Unknown meta and deck choices

[chags]

Zoo will burn your creatures no matter what you do...make them worth a burn spell!

Which is exactly why you don't run many creatures and run more burn instead like Z suggested.

[Mr. Safety]

Point well made

[Borealis]

Figure of Destiny gives you something to do in the lategame, similar to Grim Lavamancer. When you get one early, sure you gotta pay a total of 2 mana to get it up to decent clock, and yes they usually eat a burn spell pretty quick (as do the Wizards). But if it goes unanswered and you suddenly have nothing left to do with your mana (like, after turn 3/4), then you can make a huge fatty at instant speed. It's also a better late game topdeck than a Goblin Guide, for the same reasons.

When you start topdecking with this deck, your options are:

1) Draw a burn spell
2) Flashback Bump in the Night
3) Activate Grim Lavamancer
4) Level up Figure of Destiny

The more reach you have, the better off you are in any situation. Also, letting Figure eat a Bolt on turn 1 so you can land a 'Mancer, Bob, or Guide is also great.

[Zalren]

Just an update. The plan was to test my deck against my friends' decks, which they will play in the PTQ as well. Unfortunately no one was ready with their Modern decks because the PTQ is not until the end of the month. So I played against their Legacy decks (we normally play Legacy). After using my original decklist, I changed my deck to this:

Land - 20
4 x Arid Mesa
4 x Scalding Tarn
2 x Marsh Flats
3 x Blood Crypt
4 x Dragonskull Summit
2 x Mountain
1 x Swamp

Creatures - 12
4 x Dark Confidant
4 x Goblin Guide
4 x Grim Lavamancer

Spells - 28
4 x Bump in the Night
4 x Incinerate
4 x Lava Spike
4 x Lightning Bolt
4 x Magma Jet
4 x Rift Bolt
4 x Shard Volley

Sideboard - 15
4 x Pyroclasm
3 x Rain of Gore
4 x Smash to Smithereens
4 x Mindbreak Trap

Turn 1 Goblin Guide is too good not to run. Dark Confidant always won me the game if he stuck around. Grim Lavamancer is just so good at picking off opposing creatures and dealing the last bit of damage.

I decided to go with the full set of Shard Volley because nothing in my deck has CC > 2 (I count Rift Bolt as CC = 1 for casting purposes). So as long as I have two lands out, I have no problem sacrificing any extras for Shard Volley. I tried Seal of Fire in that slot but it felt underwhelming casting at sorcery speed for 2 damage when I could have instant speed for 3 damage.

I switched out Shattering Spree for Smash to Smithereens because destroying the artifact plus dealing 3 damage is better for my style of deck. I still like Pyroclasm because 2 damage kills most of the creatures in Modern, even if they fly, which Flamebreak will not touch. Everlasting Torment is still an option over Rain of Gore, just not sure if the damage prevention and wither is better than the loss of life.

This deck can definitely kill by turn 4, sometimes turn 3 if the opponent helps with fetches and shock lands, which I think will help me do well in the tournament. Any sort of lifegain sucks to play against and hopefully I will not run into Leyline of Sanctity, and since I don't know what the meta will be, I am guessing on the sideboard.

Will I win the PTQ? Most likely not but I think this deck will be fun to play for my first PTQ. Thanks all for the help and advice!

[hi-val]

Thing is, Rain of Gore won't ever trigger on an opponent unless they have to use it, with something like Soul Warden. They simply won't cast a Kitchen Finks if they don't have to. I suppose it's good against Serra Ascendant. Giving your Bolts Wither means that you can fight Goyfs. I suppose it's mostly just a bit of what you fear the most.

[Mr. Safety]

Thing is, Rain of Gore won't ever trigger on an opponent unless they have to use it, with something like Soul Warden. They simply won't cast a Kitchen Finks if they don't have to. I suppose it's good against Serra Ascendant. Giving your Bolts Wither means that you can fight Goyfs. I suppose it's mostly just a bit of what you fear the most.

You're confusing Rain of Gore with Everlasting Torment.

I've been testing a mono-red sligh deck on MWS...with some pretty good results.

Dudes = 19
4x Goblin Guide
4x Slith Firewalker
4x Keldon Marauders
4x Simian Spirit Guide
3x Grim Lavamancer

Spells = 22
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
4x Magma Jet
2x Burst Lightning
3x Searing Blaze
1x Mindstorm Crown

Lands = 18
4x Arid Mesa
4x Scalding Tarn
10x Mountain

Sideboard:
4x Smash to Smithereens
4x Volcanic Fallout
4x Spark Elemental
3x Ratchet Bomb


I have ridden a Firewalker to lots of damage in several games. Haste makes him good and SSG gets him down turn 1. Against combo decks, he leaves in favor of Spark Elemental so the damage output can be faster (and slightly cheaper.) Mindstorm Crown is my attempt at leaving Bob/alternative draw cards out of the mix. When I'm top-decking it acts like a free Phyrexian Arena. Playing only 18 lands means the risk of top-decking 2 in a row is minimized.

Side note: Searing Blaze is a freakin' house in some matchups. Pinging off mana-dorks and burning 3 to the dome at the same time is good tech. It is great against anything aggressive and actually provides card advantage in red. That's a strong reason to use it, basically the same reason Smash to Smithereens gets the nod over something like Shattering Spree.

Other cards on my list of playtest options:

Ashenmoor Gouger
Figure of Destiny
Reverberate
Slagstorm
Firespout
Vexing Shusher
Hellspark Elemental
Ball Lightning
Inner-Flame Acolyte
Immolating Souleater
Keldon Megaliths
Magus of the Moon
Blood Moon
Everlasting Torment
Blood Knight
Flame Slash
Flame Javelin
Gut Shot
Flame Jab

[chags]

I've been testing a mono-red sligh deck on MWS...with some pretty good results.

I have ridden a Firewalker to lots of damage in several games. Haste makes him good and SSG gets him down turn 1. Against combo decks, he leaves in favor of Spark Elemental so the damage output can be faster (and slightly cheaper.) Mindstorm Crown is my attempt at leaving Bob/alternative draw cards out of the mix. When I'm top-decking it acts like a free Phyrexian Arena. Playing only 18 lands means the risk of top-decking 2 in a row is minimized.

...or you could just play bob? Similarly to what was brought up in the merfolk thread I have to point out here that there is literally no reason to skip out on a splash. Bump in the night is sweet, who doesn't like more lava spikes? Bob is what keeps this deck going into the mid/late game...crown just seems janky. Searing blaze is fantastic and should get some slots in any burn deck running fetches. Burst lightning feels pretty weak, there must be better alternatives (bump in the night). I'm still not sold on the firewalkers, especially considering they get you to run simian spirit guide who seems mediocre as well. Sure in your opener he is wonderful but top decking one instead of a burn spell or threat is going to suck. Either magus or blood moon should make an appearance somewhere in the 75, that effect is far too good in this format to pass up...especially if you are on mono red.

As far as life gain concerns go don't forget Flames of the Bloodhand is a thing. Whether or not it is good enough I have no idea but just throwing another option out there.

[Mr. Safety]

This is a fundamentally different approach...I posted a black splashed sligh list a few posts above SPECIFICALLY for Bob/Bump in the Night. In retrospect, the Death's Shadow inclusion was bad, but that doesn't make Bob/Bump bad. Regardless, I feel that Slith Firewalker and Searing Blaze are reasons to stay in mono-red.

Would you play a creature that does this?

Red Dervish
2/2

Whenever Red Dervish deals damage to an opponent, put a +1/+1 counter on it.


Slith Firewalker is basically this:

Slith Firewalker
1/1

Haste

Whenever Slith Firewalker deals damage to an oppnent, put a +1/+1 counter on it.

Firewalker gets in for a ping when he comes out, making himself a bear that at a minimum dealt one damage. He isn't only good with SSG either...he's just fine turn 2 after a turn 1 Rift Bolt to clear blockers (mostly Vault Skirge, which needs to be dealt with ASAP in affinity) and he's fine on turn 3 after Bolt-ing a blocker to get him through. In most games that I've played Firewalker (about 10) he has gotten to 4/4, and in some 5/5 or more. Aggro decks have a hard time keeping up with Searing Blaze and Bolts, all the while you're dinging for 2-3 a turn with a growing creature threat.

Burst Lightning is a cheap creature removal that can be a late-game 4-damage hit when you kick it. I felt it was better than something like Incinerate. Forked Bolt is another option, especially in a meta full of mid-range decks that rely on turn 1 mana dorks (Birds, Nobles, Llanowars)

[chags]

This is a fundamentally different approach...I posted a black splashed sligh list a few posts above SPECIFICALLY for Bob/Bump in the Night. In retrospect, the Death's Shadow inclusion was bad, but that doesn't make Bob/Bump bad. Regardless, I feel that Slith Firewalker and Searing Blaze are reasons to stay in mono-red.

Would you play a creature that does this?

Red Dervish
2/2

Whenever Red Dervish deals damage to an opponent, put a +1/+1 counter on it.


Slith Firewalker is basically this:

Slith Firewalker
1/1

Haste

Whenever Slith Firewalker deals damage to an oppnent, put a +1/+1 counter on it.

Firewalker gets in for a ping when he comes out, making himself a bear that at a minimum dealt one damage. He isn't only good with SSG either...he's just fine turn 2 after a turn 1 Rift Bolt to clear blockers (mostly Vault Skirge, which needs to be dealt with ASAP in affinity) and he's fine on turn 3 after Bolt-ing a blocker to get him through. In most games that I've played Firewalker (about 10) he has gotten to 4/4, and in some 5/5 or more. Aggro decks have a hard time keeping up with Searing Blaze and Bolts, all the while you're dinging for 2-3 a turn with a growing creature threat.

Burst Lightning is a cheap creature removal that can be a late-game 4-damage hit when you kick it. I felt it was better than something like Incinerate. Forked Bolt is another option, especially in a meta full of mid-range decks that rely on turn 1 mana dorks (Birds, Nobles, Llanowars)

No I wouldn't play that theoretical card or firewalker in my burn deck. A 2/2 for 2 that maybe gets bigger if they don't have blockers is not what a burn decks wants, maybe an aggro deck but not a burn deck. You can absolutely play blaze in the same deck as a black splash...blood crypt, blackcleave, dragonskull all make double red perfectly plausible. If by fundamentally different you mean you are playing a strictly worse version of the deck then I agree, maybe some real testing instead of using mws all the time would give you some real insight into how these decks work. Clogging up these threads with sub par lists that have not seen any real testing is not helpful if you haven't realized.

[Mr. Safety]

The fundamental difference is this:

Sligh = burn blockers early so your cheap threats can deal damage, finish with burn

Burn = only use creatures if risk is minimal, use as much direct damage and don't interact in the combat zone if you don't have to.

That's all I meant...and I don't appreciate your comments. This is an open forum. If you feel Slith Firewalker is a bad choice, say so. Don't resort to personal attacks. I am certainly not 'clogging up this thread'...it gets hardly any hits anyways. It's not like there are five other members trying to discuss options while I noob-troll every other post. I'd appreciate some adult conversation rather than saying to me, essentially, 'test for real or GTFO'.

[chags]

The fundamental difference is this:

Sligh = burn blockers early so your cheap threats can deal damage, finish with burn

Burn = only use creatures if risk is minimal, use as much direct damage and don't interact in the combat zone if you don't have to.

That's all I meant...and I don't appreciate your comments. This is an open forum. If you feel Slith Firewalker is a bad choice, say so. Don't resort to personal attacks. I am certainly not 'clogging up this thread'...it gets hardly any hits anyways. It's not like there are five other members trying to discuss options while I noob-troll every other post. I'd appreciate some adult conversation rather than saying to me, essentially, 'test for real or GTFO'.

This is a COMPETATIVE forum, bring the janky nonsense to mtgsalvation. Your posts literally look like you search gather for anything legal in the color of whatever deck you are posting on. I'm not attacking you I'm requesting that you don't waste our time with casual cards you haven't tested. As far as adult conversation goes I've given you legitimate reasons why the majorityof what you post sucks, hence suggesting you stop being lazy and actually test so people don't have to waste time telling why these cards are bad. I'm not calling you a troll but not testing and just advocating random lists with no data is not actually constructive.

Basically it comes down to this: you wouldn't bring an untested deck to a tournament you're trying to win, nor would you give a completely untested list to a friend which wants win so don't toss them on here and tell people to play them without testing. I'm getting hung up on the testing thing because you don't state that your decks are untested, you claim to have tested and have data from games (which by the way 10 games hardly counts as testing) this is misleading to other players. What tier decks have you played against? How will the deck do against other real decks? No one cares if firewalker was good against a random Chandra firebrand deck, tell me how firewalket tested against jund or zoo.

Also in an attempt to keep things constructive, if you are just going to burn their dudes why not play stormkirk noble over firewalker? Is haste more relevant then management efficiency? Unless it is turn three or later in any situation where they have a blocker stormkirk is better, it also doesn't require playing ssg to turn 1 it.

[Mr. Safety]

Point taken...and I am testing it.

[chags]

Point taken...and I am testing it.

Well on that note if mws is your only option I could probably update mine (been putting it off) and play some of the bigger decks. If anyone else wants to coordinate testing online give a holler.

[Mr. Safety]

MWS isn't my only option, it's just the one that presents the most opportunities. I know it doesn't bring the quality of experience that true playtesting does but on the flip side it can give roughly 2-4 times the amount I would get from normal playtesting. That is all.

[Borealis]

Okay, in short I will say that I don't think slith fire walker and simian spirit guide are where you want to be in a fast red deck in modern right now. Each card in the deck needs to be worth at least a card or roughly three damage. Spirit guide does not fit that description and stromkirk noble is probably better than the firewalker by a few points.

I think Dark Confidant is the best card in burn right now. The best red decks should either be boros or bump burn.

[Mr. Safety]

Okay, in short I will say that I don't think slith fire walker and simian spirit guide are where you want to be in a fast red deck in modern right now. Each card in the deck needs to be worth at least a card or roughly three damage. Spirit guide does not fit that description and stromkirk noble is probably better than the firewalker by a few points.

I think Dark Confidant is the best card in burn right now. The best red decks should either be boros or bump burn.

I agree with this. Boros is incredible for the simple fact that it runs Lightning Helix. That is the single best burn spell, and easily in the top 5 spells PERIOD, for modern. I think Boros is slightly better than Bump-Burn because of the lifegain from Helix. What Bump-Burn does is draw extra burn for cheap with Bobs and has 4 more Lava Spikes. It's good, for sure.

Slith Firewalker = pet card 100% discounted at this point. One card that I have been slightly intrigued with is Hellspark Elemental. Any thoughts on this?

[Borealis]

I wouldn't completely discount Slith Firewalker, but as a standalone card (which are the types of cards we really want to be playing in formats like Modern and Legacy), it's a bit weak. If you were to build a "Big Red" list in Modern though, with a shell something like this, it might be a different story:

4 Stromkirk Noble
4 Slith Firewalker
4 Markov Blademaster
3 Sphere of the Suns

4 Koth of the Hammer
1 Chandra, the Firebrand

4 Volt Charge
...Some other burn

That's certainly a doubtful competitor (seems more on the caliber of Standard), but Firewalker has more synergy with a build like that. Often enough in Modern, you're going to be relying on that two-drop to do some work in the late game, and a 1/1 haste just doesn't do enough after turn 3 or so.

Hellspark Elemental is another story entirely. It's a card that can be worth up to 6 damage (for 4 mana), and it's a recurring threat when you need it most. I think Keldon Marauders and Grim Lavamancer fight for the Hellspark Slot in a list like this one, which I suggested on the Sligh/Burn/RDW thread:

8 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Arid Mesa
2 Sulfurous Springs
2 Blood Crypt

4 Goblin Guide
3 Keldon Marauder
3 Figure of Destiny
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Dark Confidant

4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Bump in the Night
4 Shard Volley
3 Searing Blaze

But the short answer is yes, Hellspark Elemental is playable in RDW in Modern. Keldon Marauders is probably slightly preferable, as if they have a Goyf out you still net 2 damage and can hold up a blocker, whereas Hellspark doesn't do much except team up with a burn spell to remove their beasties. Grim Lavamancer is really too good not to run, so it's a bit of a tossup. If you don't like the Figures of Destiny, they could probably swap out for the Elementals, but I also think they are a better card overall.

Also, I do think Boros is slightly better, but BumpBurn is a close second. Playing BOB is the best part of the Black/Red version. I also agree that Lightning Helix is the best burn spell in the format, unless of course you are running 4CC Zoo (my pet deck), in which case, Tribal Flames on 5 is the best.

[Mr. Safety]

Ooooh...Domain Zoo? Nice...I know you said 4c, so I'm curious what you're splashing. Is it blue for Bant Charm or is it black for Bob?

Zoo w/blue seems really hot. Meddling Mage shuts down Twin from the sideboard, Geist of Saint Traft is aggressive enough to warrent inclusion, and Rhox War Monk is incredible at battling opposing aggro decks.

Black brings Bob...and not much else. You already have Path for the best removal, so it doesn't need black removal. Bob brings card advantage nicely...but I don't think it's worth the black splash (other than a dual land for Tribal Flames, as you mentioned.)

So long story short (too late!) what's your 4C Zoo look like?

[Borealis]

I've actually posted it recently over in the Zoo thread, but NO ONE has been there in ages. Everyone thinks the deck is Jank, which is fine by me, but it would be nice to discuss it somewhere, so here's the list I'm on currently:

Creatures (22)
4 Kird Ape
4 Steppe Lynx
2 Loam Lion
2 Qasali Pridemage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Knight of the Reliquary

Spells (16)
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Lightning Helix
4 Tribal Flames

Lands (22)
4 Arid Mesa
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
1 Stomping Ground
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Blood Crypt
1 Temple Garden
1 Forest
1 Plains

Sideboard (still fine-tuning for PTQ this Saturday)
3 Combust
1 Damping Matrix
1 Torpor Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Mana Leak
2 Volcanic Fallout
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
3 Meddling Mage

So yeah, Dark Confidant is tempting, but I can't afford the damage, and I think Snapcaster is slightly better anyway. Tiago allows me to still play at instant speed a lot of the time, and he offers amazing midgame reach with all the Spells in the maindeck. It's too easy to lose a Bob to a typical removal spell and get no value, but Tiago is "almost" always going to provide immediate value. Also, my mana base already does me enough damage.

I slid in 2 maindeck Pridemages, because A) They are really good and B) I didn't want to have to sideboard too much enchantment/artifact hate. As it is counting the maindeck QP's, I have 6-8 cards against Affinity, 7-9 cards against Twin, and maindeck outs to Blood Moon (a card I generally can't worry too much about during sideboarded games anyway). Which leaves the Volcanic Fallouts for all aggro matchups, Mana Leaks as a catch-all (considering Thoughtseize here...), and the Elspeth as a trump in certain cases. It's possible Elspeth could just be a Kitchen Finks, but I think she is more versatile. I had Ajani Vengeant in that slot to fight Boros and Jund, but he's a bit too fragile, and Kitchen Finks isn't all that great as a 1-of. Rhox War Monk is another option, but again, you don't get value if you walk it right into a Terminate.

Meddling Mage! That's the slot I was trying to finalize actually! I had Thalia, Rule of Law, Ethersworn Canonist, Mindbreak Trap/Negate, and a whole host of other ideas in that slot trying to figure out how to fight Storm without losing value in other matchups. Meddling Mage is absolutely the card I was looking for. Ironically I just traded for 1 last night, and didn't even think of it's application in my deck. Mage on Grapeshot (with Volcanic Fallout for backup), Mage on Chord of Calling (or B-pod), Mage on Cranial Plating or Etched Champion even, there's so many uses for that card that it's totally worth the slot as a 3-of. I'll just have to play it like a shark and read their mind every time. It's part of the reason I'm tempted to run Thoughtseize in place of the Mana Leaks, but I'm not sure I want to do that to the Mana Base, it's already stretched pretty damn thin.

Anyway, that's the 4CC Domain Zoo as it stands right now. We'll see how it does at the PTQ this Saturday.

[Mr. Safety]

Good luck!

I see the blue is mostly for Snapcaster...no love for Bant Charm? I think 2 maindeck Pridegmages is smart considering the amount of Affinity you will likely face. Pridemage is one of those cards that is a broad enough hate option...but also brings combat bonuses. This makes him a maindeck choice rather than a sideboard one.

I see you already have Meddling Mages in the sideboard...and I'm lovin' those Mana Leaks, too.

One question for you: is Lynx worth the slots? I would almost rather have 4 Loam Lions and put the spare 2 slots to use being Char, maindeck Elspeth, or 2 more Pridemages.