[Discussion] Most broken Commander?

[socialite]

Karn, Silver Golem is actually pretty powerful depending on how you build it. I haven't had much issue competing with builds of "top tier" generals.

Here is my most recent build.

[Offler]

I want to ask, no one plays Meloku the clouded mirror? Card itself is quite highly rated.

Also Memnarch is quite broken general in a good blue/brown deck. I play him from time to time.

Ertai, the corrupted is rated by players in similar way as Zur, no one play those two wizards.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think no one plays Ertai because Sharuum and Zur are just better.

The big thing that makes some generals Tier One and other generals not is whether they're combo pieces. Sharuum is part of a number of infinite combos, Zur voltrons himself up to kill quickly, Mimeoplasm getting Skittles plus any 6+ power guy ends games quickly, Azami draws tons of cards and can be a combo piece with Mind Over Matter, and so on. Ertai just doesn't kill people fast enough or do enough on his own to be good.

[kombatkiwi]

I think no one plays Ertai because Sharuum and Zur are just better.

The big thing that makes some generals Tier One and other generals not is whether they're combo pieces. Sharuum is part of a number of infinite combos, Zur voltrons himself up to kill quickly, Mimeoplasm getting Skittles plus any 6+ power guy ends games quickly, Azami draws tons of cards and can be a combo piece with Mind Over Matter, and so on. Ertai just doesn't kill people fast enough or do enough on his own to be good.

This is the kind of thing (ertai is good, no he isnt) that i meant in my last post
Everybody has different experience based on their own friends/playgroup so its often hard to reach a unanimous conclusion.

[Offler]

Well, some people here play reanimators. Combo is within the deck and has nothing to do with the general. The deck is 5 colored so i suggested to remove few colors.

The current general of that reanimator is Child of alara. The deck itself has an ability to destroy everything on table but is vulnerable to sorceries and instants. So I suggested Ertai, the corrupted as an alternative. Still has ability to sacrifice creatures but provides different approach to the controlling the game.

I understand Zur and the deck which can be build up around him. Its pretty dangerous to let him attack.

also Ashling the pilgrim. Have seen deck with him and many many mountains. I cant decide whether the deck was broken, or just stupid :D

[Admiral_Arzar]

Oona, Queen of the Fae
Sharuum the Hegemon
Azami, Lady of Scrolls
The Mimeoplasm
Arcum Dagsson
Some five-color general with Hermit Druid combo.

A step below are:

Jhoira of the Ghitu
Memnarch (he's pretty much mono-colored Oona, Queen of the Fae)
Pretty much any x general.

Another step below we have:
Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind
Zur the Enchanter
Pretty much any x general
Pretty much any general

Your meta sounds very similar to how mine was, back when we played EDH (everyone's playing Warmahordes now). I would argue that Zur is actually top-tier (he's better than Dagsson and probably Azami, and tends to be hindered by Zur players being bad more than anything else). Once our Zur player learned the all-important "always fetch Necro first" lesson, we realized how good Zur actually is.

[Gocho]

I saw many Edric.deck at french tournaments. Anybody likes him?

[Aggro_zombies]

Well, some people here play reanimators. Combo is within the deck and has nothing to do with the general. The deck is 5 colored so i suggested to remove few colors.

The current general of that reanimator is Child of alara. The deck itself has an ability to destroy everything on table but is vulnerable to sorceries and instants. So I suggested Ertai, the corrupted as an alternative. Still has ability to sacrifice creatures but provides different approach to the controlling the game.

I understand Zur and the deck which can be build up around him. Its pretty dangerous to let him attack.

also Ashling the pilgrim. Have seen deck with him and many many mountains. I cant decide whether the deck was broken, or just stupid :D

If he's running Necrotic Ooze, he should have red. Ooze + Morselhoarder + Devoted Druid + Shivan Hellkite is an instant win.

[Sims]

I saw many Edric.deck at french tournaments. Anybody likes him?

Edric tends to be a favorite of the french banned lists. It's pretty powerful and has a lot of things that hinder it removed from the french format. This is one of the reasons I disdain the french list. When your tournaments and the online metagame start to become warped by 1 general and two counters for that generals playstyle get banned in the most recent list update.... I kind of lose faith in their councils ability to judge the situation fairly.

[apistat_commander]

Edric tends to be a favorite of the french banned lists. It's pretty powerful and has a lot of things that hinder it removed from the french format. This is one of the reasons I disdain the french list. When your tournaments and the online metagame start to become warped by 1 general and two counters for that generals playstyle get banned in the most recent list update.... I kind of lose faith in their councils ability to judge the situation fairly.

Edric is also relevant in the French meta because they play 1v1. In multiplayer he doesn't do a whole lot because he is simply shut down by a removal spell or two.

The top Tier generals are probably Zur, Sharuum, and Arcum. I only include Zur if they are building him as a combo general. If they are doing anything other than Attack -> Necropotence they are doing it wrong. 5c Hermit Druid is viable in 1v1 but it is too easy to disrupt for a (competitive) multiplayer setting. Oona might be top tier, but I just don't see a reason not to add a third color to get more depth. There just isn't enough non-basic hate to punish you for playing wonky manabases in Commander. It also doesn't help that 2 of the 3 top tier generals rely heavily on artifact mana.

I have had quite a bit of success playing BUG Goodstuff/control because you can often just grind players out FTW. Control is viable in multiplayer it just isn't as explosive as combo. Control trades raw power for long game resilience (a choice that seems to make sense given the length of multiplayer games). In a 4-player group of 1 control vs. 3 tuned, top tier combo, yes a combo deck is likely the right choice. However that table isn't likely to happen very often. If a control player can throw enough road blocks in the way of one combo deck you can usually stick around for long enough to lock the game out. Plus it has the benefit of being a passive strategy. You aren't presenting threats early on, so you fly under the radar and draw little hate. Table politics play a crucial role in any multiplayer setting. Yes, sometimes Sharuum or Arcum will get a god hand and go off on turn 2 or 3, but drawing hate from 2 or 3 other players can slow them down enough for the control player to establish dominance. I don't remember where I read the quote, but the gist was essentially that in a multiplayer setting the 3rd person to present a threat is usually going to win. Control is a great way to put yourself in that position.

I disagree that The Mimeoplasm is a stronger general than Damia. I have played the deck for quite a while and tried both generals. In a competitive meta he simply doesn't have enough targets in the yard and the cards you draw off of Damia are far more relevant than having a beater on the field. Yes, he can one-shot people but then you are playing things like Blighted Agent or Skithiryx in your deck and that is just shitty.

I don't think any BUG variant is going to be top Tier because Esper uses artifacts so much better. When two of the best cards in the format are Mana Crypt and Sol Ring, playing an artifact deck seems like a great place to be. BUG also has access to far less impressive combos. Hermit Druid is a really appealing idea, but if you want a fast combo deck why not play one where the general is an active part of your combo.

[Kuma]

Your meta sounds very similar to how mine was, back when we played EDH (everyone's playing Warmahordes now). I would argue that Zur is actually top-tier (he's better than Dagsson and probably Azami, and tends to be hindered by Zur players being bad more than anything else). Once our Zur player learned the all-important "always fetch Necro first" lesson, we realized how good Zur actually is.

I dunno. We've had two Zur the Enchanter decks played by decent players, and neither has had a ton of success. The problem hasn't been the players searching the wrong enchantment, it's been getting the opportunity to attack at all. The deck plays out the same every game, making it easy to save your disruption. Killing Zur even once usually slows the deck down enough to where it can't win.

It's been a while since anyone has tried Zur, so I could be wrong. I've played Kaalia of the Vast, the most similar general to Zur in how it plays out, and I have all the same problems. If somehow I manage to swing with Kaalia on turn three or four and cast an Armageddon/Ravages of War, etc. the next turn without being disrupted in any way, I win. Hasn't happened often.

5c Hermit Druid is viable in 1v1 but it is too easy to disrupt for a (competitive) multiplayer setting.

It depends on how many people you have in multiplayer. I'm sure five-color Hermit Druid could handle two or maybe three opponents just fine.

Oona might be top tier, but I just don't see a reason not to add a third color to get more depth.

There are no three color generals that work as a combo piece better than Oona, Queen of the Fae. Oona turns infinite mana combos into instant win combos. I'll have to post my Oona list sometime. It's bonkers.

In a 4-player group of 1 control vs. 3 tuned, top tier combo, yes a combo deck is likely the right choice.

I've found that you need one control deck for every combo player, or else you're better off playing combo. I've tuned my Riku of Two Reflections list to where it can handle two top-tier artifact decks, but it doesn't do it often enough to where I'm better off playing it than my Oona, Queen of the Fae or The Mimeoplasm list.

I don't remember where I read the quote, but the gist was essentially that in a multiplayer setting the 3rd person to present a threat is usually going to win. Control is a great way to put yourself in that position.

It wasn't here, was it?

[apistat_commander]

It depends on how many people you have in multiplayer. I'm sure five-color Hermit Druid could handle two or maybe three opponents just fine.

It really hinges on whether or not your opponents know what you are doing. If they know what you are up to, Hermit Druid won't live to untap or your Dread Return will get countered. The great thing about Sharuum is that she recurs your combo pieces and can be recast. Arcum can tutor for protection. If your Hermit Druid eats a swords you are left with your far less impressive Plan B (Cephalid Illusionist, Scion chaining dragons, or beatdown with Mimeo). It isn't a bad deck by any stretch of the imagination and it will certainly tear up most casual decks. However, it sacrifices a lot of resiliency and long game strength for explosive power.

There are no three color generals that work as a combo piece better than Oona, Queen of the Fae. Oona turns infinite mana combos into instant win combos. I'll have to post my Oona list sometime. It's bonkers.

I can see Oona being strong as a win condition in a U/B control shell. If you want pure combo potential though, I think Esper is easily the strongest color combination to be in.

It wasn't here, was it?

Yep, that's the one. I think that is a perfect explanation of why Control is really good in EDH. While the combo players are busy exploding out artifacts and tutoring for pieces, you get to durdle with Life from the Loam, Top, and Dark Confidant to build up enough cards/mana to control the game.

[Amon Amarth]

Karn, Silver Golem is actually pretty powerful depending on how you build it. I haven't had much issue competing with builds of "top tier" generals.

Here is my most recent build.

Actually that was the deck that really got me into EDH. I recently acquired a Shop and Tabernacle to finish it up. It has some of the most explosive starts but it requires good mulligan decisions, sorta like Shop decks in Vintage. How has Karn fared in your playgroup?

[socialite]

Actually that was the deck that really got me into EDH. I recently acquired a Shop and Tabernacle to finish it up. It has some of the most explosive starts but it requires good mulligan decisions, sorta like Shop decks in Vintage. How has Karn fared in your playgroup?

I'm glad - I hear that a lot.

Karn does what Karn does. Won a game a few days ago against Rafiq of the Many by Copper Gnoming Possessed Portal into play to blank his Time Warp.

He was like "I can't believe you just did that to me".

[Offler]

If he's running Necrotic Ooze, he should have red. Ooze + Morselhoarder + Devoted Druid + Shivan Hellkite is an instant win.

The deck has red. He uses Sneak Attack with big monsters. then cards like Altar of Dementia with reanimation/sacrifice infinite combo. Not bad at all but vulnerable to Torpor orb, Tormods crypt and now to Grafdiggers cage.

Five color with a lot of nonbasics (old duals) also cost a fortune and can be beaten with Back to basics or Ruination and any common land destruction.

Focusing on three colors with proper general will remove few weaknesses of his deck. But of course - his deck is most red and black. with Ertai the corrupted it will be completely different deck...

[Lemuria]

Noone mentioned Godo, Bandit Warlord?

That shit is devastating.

[Elbeano]

Noone mentioned Godo, Bandit Warlord?

That shit is devastating.

Turn 3 bashing for 10 infect with Grafted Exoskeleton is rather idiotic. I've been playing Cook's list (though slightly under-powered as I lack Mana Crypt and some of the other pricier cards), and do that fairly consistently to someone on the table. Its bad enough that I don't even like sitting down with Godo if i know that no one else's deck is even close to that power. Though some of the players would rather sit across from Godo than my Arcum.

Meta around here is split between cut throat players and the players who just have fun with awkward crap. The 3 big decks that come to mind are Zur, Sharuum, Maga (yeah, really), and Mimeoplasm - which appears to be the standard

Curiously, as Google isn't turning up anything useful, what exactly is 5C Hermit Druid? Reanimation spell + Ooze? General even matter in that case?

[phonics]

I'm glad - I hear that a lot.

Karn does what Karn does. Won a game a few days ago against Rafiq of the Many by Copper Gnoming Possessed Portal into play to blank his Time Warp.

He was like "I can't believe you just did that to me".

Yeah Karn is pretty good, I havent made one cause I dont have a lot of the mana base. Almost all tier 1 generals are u/x with some exceptions (iike godo)

[socialite]

Curiously, as Google isn't turning up anything useful, what exactly is 5C Hermit Druid? Reanimation spell + Ooze? General even matter in that case?

They typically play Scion of the Ur-Dragon as it allows for a few contingency plans. In all honesty, the lists are pretty good but best compared to a glass cannon. It works really well the first time not so much afterwards when people understand the combos - granted this is entirely dependent on whether the opponents are playing random jank or not.


Godo is pretty boss.

[kombatkiwi]

They typically play Scion of the Ur-Dragon as it allows for a few contingency plans. In all honesty, the lists are pretty good but best compared to a glass cannon. It works really well the first time not so much afterwards when people understand the combos - granted this is entirely dependent on whether the opponents are playing random jank or not.


Godo is pretty boss.

Id rather play 3C as probably UGB just because it's a bit more consistent
Then you can be mimeoplasm and have a bit of contingency plan there too