[Deck] Dredge

[Fatal]

Tested list LED List:

//Discard outlet:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp

//Dredgers:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

//Recurring Creatures:
3 Ichorid
2 Bloodghast
4 Narcomoeba

//Support:
4 Bridge from Below
2 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
1 Sun Titan

//Draw spells:
4 Faithless Looting
3 Careful Study
1 Breakthrough

//Lands:
2 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Dakmor Salvage
3 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Gemstone Mine

SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 2 Chain of Vapor
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Memory’s Journey

Split between Ichorid and Bloodghast - Bloodghast has nice interaction with Sun Titan - you can recycle with any land then put it back - simply works good also with Undiscovered Paradise/Dakmor Salvage. Good way to suprise opponent and diversity of recurring creature helps vs Surgical Extraction.

11 Dredgers, 8 Drawing Spell, 4 LEDs.

I have good question for all those guys cutting Dread Return - why are you cutting your faster win con, you really want to die game one to Swords to Plowshares with some slow beaters ?

Dread Return is very powerful card - Its best sacrifice outlet and also gives an best creature from your gy which isn't too small.

I'm actually playing on 1 DR MD target - Sun Titan - it is just so good and uniwersal. It can bring back more guys if needed, mill 3 or 2 as you wish, or put back Stinkweed as a chumpbloker and this effect is continues..

About SB:
3 Firestorm - obv vs all with Ooze, hierarchs and other creatures..
4 Diffrent DR targets (probably should change one of them):
- Elesh - mirror, GW Maverick, Tribals - all creature decks
- Iona - vs combo its mostly only answer
- Ancestor's Chosen - mostly aggressive decks like Burn, Boros, U/r - probably to changing since Iona can stop all those crap.. probably for Woodfall Primus/Angel of Dis depends on meta.
- Flame-kin Zealot - when you have to go off really fast.

anti-hate cards:
2 Chain of Vapor - Universal answer
2 Nature's Claim - same as about but diffrent aproach
2 Ancient Grunge - crypts, cages, equipments, relics, spellbombs etc..
2 Memory's Journey - most vs exctractions - but also as hate vs reanimator - won me some games vs painter ;P

[jares]

I've been playing LEDless Dredge pre-DKA with moderate success, and have been preparing a build post-DKA. After a few iterations, this is the configuration that I've become somewhat comfortable with:

LEDless Dredge
Main Deck

//Dredgers
4x Golgari Grave-Troll
4x Stinkweed Imp
4x Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Effects
4x Bridge from Below
4x Ichorid
4x Narcomoeba
4x Cabal Therapy

//Enablers (Discard/Draw)
4x Putrid Imp
4x Breakthrough
4x Careful Study
4x Faithless Looting

//Lands
4x Gemstone Mine
4x City of Brass
4x Tarnished Citadel
4x Cephalid Coliseum

Sideboard

4x Faerie Macabre
3x Chain of Vapor
3x Nature's Claim
2x Dread Return
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
1x Flame-Kin Zealot
1x Firestorm

Notes:

• The most notable deviation from the norm is the exclusion of Dread Return from the Main Deck (as some of you have also started doing). The last configuration I used pre-DKA had 1x Dread Return in the MD and one in the SB (a configuration that I've had moderate success with). I've been leaning more and more towards removing Dread Return from the Main Deck for a variety of reasons, and it seemed to me that the availability of Faithless Looting was the last reason I was looking for.
• This configuration runs 16 lands (12 of them being Gold Lands) to maximize the chances of drawing one in the opening hand. Running 4x Tarnished Citadel might come up as an issue from time to time, but I'd prefer taking damage rather than go through awkward timing issues with Undiscovered Paradise and Cephalid Coliseum. Maybe a 2-2 split would be best.
• I'm still unsure of whether I should be using Faerie Macabre or Leyline of the Void in the anti-GY slots. For now, Faerie Macabre gets the nod because of its flexibility.
• I used to have Woodfall Primus in the SB as a utility card, but the instances where I needed him have been dwindling. I'll probably have to reconsider this when game time comes.
• I would like to have at least 3x Firestorm in the SB, but I'm unsure of what to cut for it. Cutting the Chain of Vapor + Nature's Claim slots to 4 from 6 is an option.

Any additional input would be highly appreciated.

Kind Regards,
jares

After much consideration, I'm still unsure of what I would want my SB to look like for a local tourney coming up in our area. This is how it looks like for now:

[4x] Faerie Macabre
[4x] Chain of Vapor
[3x] Firestorm
[2x] Dread Return
[1x] Iona, Shield of Emeria
[1x] Flame-Kin Zealot

Notes:

• Both Faerie Macabre and Chain of Vapor are there because of the added flexibility that they provide, but I'm still considering Leyline of the Void and Nature's Claim in those slots.
• I've been able to talk myself into going up to 3x Firestorm, and I hope that it pays off.

Any additional help with these considerations would be appreciated.

Kind Regards,
jares

[HokusSchmokus]

I have good question for all those guys cutting Dread Return - why are you cutting your faster win con, you really want to die game one to Swords to Plowshares with some slow beaters ?

I don't think this point makes sense. Actually, you make yourself more vulnurable if you run dedicated DR targets, imo.
Also, a gazillion zombies plus 3 Ichorids turn 2 is not my definition of "slow beaters".
Still I agree that Sun Titan is the best option as a target, exspecially in a Bloodghast build.
Actually, I'm tinkering on one, too.

[jares]

I have good question for all those guys cutting Dread Return - why are you cutting your faster win con, you really want to die game one to Swords to Plowshares with some slow beaters?

Dread Return is very powerful card - Its best sacrifice outlet and also gives an best creature from your gy which isn't too small.

To try and answer your inquiry, no, I don't really want to die game one to Swords to Plowshares, nor do I expect to. If you're implying that not running Dread Return in the main would cause you to lose game 1 because of Swords to Plowshares, then I suggest that you review your understanding of how the Dredge Archetype is designed - if not, then maybe a more meaningful line of questioning might be more helpful in clarifying what you're trying to understand with your inquiry.

I definitely agree that Dread Return is a very powerful card, which is why I currently wouldn't run a 75-card deck list without it.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Final Fortune]

Are you guys who are MDing Nether Shadow actually getting any use out of the card in match ups not running Islands?

[HokusSchmokus]

Are you guys who are MDing Nether Shadow actually getting any use out of the card in match ups not running Islands?

In short: no, none at all.

[Wereodile]

It's been a few years since I have Sleeved up this deck and I have a few questions regarding SB options.

I see some people using Purify the Grave and Coffin Purge is this more of a defensive piece against Surgical Extraction or is it used offensively? To me at least Memory's Journey seems like the superior option as it hits more cards for the same cost as Purify or Purge and works better as a two way option (offense/defense)

Last question why Nature's Claim over Ray of Revelation? Is it just to hit hate game 2 while on the draw? Ray at least allows you to not only draw into it but also flash it back if they draw into more hate and most boards I see also have Ancient Grudge which shores up the other half of Claim.

All answers are appreciated, the noob thanks you in advance!

[joemauer]

It's been a few years since I have Sleeved up this deck and I have a few questions regarding SB options.

I see some people using Purify the Grave and Coffin Purge is this more of a defensive piece against Surgical Extraction or is it used offensively? To me at least Memory's Journey seems like the superior option as it hits more cards for the same cost as Purify or Purge and works better as a two way option (offense/defense)

Last question why Nature's Claim over Ray of Revelation? Is it just to hit hate game 2 while on the draw? Ray at least allows you to not only draw into it but also flash it back if they draw into more hate and most boards I see also have Ancient Grudge which shores up the other half of Claim.

All answers are appreciated, the noob thanks you in advance!

I haven't been able to use coffin purge and the such to much success.

Nature's Claim is used over ray because it costs one mana and hits either enchantments or artifacts. Good for those people that like their enlighted tutor SB packages.

Also, you can't flashback ray if your opponent sticks a leyline of the void or wheel of sun and moon.

[ThomasDowd]

have you guys found: memory's journey, purify, coffin purge or street wraith to be the best counter measure to surgical? granted street wraith only allows you to save dredgers, so it is not as good at protecting but the fact that it has other uses (allows more dredging, feeds ichorid) is a factor to consider.


i personally wouldn't bother with chain, but that's because i feel the non enchantment, non artifact hate doesn't exist as rampantly so i think nature's claim is just better (it is dredge's swords to plowshares, more or less). sure you can use the chain to slow down a knight activation, but that only buys you about a turn, so i guess that argument is pretty valid but the rest of the time blowing up the piece (wheel or leyline) is better.

also where do you guys even want firestorm anymore? the creature matchups? merfolk? rug? all of those seem like places where you shouldn't even bother with the card and just grind them out.

[Que]

also where do you guys even want firestorm anymore? the creature matchups? merfolk? rug? all of those seem like places where you shouldn't even bother with the card and just grind them out.

For Maverick which is a real deck.

[NecroYawgmoth]

For Maverick which is a real deck.

THIS!

I tested more with my Manaless Land-build, and came to the conclusion that I wanted soem Drawspells, because I am not that reliable on the Sphinx-package anymore. I also wanted to play a card which fits the deck perfectly, so I chose Study & Looting over Breakthrough. It's important to dig for Antihate in g2 so this is also a +. And IMO Firestorm is still one of the best / trickiest cards in the deck, so I also don't wanted to ditch these... Which lead me to the following list:

//Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
3 Ichorid

//other stuff
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Firestorm
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

//Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 City of Brass

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Purify the Grave
SB: 2 Wax // Wane
SB: 2 Oxidize
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Sadistic Hypnotist
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus

Yeah, I know, blame me for Elesh mainboard. It's debatable, but I think she is too strong with these little Shadows, and does more often than not help in hopeless situations. I likt his list a lot. It has a lot of resiliance and still enough speed to still freak out and kill the opponent in 1 blow. The only thing I am missing are 2-3 Phantasmagorians because they are really nice with Shadows, but I can't see something to cut other then Elesh. Well... I only tested this deck in "casual" games with friends this week so I am most likely go to play that list in a tourney tomorrow and see how it plays out there.

[Michael Keller]

THIS!

I tested more with my Manaless Land-build, and came to the conclusion that I wanted soem Drawspells, because I am not that reliable on the Sphinx-package anymore. I also wanted to play a card which fits the deck perfectly, so I chose Study & Looting over Breakthrough. It's important to dig for Antihate in g2 so this is also a +. And IMO Firestorm is still one of the best / trickiest cards in the deck, so I also don't wanted to ditch these... Which lead me to the following list:

//Dredgers
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug

//Graveyard Goodies
4 Bridge from Below
4 Narcomoeba
4 Nether Shadow
3 Ichorid

//other stuff
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Firestorm
4 Street Wraith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Angel of Despair
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite

//Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Undiscovered Paradise
2 City of Brass

//Sideboard
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Purify the Grave
SB: 2 Wax // Wane
SB: 2 Oxidize
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Sadistic Hypnotist
SB: 1 Blightsteel Colossus

Yeah, I know, blame me for Elesh mainboard. It's debatable, but I think she is too strong with these little Shadows, and does more often than not help in hopeless situations. I likt his list a lot. It has a lot of resiliance and still enough speed to still freak out and kill the opponent in 1 blow. The only thing I am missing are 2-3 Phantasmagorians because they are really nice with Shadows, but I can't see something to cut other then Elesh. Well... I only tested this deck in "casual" games with friends this week so I am most likely go to play that list in a tourney tomorrow and see how it plays out there.

You might want to consider Ingot Chewer over Oxidize in the board. It can't be Spell Pierced and it gets you tokens off Bridge. Both are functionally identical at one mana. Something to look at.

[NecroYawgmoth]

You might want to consider Ingot Chewer over Oxidize in the board. It can't be Spell Pierced and it gets you tokens off Bridge. Both are functionally identical at one mana. Something to look at.

While this is true, I thought that I have 3 different outs against cage in that slot...

Ingot Chewer: Can Evoke and trigger Bridges, laughs at Spell Pierce, but is sorcery speed. The Golgari Thug plan is a nice trick, but I don't think that will happen very often.

Shattering Spree: Better with 2 lands, because copies needs to be countered, too. Sucks when you get wasted if you want to make set up copies and is sorcery speed also.

Oxidize: This is an Instant, and IMO this is huge. Upkeep triggering the Ichorids, response Oxidize the Cage, nice . End of opponents turn: Oxidize. I think Instant is a huge + instead of the Sorcery-variants.


In the end, there isn't a big difference between these 3 cuz they are all functional identical [like you said] , but I think Instantspeed is more important then Evoketrigger.

[jares]

In the end, there isn't a big difference between these 3 cuz they are all functional identical [like you said] , but I think Instantspeed is more important then Evoketrigger.

I believe that, based on what Dredge wants to achieve as an Archetype, being able to trigger Bridge from Below and evade a fairly common counterspell in Spell Pierce is much more important. Also, it may not have been pointed out that, because Ingot Chewer is a creature, it helps power-up the power-toughness of the Troll whenever reanimated, and more importantly, helps with getting Nether Shadow into play. Given that you're running a full set of Nether Shadows, it surprises me that this has not been considered, and that Oxidize is still regarded more highly over Ingot Chewer simply because it's an instant (noting that the scenarios that have been mentioned where "instant-speed" would be useful aren't really as relevant as one might expect).

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

i personally wouldn't bother with chain, but that's because i feel the non enchantment, non artifact hate doesn't exist as rampantly so i think nature's claim is just better (it is dredge's swords to plowshares, more or less). sure you can use the chain to slow down a knight activation, but that only buys you about a turn, so i guess that argument is pretty valid but the rest of the time blowing up the piece (wheel or leyline) is better.

I definitely agree that non-artifact, non-enchantment hate is uncommon in the current meta, but it's important to note that Chain of Vapor isn't really used only as anti-hate, as it's really there to be the versatile answer to everything else. Personally, my primary consideration for it whenever I construct my SB is whether or not I need additional answers to Reanimator, but that might just be me.

also where do you guys even want firestorm anymore? the creature matchups? merfolk? rug? all of those seem like places where you shouldn't even bother with the card and just grind them out.

In my experience, Firestorm shines best exactly in the scenario that you stated - the one where you expect to "grind them out". I guess that you've got the right idea then .

Cheers,
jares

[NecroYawgmoth]

I believe that, based on what Dredge wants to achieve as an Archetype, being able to trigger Bridge from Below and evade a fairly common counterspell in Spell Pierce is much more important. Also, it may not have been pointed out that, because Ingot Chewer is a creature, it helps power-up the power-toughness of the Troll whenever reanimated, and more importantly, helps with getting Nether Shadow into play. Given that you're running a full set of Nether Shadows, it surprises me that this has not been considered, and that Oxidize is still regarded more highly over Ingot Chewer simply because it's an instant (noting that the scenarios that have been mentioned where "instant-speed" would be useful aren't really as relevant as one might expect).

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

Well... I played with Chewers today, and it actually can be nice to DR them [Affinity]... I never thought about the interaction with Shadow, but this is a huge +.

Thanks for that.

[jares]

Well... I played with Chewers today, and it actually can be nice to DR them [Affinity]... I never thought about the interaction with Shadow, but this is a huge +.

Thanks for that.

Glad to have helped. I actually overlooked that it can also be a DR target in certain situations; it's also helpful that it's got a healthy body at 3/3.

Cheers,
jares

[Digital Devil]

Howdy fellas, what is the general consensus about Ray of Revelation? I'm playing 2 at the moment but most times it's only wasted space. My current sideboard is:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This covers most things I can think about, but is Ray of Revelation really necessary? Also, is 2x Dread Return enough to suffice the presence of a dedicated DR target?

P.S. - Just to give my feedback, I loathe Chain of Vapor but it's pretty nice to have against Maverick and Reanimator; and there is nothing as good as Ingot Chewer as Cage answer 5-6.

[Final Fortune]

Howdy fellas, what is the general consensus about Ray of Revelation? I'm playing 2 at the moment but most times it's only wasted space. My current sideboard is:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [RAV] Darkblast
SB: 2 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 2 [LRW] Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 [GP] Angel of Despair
----------------------------------------------------------------------

This covers most things I can think about, but is Ray of Revelation really necessary? Also, is 2x Dread Return enough to suffice the presence of a dedicated DR target?

P.S. - Just to give my feedback, I loathe Chain of Vapor but it's pretty nice to have against Maverick and Reanimator; and there is nothing as good as Ingot Chewer as Cage answer 5-6.

Ray of Revlation and Angel of Despair are effectively redundant in your SB, with Angel of Despair being superior because it targets Peacekeeper etc.

[dredgekid]

@Dr.Edge kid
I like your list. I'm actually playing the same main deck except of the nether shadows and -1 Golgari thug.
Instead i play four (4) Street wraiths. I came to the conclusion, to cut breakthrough is the thing we should do. The 8 studies should be enough. I just play the street wraith to have the chance to get them in my opening seven. The advantage with street wraith against breakthrough is, that you have a draw spell, that can be exiled for ichorids in the graveyard.
While i'm looking at your list, this could be nice with nether shadows.
If i play with shadows and +1 thug, i think i will play street wraith in the sideboard against surgical exctraction. ( Instead of playing Breakthrough in the board.

Did you already tested your list? If yes, how do you feel with lesser creatures in the grave to get back the shadows?

Then to the sideboard. How is Chain of Vapor a better choice instead of Nature's Claim?
I was already thinking about it, but i don't know what could be better.

Let's compare this two cards:

Nature's Claim:
+ Nature's claim can destroy your opponents hate directly.
- Costs green mana ( bad with coliseum )
+/- Your opponent gets 4 life ( This can be bad in some situation, but shouldn't be a big problem)

Chain of Vapor:
+ Nice against reanimator ( Bounce creatures like Elesh-Norn )
+/- Can also bounce hate, but if you don't have a therapy left, they will play it again ( except of leyline maybe )
- They can sacrifice a land to bounce you DR targets or creatures.
- blue mana ( can be cast with coliseum )

At any rate, i forgot some points! If you want, say me what, i will add it.
There are some advantages and disadvantages with this two cards.

But i think Chain of Vapor is the right answer, IMO. Because you should always have a therapy in your grave.
And the most important thing is, that you can cast it with every land you have.

Please tell me if i'm wrong with my opinion. I am open to any criticism or disagreement.

K1w1

I chose chain for two reasons, ease of casting and applicability.
Chain is a catch all and can hit all hate. While it doesn't happen a lot, I don't wanna lose to a random yixlid jailer coming down. Chain is the most versatile piece of hate, and it has pretty much not draw back because for the most part when you are casting it you have no nonland permanents.

As far as using SW over breakthrough in the board, I disagree. The cards are doing two different things. SW is fighting surgical extraction. Breakthrough is there so you can race combo (TES, AnT, Belcher, ect.) The main deck is already designed to be better against extraction by diversifying its threats. The deck needs to speed up to beat combo, so the breakthroughs are necessary in the board.