[Deck] Dredge

[jares]

If Cage doesn't see play, the correct hate is 0 Ancient Grudge, 0 Nature's Claim and some number of Wispmare.

I'd like to suggest that we avoid making claims without providing sound reasoning for these statements. These claims might be right, for all we know, but throwing statements like these around without backing it up not only infuriates others (refer to the previous posts), but also does not add value to the discussion.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

One more thing to note: I've noticed a lot of Dredge lists falling farther and farther south in the number of dredgers being played. I think that's a critical deck-building error that needs to be addressed to people looking to optimize their lists. I'm even finding that eleven at a bare-bones minimum is simply just too little under most circumstances, which his why I've upped the count in my list currently back up to twelve - at a maximum of Trolls, Imps, and Thugs. Surgical Extraction hitting any one of these three creates a dire circumstance where we have to bank on the other eight (or less) dredgers to keep the deck's firepower relevant. If we run a full set of each, we can maximize the probability of not only chaining our dredges, but keeping a steady and healthy line of slow-dredging in the form of Golgari Thug - which is severely underrated right now in most builds. Not only is he a body to fill the role of a Dread Return or Therapy, he also exiles to Ichorid, he attacks and chumps, puts Narcomoeba's back on top of your library, and keeps a steady flow of dredging possible where lost or in-hand Imps and Trolls become increasingly problematic.

In my experience, I've just been noticing situations where - especially in the second and third games - dredging is incredibly important because of cards like Surgical Extraction and other hate people bring in against us to slow us down. We also need and require that ability to slow-dredge where situations call for it, and not be drawing cards off the top of our decks in the situations where it's optimal to dredge anyways. Casting a Breakthrough with an LED out or Looting is fine, but if you're running tight on dredgers, you're not getting value out of the spells you're casting, which is why we're stalling out more and more.

It just seems counterproductive to fill a Dredge deck with clutter when we should, in fact, be playing a solid suite of dredgers to make things happen. I just think that at least in my experience we've been taking things incredibly too light in the games where we can still blow open the game on turns one and two without having to always slow-dredge and take out some explosiveness in the deck. It'll add a bit of consistency, but I think the very core of LED-based Dredge now really wants to be able to explode in the match-ups where it can, and not stall out and give the opponent more time to setup an Extraction and flash it back. Purge/Purify is fine in that respect, but it still requires an investment.

Same here. I've gone up to 12 Dredgers for the same reasons, and won't probably go back to 11 any time soon. For those that are interested in the math, going from 11 to 12 Dredgers increases the probability of having at least 1 Dredger in the opening hand by 3.18%. As a generalization, each additional Dredger increases the probability of drawing one in the opening hand by roughly 3%.

At the end of the day, Dredge wins by Dredging - we might as well maximize that as often as we can .

Cheers,
jares

[HokusSchmokus]

This page shows the most recent successful Dredge lists:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/search

They all play DR.


EDIT: I guess link doesn't work. While on site hit Search (button) --> Format:Legacy --> Dredge
That should give the list.

I know this. Pre-Looting I ran 1 Dread Return main. Post Looting I don't anymore, because my testing has proven it not needed for me. For me is the important part in this, I'm fine with others playing DR and this doesn't make a list worse. I just hate that card and I am sick of losing because of Dredging into it rather than some useful stuff, but as I said, others might have other experiances.
Heck I don't even play one in the board anymore, so what? If you feel more comfortable with Dread Returns, than by all means, play it. This wasn't meant to say "if you run DR, you fail".

Edit: Also, we did not yet see a succesful Looting list in a big tournament(at least I did not). So we don't even know what is good and what not. Anything that has proven succesful with LEDless is not completly true for LED Dredge.

[Matt]

Here's my outline:

MAIN DECK

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
2 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Sun Titan
Creatures [24]

4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
2 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Spells [24]

4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
Lands [12]

SIDEBOARD
1 Angel of Despair
3 Chain of Vapor
4 Coffin Purge
1 Dread Return
3 Firestorm
2 Ichorid
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

Constructive criticism is encouraged. I have yet to actually purchase the deck, until I'm done fine tuning it for StarCityOpen at least.. I also have some basic questions for you guys, and feel free to redirect me if this is the wrong thread for beginner questions..

Question 1: If I play a draw spell, say Breakthrough, with a Golgari Grave-troll in the yard, if I dredge into another Golgari Grave-troll, can I dredge with the second troll still using Breakthrough's effect (drawing)? So basically, can you chain dredgers off of one draw spell?

Question 2: Can you play LED turn one. Wait till the beginning of your upkeep, before you draw, then pop LED and dredge, in an attempt to dredge into Faithless Looting?

[jares]

I've been playing LEDless Dredge pre-DKA with moderate success, and have been preparing a build post-DKA. After a few iterations, this is the configuration that I've become somewhat comfortable with:

LEDless Dredge
Main Deck

//Dredgers
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Effects
4x Bridge from Below
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy

//Enablers (Discard/Draw)
4x Putrid Imp
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting

//Lands
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
4x Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard

4x Faerie Macabre
3x Chain of Vapor
3x Nature's Claim
2x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Firestorm

Notes:

• The most notable deviation from the norm is the exclusion of Dread Return from the Main Deck (as some of you have also started doing). The last configuration I used pre-DKA had 1x Dread Return in the MD and one in the SB (a configuration that I've had moderate success with). I've been leaning more and more towards removing Dread Return from the Main Deck for a variety of reasons, and it seemed to me that the availability of Faithless Looting was the last reason I was looking for.
• This configuration runs 16 lands (12 of them being Gold Lands) to maximize the chances of drawing one in the opening hand. Running 4x Tarnished Citadel might come up as an issue from time to time, but I'd prefer taking damage rather than go through awkward timing issues with Undiscovered Paradise and Cephalid Coliseum. Maybe a 2-2 split would be best.
• I'm still unsure of whether I should be using Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void in the anti-GY slots. For now, Faerie Macabre gets the nod because of its flexibility.
• I used to have Woodfall Primus in the SB as a utility card, but the instances where I needed him have been dwindling. I'll probably have to reconsider this when game time comes.
• I would like to have at least 3x Firestorm in the SB, but I'm unsure of what to cut for it. Cutting the Chain of Vapor + Nature's Claim slots to 4 from 6 is an option.

Any additional input would be highly appreciated.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Question 1: If I play a draw spell, say Breakthrough, with a Golgari Grave-troll in the yard, if I dredge into another Golgari Grave-troll, can I dredge with the second troll still using Breakthrough's effect (drawing)? So basically, can you chain dredgers off of one draw spell?

Question 2: Can you play LED turn one. Wait till the beginning of your upkeep, before you draw, then pop LED and dredge, in an attempt to dredge into Faithless Looting?

For Question 1:

• Yes, you can. That is what is referred to as "Chain Dredging".

For Question 2:

• What you're trying to do here doesn't seem to be stated clearly, but the following points might help clarify things:
  
  • You can't play Faithless Looting during your upkeep because it's a Sorcery.
  • The Mana Pool is emptied and the end of every Phase (e.g. at the end of your Upkeep Phase).

I hope that helps

Cheers,
jares

[Matt]

Jares,

Very much so. Thank you for the quick reply. Yeah, I knew "question 2" was a bit of a stretch.. (wishful thinker). I really like your build also. Though my knowledge is limited, it looks extremely consistent. At the same time, I feel like it would lose to combo, though we generally do anyways, so that's probably irrelevant.. That and I only saw a handful of combo decks @ the most recent StarCityOpen.. Good stuff. What's your reasoning behind LED-less rather than with?

Thanks again,
Matt

[jares]

Jares,

Very much so. Thank you for the quick reply. Yeah, I knew "question 2" was a bit of a stretch.. (wishful thinker). I really like your build also. Though my knowledge is limited, it looks extremely consistent. At the same time, I feel like it would lose to combo, though we generally do anyways, so that's probably irrelevant.. That and I only saw a handful of combo decks @ the most recent StarCityOpen.. Good stuff. What's your reasoning behind LED-less rather than with?

Thanks again,
Matt

Regarding Question 2:

• I think that what you might be trying to do is this: pop LED during your Upkeep, then play the ability of Cephalid Coliseum. This is one of my favorite plays, especially whenever I'm low on Dredgers. It somewhat simulates playing a Breakthrough because the 4th draw becomes the Draw Phase.

Regarding my LEDless build:

• This build wins primarily via well-aimed Cabal Therapies (of course, the Bridges are a given), which will still be the case vs. Combo Decks. LED Builds have the luxury of increased speed via LED+Faithless Looting, which probably does increase its chances of winning vs. Combo. To compensate (to some degree), I've noticed that it's more common for me to hard-cast Cabal Therapy in this build because of the increased number of lands. This might not always be enough though, which is why I still pack 2x Dread Return (along with its targets) in the SB.
• The truth is that I've also been asking myself that . Going LEDless used to be a matter of favoring consistency over explosiveness. That doesn't seem to be the case nowadays. If I compare this build with the LED builds that have been going around, it seems to me that the slots that LED takes up are the slots for the extra lands - the main difference being that more lands equates to an increased probability of being able to hard-cast spells in your opening hand (which would also probably imply an increased probability of drawing into a "keepable" opening hand); LED, on the other hand, provides access to draw/discard options from the GY (besides also being able to activate Cephalid Coliseum, which lands are also able to do).

Good luck with building your deck.

Cheers,
jares

[feline]

I like ancient grudge & ray of revelation in my sideboard still, the fact that it can in most situations nail 2 for 1 card, or in other situations, be just played from the graveyard by dredging like mad, which you're already doing anyway, is awesome.

After those, I still have the firestorms in the side, as well as some 1 of's like Elesh norn, grand cenobite (awesome for the mirror match too lol) Iona, shield of emira (obvious reasons here >^,^<) and angel of despair (nailing any permanent from "the tabernacle at pendrell vale" to "hate bears" like gaddock teeg & friends, I've even nailed peacekeeper lol, as well as other dumb stuff like propaganda/ghostly prison or anything else that is a monkey wrench in your setup, if its more than 1 permanent stopping you, just cabal therapy the angel of despair and do it again!

Either way, my sideboard is somewhat subjective to my local metagames, as anyone elses, and is ever changing, at one point I had angel of despair in the main deck because of game 1 tabernacles & academy ruins -leading to- never ending engineered explosives, if the game went on long enough for that anyhow.

In any case, keep dredging and keep having fun, tomorrow is gonna be awesome, first type 1.5 tourney with new "faithless dredge" list.

[MadManMax]

Hello there,
Sorry if this was already discussed in this thread, but I couldn't find it on a quick spot: why do you want to get rid of Dread Return from the main deck? I know that you can make a critical mass of tokens without it, but that is ussualy not as fast as using a Dread Return. Led'less version already has slower start and lowered explosives compaired to Led version...

[Final Fortune]

Old LED Dredge and new LED Dredge aren't comparable, the difference is new LED Dredge's LEDs are more consistent and powerful than Old LED Dredge because Faithless Looting turns LED into a draw spell by itself, instead of requiring a draw spell or Cephalid Coliseum in your hand at the start of the game to be of any value. I'm not certain whether or not "racing combo" is a justification for LED tho', because if you're playing the DDD/Phantasmagorian style of Dredge you're routinely getting Duressed and Chant Walked and losing regardless. In a lot of ways it feels like Firestorm, a card that just murders the decks who otherwise have reasonable winning percentages vs. us game 1.

As an aside, Phantasmagorian is a pretty decent Dread Return target in the event that Golgari Grave-Troll gets hit by Surgical Extraction, he pretty much always trumps Tarmogoyf.

[HokusSchmokus]

Hello there,
Sorry if this was already discussed in this thread, but I couldn't find it on a quick spot: why do you want to get rid of Dread Return from the main deck? I know that you can make a critical mass of tokens without it, but that is ussualy not as fast as using a Dread Return. Led'less version already has slower start and lowered explosives compaired to Led version...

Hi!
To be fair, it's only me and a few others that want to cut DR.
The thing is that we feel that you don't NEED DR game 1. You don't lose even a turn if you cut it(well,sometimes you do, but I'm fine with that). Also it allows us to run the maximum of every other (better) card, so I would argue that without DR the consistency improves.

[Digital Devil]

angel of despair (nailing gaddock teeg)

It's hard to kill Gaddock Teeg with Angel.

[Michael Keller]

I think another glaring weakness post-board especially with LED builds is the fact that a well-timed Surgical Extraction on Bridge from Below can be even more catastrophic than believed. Without a full set of Ichorids or even Dread Returns, you're really leaning on your Bridges to keep your engine going, which is actually not good. You want to be able to stabilize in the event your Bridges become exiled, and it doesn't seem like minimizing our recursive threats and removing a powerful token generator/reanimation spell like Dread Return from the main seems any good.

If you have no way of generating tokens and are playing with a minimal subset of Ichorids, you're really not doing anything aggressive. Sure, you're drawing cards and dredging, but without any way of bringing something relevant into play or having a dense, recursive threat base, I just see the draw spells as fluff to cover up what is in my opinion a crucial weakness in the deck's design plan.

[joemauer]

It's hard to kill Gaddock Teeg with Angel.

Maybe he has show and tell tech in his deck?

[Izor]

Edit: Also, we did not yet see a succesful Looting list in a big tournament(at least I did not). So we don't even know what is good and what not. Anything that has proven succesful with LEDless is not completly true for LED Dredge.

You're right. The only few tournament expressions actually were from you and the other Germans in this forum. Still, one thing I got from those tournament reports is that a singleton DR might actually be more than worth it. I think it was K1W1, who seems to have lost several games where some sort of Dread Returning could have saved him.


I'm absolutely with you in that we should try to minimize our DRs main deck in order to be as consistent as possible. I just have the impression that the one DR is actually needed in order to be consistent. It's your game winner whenever your Therapies hide in the bottom X cards. You really want your dudes to die, you know. Your not ginna win the game with 3 1/1 Flyers. 9 2/2 Zombies in their place would do the job.

What do you think?

[HokusSchmokus]

You're right. The only few tournament expressions actually were from you and the other Germans in this forum. Still, one thing I got from those tournament reports is that a singleton DR might actually be more than worth it. I think it was K1W1, who seems to have lost several games where some sort of Dread Returning could have saved him.


I'm absolutely with you in that we should try to minimize our DRs main deck in order to be as consistent as possible. I just have the impression that the one DR is actually needed in order to be consistent. It's your game winner whenever your Therapies hide in the bottom X cards. You really want your dudes to die, you know. Your not ginna win the game with 3 1/1 Flyers. 9 2/2 Zombies in their place would do the job.

What do you think?

K1w1 had 1 DR in his deck, though.
I don't know. Maybe 1 DR is worth it, but the main problem is what to cut for it. The only possible slot is 1 Ichorid imo, and I'm not convinced DR is better.

[Vandalize]

If you get hit by Surgical Extraction in game 1, I'd just cry, really. Don't miss the point, people. Every guy who's not playing with DR maindeck, is bringing them in in game 2 (not sure about HokusSchmokus). It's just adding another threat. But really, Ichorid + Bridge can nab game 1 by themselves.

And that's the whole point of removing DR main. And that has only worked for me in LED builds, which can Dredge lots in the first few turns. And setup a kill on turn 2 (or 3). Removing Dread Return from the 75 seems to be a mistake, because you're really cold on Surgical Extraction, unless you can consistently make Coffin Purge trickery.

In LEDless lists, the explosiveness from Dread Return is needed. Because we can only explode in turn 2 (via Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, or whatever). That means we'll setup our kill in turn 3 (or four). Dread Return helps to make sure that setup will be enough to do lethal.

[HokusSchmokus]

If you get hit by Surgical Extraction in game 1, I'd just cry, really. Don't miss the point, people. Every guy who's not playing with DR maindeck, is bringing them in in game 2 (not sure about HokusSchmokus). It's just adding another threat. But really, Ichorid + Bridge can nab game 1 by themselves.

And that's the whole point of removing DR main. And that has only worked for me in LED builds, which can Dredge lots in the first few turns. And setup a kill on turn 2 (or 3). Removing Dread Return from the 75 seems to be a mistake, because you're really cold on Surgical Extraction, unless you can consistently make Coffin Purge trickery.

In LEDless lists, the explosiveness from Dread Return is needed. Because we can only explode in turn 2 (via Breakthrough, Cephalid Coliseum, or whatever). That means we'll setup our kill in turn 3 (or four). Dread Return helps to make sure that setup will be enough to do lethal.

Actually I think DR was a weak spot in the main deck in LEDless lists too, and a big factor I didn't make day 2 at GP Amsterdam was that I played DR main imo.
But basicly you have it right. It's just dead weight main, perfectly fine in the board, sure. I'm still not seeing myself playing it, I like my board how it is WAY too much to mess it up.
Edit: If out opponents finally settle on a set hate that we can expect (read: if they play cage or not) I can see myself adding DR to the board, though.

[TheShaun]

Hello Dredgers. I'd been looking at decklists and was wondering if you have had to deal with an opponent playing Chalice of the Void on you with X=1, and if so, how much of a pain has it been? I'm not a Dredge player, but have played against it many times. Whenever I've played a Chalice deck, I can never make up my mind as to whether it would be a good play or not. What have your interactions been with the card?