go for bridges/cabal therapy...
To use an extirpate effect on an early dredger only makes sense if you have some pressure AND another extirpate for the second dredger to ruin them before they get something going... but keep in mind they can also breakthrough or use other effects to draw and discard their hole hand including bridges/ichorids without a single dredge.
- Do not think 1 Relic/Crypt wins you the game. You need some other disruption and pressure to. Also it is all about the timing to crack it late enough to do some serious damage without giving them too much value out of dredging which you cannot handle....
Currently playing: Elves
I suggest you look into Dark-Thresh decks as they use Nimble Mongoose and Dark Confidants instead of Tombstalkers.
Anyone tried running Misdirection on sideboard? I've been considering whether to run them or not.
Seems kinda fun to try that out at the very least especially since swerving STP/PtE or Hymn seems pretty awesome. Any one else know other uses for this card and what MU it might be good for?
I haven't posted in a while, but figured I'd share my list I played this weekend at a GPT in Pittsburgh (@Mr. Nice Guy's in Oakmont for those in the area). I went undefeated in the Swiss, but lost in the first round in the top 8 vs. Reanimator (who then went on to win the whole thing).
20 Lands (8 fetch, 2 bayou, 2 trop, 4 underground, 4 waste)
4 Goyf
3 Tombstalker
3 V. Clique
4 FoW
4 Bstorm
4 Ponder
4 Stifle
4 Hymn
2 Liliana otV
2 Dismember
2 GftT
1 Sylvan Library
3 Maelstrom Pulse
SB:
4 Hydroblast (!)
2 Jace TMS
2 Thrun, the last troll
1 Massacre
1 Darkblast
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Life from the Loam
2 Perish
I correctly assumed that there would be a lot of Maverick, UW Stoneblade, and a smattering of Burn and my card choices reflect that. I played Hydroblast over Spell Pierce because I (incorrectly) assumed there would be some Goblin Players -- Pierce is probably just a better choice. Maelstrom Pulse is what this deck needs to consistently beat Jace/Elspeth/Batterskull, and Clique is amazing when people are trying to jam Stoneforge. However, I only faced one of those decks in the Swiss (Burn) and went 2-0 against it thanks to some lucky hands (game 1: double hymn, followed by Goyf and Clique beatdown, game 2: timely Hydroblasts for his PoPs and Goyf and Stalker beatdown).
I cut Daze entirely for two reasons: 1) people in my metagame aren't terrible and don't walk into it, so once they see the first Stifle/Wasteland they play around a card I don't even have and 2) the card isn't very good against Maverick/Stoneblade anyways because they quickly ramp into a lot of mana. I still kept Stifle because it is needed to slow down opposing plays and is a useful utility card. It was also instrumental in beating Rich Shay piloting Hive Mind in the Swiss.
I did 2-0 vs. Dredge, but that was mostly due to terrible luck on his part with mulliganing to 5 game 1 and not finding any action when he did finally get his deck running in game 2.
I took the 'Dredge gamble' by not playing any graveyard hate, and unfortunately it did not pay off since I ended up getting stomped by Reanimator. I think that in a large tournament, playing some amount of hate is necessary because otherwise this deck has very few ways to interact with that strategy. My SB was probably over-compensating for my expected DTB and should have been more balanced.
Going into Indianapolis, I am not sure which direction I want to go with this deck. The way I see it, there are three valid options:
A) Delver -- max out on Daze and Stifle, focus entirely on winning the early game
B) Clique -- surprisingly good in the current meta, and in this deck I feel is often more efficient/effective than Snapcaster
C) Snapcaster -- lends more late game power, but often sits in your hand looking dumb.
Option A can be incredibly powerful assuming everything goes as planned, but Delver can become quickly underwhelming and doesn't seem to fit in as smoothly as it does in RUG.
Option B is good assuming you face a lot of control and combo decks. However, Clique isn't too hot against aggro or opposing tempo decks which can make up a significant portion of the metagame in a large tournament. I know there is a lot of debate about whether Clique is even that good anymore, but it has been pretty good for me in testing by providing both a clock and disruption.
Option C seems fine, with Snapcaster taking the slot of Predicts in older lists as a source of long term card advantage. However, it is clunky and often 'win more' rather than just 'win'.
In any case, having BUG move off the radar as a DTB seems like a good thing for those of us who like casting Hymn to Tourach, because decks will become more focused on beating other strategies. But even Hymn to Tourach isn't quite the sacred cow it once was -- I could see a list dropping it in favor of Thoughtseize to be more immediately aggressive.
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