So what you're saying is that there is a correct card to put in a deck and every other card is the wrong one?Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Yes, essentially. In any given tournament there is one configuration that gives you the best possible chance of winning (keeping in mind the eccentricities of the pilot,) and running anything else is a mistake.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
90% of Grave Titan reads: "gg." People tend to concede to Grave Titan. Hermit Druid is okay, but what about when they have a 2/2 and a 3/3? Or any number of x/2 creatures? Then they'll just block and block and block, and you're Hermit Druid did basically nothing. Two 2/2's for six mana>four 1/1's for ten mana (echo...they'll inevitably wait since they have StP). This is assuming they have StP. If they don't, Grave Titan is just better in 99% of situations.
Deranged Hermit is awful. I'm sorry to say that because I have as fond memories of the card as anyone, but it was borderline when the power level on creatures was way below where it is now.
If you want something that doesn't get StP'd effectively to GSZ for that's big and splashy, stick to Thrun or maybe Grave-Shell scarab or Gigapede. Paying eleven mana to get a few Grizzly Bears in the best case scenario where they have no way to deal with a 1/1 is terrible.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I am personally much more afraid of Batterskull than Swords to Plowshares out of UW Blade. And none of the creatures listed, including Hermit Druid, fight it profitably.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
This is true, however it is completely irrelevant because we will never, NEVER know what that configuration is. Even the deck that got first out of hundreds might have had an even more optimized build that would have led to an easier win. So dont fool yourself into thinking you can know the absolutes. All we can do is strive for that optimal configuration, and we will do that in different ways (GSZ, wish, etc).
You claim your just opening up debate as the Greeks and Romans have done before us, but the whole point of debate, which is great btw, is for parties to present their ideas argue for validity so that a common ground can be reached. Not to stubbornly present things you claim as absolutes without even acknowledging others ideas.
Deranged hermit is awesome, very few decks run removal that can hit multiple targets. Assume you force them to bolt/stps your hermit, 4 1/1s will beat an elsepth or jace. Or chump block a goyf (while some swing) till you find removal. Its sad really, how such a "bad" card will win so many games for you. He is green and he makes 10 power for 5*2 mana that doesn't all go away if he gets removed. If they made a better card that does the hermits job, I would use it. But no card I have seen fills his role quite as well.
Note: I'm not saying hes better than grave titan, far from it, but the fact that the hermit can be gotten with GSZ makes him amazing in decks using GSZ. If your using wish, grave titan is probably all you need. but idk I haven't tried the wish list yet, but sounds interesting.
Oh I totally agree, but they have one of those, and 4 swords + 4 snappys + Paths in the side. We have pridemage (or wickerbough elder for me in B/G), pulses and deeds all MD to deal with BSkull. Pithing needles or kgrips in the SB can help too (as well as deal with walkers and stuff).
One thing that is REALLY strong about this archtype is it can deal with just about any threats we could imagine, but I believe our creatures need to be ones that are really hard for other decks in the meta to deal with (which is why I play stuff like thrun, garruk or hermit druid).
Why don't you play Troll Ascetic along with Thrun? I know Thrun is strictly better, but Troll costs 1 less (for the matchups your Veterans will get plowed more than often).
Any progress in the Valakut version of this deck? Seems like a nice tech, and Valakut was well known in Standard and Extended to be hell of a finisher (it's not a surprise they banned it in modern).
Brewed a Valakut list, it seemd nice in the few testing I did. (3-1 vs Stoneblade, 2-2 vs RUG Tempo, 1-2 vs Dredge, 5-0 against GW Maverick).
4 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Forest
3 Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle
3 Mountain
2 Swamp
1 Taiga
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Veteran Explorer
1 Primeval Titan
1 Eternal Witness
1 Viridian Emissary
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Burning Wish
4 Prismatic Omen
3 Diabolic Intent
3 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Scapeshift
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Maelstrom Pulse
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 1 Shattering Spree
SB: 1 Firespout
SB: 1 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Duress
SB: 1 Green Sun's Zenith
SB: 1 Scapeshift
SB: 1 Innocent Blood
Any comments or suggestions? They'll be heavily appreciated.
Last edited by Vandalize; 02-15-2012 at 11:00 PM.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Can anyone elaborate on the current trend of bashing Ooze maindeck and being dissatisfied with drawing it?
The only matchups in the entire metagame I actively don't want to draw ooze is vs. Sneak and Show, Hive Mind, Storm Combo (especially non-Ill gotten gains), and elves before a deed.
Off the top of my and and some quick scanning (I'm sure I missed a few decks) of deck lists he has legitimate utility against every other deck in the format.
I agree. Hermit is a fine card as is but the Echo makes is kinda meh. I love to put 5 guys into play from 1 card but having to pay for them again next turn (an have the hermit removed/destroyed afterwards) is just not cutting it for me. Most of the time I just drop Hermit defensively or to get rid of some pesky Planeswalker (when I don't have a Pulse in hand)
I just haven't found another card that I would rather have in that slot. Sometimes you just need the extra bodies Hermit provides.
I agree with IBA that there is an optimal list for a given meta. However, the meta does change quite a lot so there will always be some variance in the optimal list(s). I think that there are more "core" packages in this deck than some want to believe. This thread is indeed infested with pet decks and suggestions. For instance, I believe that any Birthing Pod version should be thrown out the window... The same goes for lists hellbent on abusing Recurring Nightmare high CMC creatures.
Tower is a very debatable slot to say the least. Another dual or basic would probably be consistently better. I only play it because I do get the Volrath/Tower/Witness combo from time to time against hardcore control decks. It is comparable to playing Riptide Laboratory alongside Snapcaster Mage, the drawback is acceptable and the potential is much greater. At this point, it is more a matter of consistency (1 land) vs. potential (card interactions).
I have given up on Percy a couple of weeks ago when I realized that Abyssal Persecutor is to Nic Fit what Tarmogoyf is to Maverick: vanilla. We can play it with virtually no drawback, but as awesome as it sounds, a 6/6, flying, trample creature for 4 mana isn't that good in a counterspell-free control deck.
Deranged Hermit is awesome. I believe that he is leagues better than Titan for one very simple reason: you have 5 copies in your deck at all times, and only 1 of them is 5CMC. He has been my main win condition in most of the games I have played. In a meta governed by cheap targeted removal, getting 5 creatures out of 1 card is game-breaking.
As far as the arguments against him go, they are pretty much bogus. Facing a 3/3 and a 2/2? Well, I want to know how you got in a situation where your opponent has 2 creatures, you have at least 6 mana open and your best play is a GSZ, and that you elect to fetch Hermit instead of:
-Thrun, to trump both;
-Witness to get removal back, or even;
-Ooze since everything above 2/2 in this format is pretty much a Goyf or a KotR
Hermit is echo? It doesn't matter when he wins you the game even if your opponent is holding removal or draws into it. Besides, how important is a tempo drop at that stage in the game?
I agree that finks is complete trash in the mainboard. It isn't even that great of a card in the sideboard either, except against Pox and Zoo. Saying that Finks is good because you play Arena isn't valid. Unless you are consistently left with 1-2 points of life at the end of a match where you resolved an Arena, you haven't used those extra life points.
I have found Hymns to be dissapointing lately. I feel like they are only good against Combo, and even there, targeted discard would be better. Against control decks, I don't really have anything to push through to take advantage of them, and again, targeted discard would probably be more effective. I am drifting away from them for now despite having advocated them so much, and have added 4 Planeswalkers instead for a total of 6.
Also, I have noticed that a few lists played 1 Birds of Paradise, and often did so instead of the 4th explorer. I think it is a good idea for a couple of reasons:
1) 2 Explorers suck
2) Bird + Explorer play alongside
3) GSZ Bird instead of Explorer with no Therapy when desperate for mana is much better
4) Adds any color
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
I got my BUG control ass beaten a couple of times on MWS recently which got me interested in this deck.
My questions / concerns.
I saw some different lists online, but none splashing blue. I once played on MWS against something like Nic Fit I saw having access to brainstorm, snapcaster and jace. Does anyone know about such a build and strength/weaknesses.
Is the stoneblade matchup not more problematic than described in the primer?
they can do a lot with additional basics... I feel that they will usually get ahead with Jace/Elspeth and it has to be some GSZ for hermit/witness/Thrun or Titan resolving to get back into the game somehow...
Would be nice to hear how this important matchups usually plays out...
How is the matchup versus burn, affinity and dredge which are common budget decks in my local meta?
Currently playing: Elves
Against Burn you're in for a lot of hurt unless you play 3-4 Finks between MD and SB and even then you have to get VERY lucky to win.
If you're not playing Finks you just lost the match.
Against Affinity it depends on how fast you manage to get an active Deed for 2 and wipe their board: if you can't in the first 2-3 turns it's usually too late.
Against Non-LED Dredge you can manage to win pre-board (since they're a lot slower than the LED versions) if you can quickly GSZ for an Ooze after a sacced Explorer, post SB it gets better the more cards you side in.
Against the LED versions you're basically starting with a loss, then you have to win the next two games.
Once upon a time, when Counterspell and Ancestral Recall were still living in the Garden, they ate the fruit from the Tree of Making Noobs Cry.
And it tasted good.
But now all blue cards must suffer for their sin.
Yeah Ooze is pretty much nuts 90% of the time. Maybe people are just running him out too early? I personally won't cast it until I have enough spare :G: to either dodge bolt, or gain a good chunk of life off StP. Even when it eats removal immediately, you should be getting some value. I guess you could counter with "then it's just an overcosted Healing Salve" or something equally ridiculous, but what Healing Salve has the potential to neutralize Snapcaster, Loam, KotR, keep you out of burn range, and become a huge beater?
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
If you can't do anything useful with it until you have a bunch of mana against most decks, that kind of proves the point.
I'm certainly not saying that Ooze is bad. Or that Finks is bad for that matter. These fall into the category of creatures that are mediocre on their own against most decks, sometimes amazing, and can fit into an aggro strategy fairly seamlessly with GSZ.
The problem is Nic Fit's low threat density and aggro support, which means that all too often your only beatdown is Scavenging Ooze or Finks or four 1/1 squirrels you paid eleven mana for which make you look ridiculous.
@Queerios: Arguing that you can win with Deranged Hermit when your opponent has nothing is arguing that you shouldn't play Deranged Hermit.
@TheArchitect: Between the hypothetical optimized decklist at any given point in space-time, and trundling along content with whatever 75 you throw together, there is a vast and wide gulf full of attempts to improve the deck and move it closer to a point where it might resemble the ideal 75 much more closely.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
What? Arguing for something is the same as arguing against it? There is a difference between an opponent with an empty board and cards in hand, and an opponent with an empty board and an empty hand. If your opponent has the latter, anything you play is good, otherwise, Hermit or Thrun will get you there. Hermit is overwhelming, and will not be dealt with by a single card unless it's a sweeper, and those are rather rare and/or usualy sided out or not sided in against us. Last time I played Nic Fit, it was pretty good at keeping the board clear, and my opponents usually draw 1 card per turn. Here is how it usually goes:
Step 1: Clear the board
Step 2: Play Hermit
Step 3: Watch your opponent try to deal with Hermit with multiple cards
Step 4: There is usually no step 4, but when there is, you are far better off than your opponent because they have went out of their way to deal with Hermit. Also, by that time, you probably have the means to repeat the process.
@Catmint
Burn is difficult to say the least, if it is a concern, prepare for it (read the previous pages).
Dredge is difficult as well, prepare a good sideboard for them just like any other deck.
Stoneblade isn't an easy matchup, and one we ought to improve (Planeswalkers!!). It is probably a 55/45 matchup in our favor. I encounter it very often and the matches are always tight.
As a sidenote, I don't think Pox is a bye. I keep losing to pox for some reason... They get more value out of an Explorer trigger than we do. I only manage to win when I land a token-generating Planeswalker or a Compost.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Incredibly rare and unlikely scenarios in which Deranged Hermit is shit:
- Your opponent has a Batterskull
- Your opponent has a Jitte
- Your opponent has a Grim Lavamancer and another creature
- Your opponent has a removal spell and a creature or God forbid an Elspeth.
- Your opponent has both lands and cards in their hand that are likely to be any of the above.
Like, would CRET Belcher be a scary deck if it always went off on turn 7 and had a storm count of 2 before casting Empty the Warrens?
No, right? And that's why Deranged Hermit is shit.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Look, if TES and beltcher could combo off on turn 7 and clear out your opponents hand while simultaneously talking care of all you opponents non-land permanents then following up with an ETW at 2 would be terrifying.
We need a card that seals the deal when we have the game under control. Most legacy decks have nothing that can deal with tokens. They will have to trade multiple cards to get rid the druid and his entourage. By the time they deal with them they have wasted multiple cards, you have drawn more, possibly even a way to Ewit back the druid and repeat the cycle.
Not only does he lock in the win, he is amazing if you're getting stomped and need some blockers till you find an answer.
If you're in the scenario where your opponent has no cards in hand and nothing on board, then anything is good. At least Lord of Extinction would end the game quicker, and Kodama of the North Tree wouldn't fold to an StP + a Mishra's Factory, and those aren't even particularly great choices.
No one needs a card that "deals" with 1/1 Squirrels, because they're fucking 1/1s. You know what card deals with 1/1 Squirrels? Grizzly Bears.
Or Hell, Chimney Imp.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Hermit Druid is actually not bad at trading with Planeswalkers. There are about a million other cards that do this better, but still.
Kodama of the North Tree is a good find; I remember that guy being a beating in Standard. You're only trading with a Germ token though.
Anyway, if you're paying 5 mana for a guy that barely competes with a fraction of a card (a single use of Batterskull), you're in trouble. The best creature abilities in Legacy are flying, then trample. We sort of get access to trample here, but none of the creatures you get are really better than a Tarmogoyf until you pay 6 mana.
Magic Level 3 Judge
Southern USA Regional Coordinator
@IBA: Kodama of the North tree is good, and I wouldnt call you crazy if you used him instead of hermit druid. Lord of extinction is a bad example though, they top deck removal and you lost control of the board. And I say 4 1/1s cause I assume they top deck removal so thats after they have already used a card, in reality he is usually collectively a 9/9.. If they traded one card for only killing half a creature he has already done his job.
Kodama is solid, probably better on the offence, but hermit druid can double chump block (while swinging) for 5 turns while you look for answers. Both lose to batterskull, so that is pretty irelivant.
@Anusien: If you can find a green creature with flying or trample that rarely can get beaten by single topdeck and/or provides card advantage on cast and can be used defensively if needed, let me know I will throw it in my deck ASAP cause I have been looking for something better than hermit druid at his job since I started playing this deck, but I have yet to see it.
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