[Deck] GW/x Maverick

[Machahiko]

I would be more than pleased to hear what you want to add to the deck in place of Mother of Runes. Comparing MoR to Drudge skeletons is pretty low. Mother of Runes is a really good 1-drop for all what it does, it either takes a removal spell really early or later on forces your opponent to either sweep the board or use a few cards to get rid of your knight, and even then you can fight back with a scryb ranger if you're blessed enough to have it in your hand.

I don't mind removing mother of runes from the deck, but I'd really like to hear some good alternatives. I think a set of 4x Mother of Runes, 4x Noble Hierarch and 4x GSZ for dryad arbor is pretty damn good for always having a solid turn 1 play.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Where is there a law decreeing that this thread shall only contain discussion of GW and GWx Maverick decks containing Mother of Runes? I'll wait.

...

On a serious note: Welcome to innovation, people. Just because all of your lists run Mother doesn't mean it's necessarily the correct call. If no one is willing to push the envelope and say "In certain situations during testing I've found situation X to arise more often than I'd like, so lets try replacing card Y with a less situational card and see what happens.."

That's what Jack is doing, innovating and testing. He might be proven wrong in the end, or you guys in a few months might be playing decks sans Mother or Ranger... but if the person asking the question doesn't actually test and share their results, innovation can't occur and the entire point of this thread (and forum) becomes moot.

Agreed completely, over in the RUG thread people are saying it is insane to chose pierce vs. stifle because it changes to tempo of the deck. If you aren't willing to make changes and adjust to the flow of the metagame then why even post here. Why not simply copy last weeks winning list and run that for the next 6 months.

Players not willing to think outside the box and consider change are the same players who post unproven comments here all the time, the same players who wonder why they can't ever win the big one and the same players who beat up the locals over and over again to boost their ego in an attempt to hide the fact that they are to lazy to actually make innovations and change.

I'm curious, can someone name a deck where Mom and/or Ranger were relevant consistently prior to Maverick becoming a hit?

[Koby]

Mom is good in certain situations but in no way is she the best objective card in the deck. That still goes to Knight and Ooze is coming a close second. There were meta games in the past that running less than four Moms was also correct (Mental Misstep era, which the card replaced Mom's role in protecting Knight). I correctly reason in he wake after that increasing Mom to four to combat RUG Delver and UW Stone blade due to their removal in order to continue the protection suite.

Jack is correct in that the non-ramp 1/1's are pretty miserable when the deck is trying to go aggro. If there is a good way to protect them repeatedly other than Mom then I would like to know. Very rarely when I cast Mom did she resolve or stay alive. In those situations in which she did I usually won because my future Knights went unopposed.

Scrub ranger was good when Merfolk was around everywhere. Now Delver is everywhere, which still makes scrub ranger useful but not a trump.

@impin
Mother of runes is used extensively in Death and Taxes. It's used there for the same purpose: protect bombs.

[Asthereal]

To keep the mana curve of the deck intact, I tried Thoughtseize as a replacement for Mother of Runes (also a turn-1-play). It messes up the mana base a bit, but it does increase your chances against combo, and in most cases it's just a very strong card.
Black also allows us to include Dark Confidant, who can play the Sylvan Library-part but also carry swords, and Vindicate in the sideboard. I really liked the list I got out of that, but I haven't yet thoroughly tested it or tried it in a tournament.

The list I came out on (without Ranger, bacuse it loses a lot of value when Mom is gone):

1 Dryad Arbor
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Birds of Paradise
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Dark Confidant
2 Qasali Pridemage
1 Tarmogoyf
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Thrun, the Last Troll /24

4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Light and Shadow /15

3 Bayou
3 Savannah
1 Scrubland
1 Forest
1 Plains
1 Swamp
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Marsh Flats
1 Karakas
3 Wasteland /21

Side:
3 Vindicate
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Path to Exile
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Kitchen Finks
2 Entlightened Tutor
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 CoP: Red
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Phyrexian Metamorph /15

Not fully developed yet, as I said, but it gives an idea.

[ImpinAintEasy]

@impin
Mother of runes is used extensively in Death and Taxes. It's used there for the same purpose: protect bombs.

Yea, DNT was the only deck I could think of, but it wasn't exactly putting up stellar winning percentages either, or at least that I can recall and certaintly not putting up the performances that maverick is.

[Machahiko]

I'm curious, can someone name a deck where Mom and/or Ranger were relevant consistently prior to Maverick becoming a hit?

I'm curious, does this matter? Can you name a deck where Sword of the Meek was good before Thopter Foundry was printed? Can you name a deck where Grindstone was good before Painter's Servant was printed?

Stupid question which has nothing to do with this discussion.

Agreed completely, over in the RUG thread people are saying it is insane to chose pierce vs. stifle because it changes to tempo of the deck. If you aren't willing to make changes and adjust to the flow of the metagame then why even post here. Why not simply copy last weeks winning list and run that for the next 6 months.

Players not willing to think outside the box and consider change are the same players who post unproven comments here all the time, the same players who wonder why they can't ever win the big one and the same players who beat up the locals over and over again to boost their ego in an attempt to hide the fact that they are to lazy to actually make innovations and change.

I find it funny from time to time that people from all around the world come here and find out what to change in their deck in order to adjust to a certain metagame. There isn't such a thing as "mtgthesource.com-metagame". It might work for some people who attend SCG Opens, but most of the people, they have to make their own deck/sideboard in the end to gain an advantage against the known "metagame".

Mother of Runes is a good and steady choice because she supplements the other creatures in the deck in such a great way. I think that there isn't a card (or the card has not been found) that helps Maverick as much as Mother of Runes.

If Mother of Runes is just a drudge skeletons for you, you might want to try Kavu Predator or Tarmogoyf, they usually hit more than a mother of runes does.

[BlackStarDeceiver]

Another approach would be a Terrageddon-like deck, with Mox Diamonds, effectively jumping the 1 mana slot or MAYBE adding Veteran Explorer, but NicFit does this better.

http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/legacy/22119_Terrageddon.html

Just as an idea, i liked that list a lot when i tested it last year, still there is a lot of room for improvement/innovation.

[wcm8]

Decks adapt to deal with the metagame. Decks running Black have already discovered how to defeat Mother of Runes via playing non-damage based sweepers like Massacre, Virtue's Ruin, and Pernicious Deed. MoR can certainly be a trump against decks that use Red or White as their removal colors, but eventually those decks will also figure out ways to get around the card (Engineered Explosives and/or Wrath of God are already seeing play). While MoR is certainly a great card in certain matchups, I'm sure there will be a point in the not-too-distant future where its not worth the slot in Maverick.

[ImpinAintEasy]

I'm curious, does this matter? Can you name a deck where Sword of the Meek was good before Thopter Foundry was printed? Can you name a deck where Grindstone was good before Painter's Servant was printed?

Stupid question which has nothing to do with this discussion.



I find it funny from time to time that people from all around the world come here and find out what to change in their deck in order to adjust to a certain metagame. There isn't such a thing as "mtgthesource.com-metagame". It might work for some people who attend SCG Opens, but most of the people, they have to make their own deck/sideboard in the end to gain an advantage against the known "metagame".

Mother of Runes is a good and steady choice because she supplements the other creatures in the deck in such a great way. I think that there isn't a card (or the card has not been found) that helps Maverick as much as Mother of Runes.

If Mother of Runes is just a drudge skeletons for you, you might want to try Kavu Predator or Tarmogoyf, they usually hit more than a mother of runes does.

I like stupid questions, they lead to stupid responses. The question is valid in the fact that previously Mom was used in DNT to protect its' more important creatures, just like Mom is used in Maverick to protect its' most important creature. She is a utility creature here just like she was in DNT and to call her more important than Knight seems silly. Does she serve a role in the deck, sure, but she isn't the glue the holds the deck together like Knight is.

"Meta-games" are vastly different from place to place, agree completely, but often times threads try to portray the ultimate listing of 75 or the listing most reference too. If you are just copying 75 from the internet without taking into consideration your locals play 3-4 storm decks then you are in for a rude awakening. This is exactly my point, people need to think outside the box sometimes.

@ the Skeleton comment, I wasn't the one who made that reference, but I think comparing Mom to drudge is a little harsh as she is much better than that.

All I'm saying is people need to open up their minds a little and try to be innovative and stop being stuck on the same ole same ole. Just because Mom has been a great utility card for the past year or so, doesn't mean she will be the best selection going forward.

If you think Mom is a great card, I'm not mad at you. I think she is a great card too, but I think being dead set on specific ideas only furthers the boredom and lack of innovation of deck ideas that seems to wander around these forums.

[arcannys]

Ok since you like multiquote replies, here's one for you:

Yes, you attempted to summon up an argument, going at least somewhat beyond "LOL," and I rebutted it.

Where exactly did you rebut it? All you kept saying was that mom wasn't good because it's a drudge skeleton.

I notice that you're not running Lightning Greaves in your list. Can you explain that one to me?

I'm not sure if you're just trying to troll us or what, but i'll respond anyway. Greaves rlly? greaves is fucking terrible it makes you unable to equip your own equipment (insert smart comment about how to move greaves around, sure...), it doesnt advance your board state (this will horrify you since apparently you dont like moms that act like drudge skeletons and do nothing on the board), and it disables you own mom (oh right you dont run moms, ye greaves are great).

For that matter, others have advocated Sylvan Safekeeper as a one of since it's a Green Sun's Zenith target that fulfills a similar function to Mom. Yet you're not running that.

Sylvan safekeeper is certainly not a bad card but it's not nearly close to mom's power, It doesnt provide evasion to your other creature and its drawback is pretty huge.

That's to leave aside the question of why you're not running Quirion Ranger. If the effect of Scryb Ranger is so good, surely at least one should be a Ranger so you can get that power online a turn faster.

This is certainly makes me believe you're just throwing questions to the air just to dismiss my points of view.
Quirion ranger is MUCH worse than scryb. First of all scryb has flying which makes him a better equipment holder. The pro-blue and flash, tho, is what pushes it over the top.
The pro blue ability is insane, it makes it the best creature against jace, and the flash part is even more insane since you can set up good 2x1 situations with mother of runes and KotR. Quirion is just a 1/1 that doesnt fit the curve.

Or alternately, Maverick used to run Aether Vial. And for a long time people were pushing it. But people eventually dropped it because it wasn't worth the slot. And lots of people argued about how good Aether Vial was. And they're not objectively wrong. Aether Vial is a potentially really powerful card. Hell, it's been banned in enough formats. I'm sure lots of people flipped out when they saw people cutting Aether Vials because the deck couldn't do as many cute tricks as it could before.

Thats wrong.
Maverick still does play aether vial and wayfarer. Thats the reason why this thread is incorrecly named. Maverick is a different deck than GW zenith.
If you're gonna be a smartass, at least try to inform yourself before embarrassing yourself.

Now can you at least put the guns down for a sec, and try to agree with at least ONE of my points, instead of multiquoting my comments and inserting random nonsense to dismiss it?
I'd appreciate that.

[dsck]

Drudge Skeletons are pretty fucking bad, dude.

I dont understand this comparison. Drudge Skeleton doesnt protect your other creatures or let them through when theres stall on board. Moms ability doesnt use up any mana and it costs 1 to play.

You may not be aware of this but lots of decks in Legacy run 4 Wasteland.

By attacking manabase aggressively I meant Knight sitting on board growing while wastelocking your opponent (with Scryb Ranger the job is done fairly fast). If you have played with Maverick you have surely done this yourself multiple times and know what I mean. Provoking me with that response is silly and dodging the point.

But if Blade Control ran nothing but Wrath that might be sufficient. The problem is that they run 6 StPs post-board, which they can find with Brainstorm and multiply with Snapcasters and God forbid Riptide Lab. It's when you try to build up a defensive board against this including Moms etc.. that Wrath becomes an issue. By that point they can have easily recovered from a Wasteland.

Postboard Blade Control sides out counter magic for removal and Choke becomes a problem. Thrun and Scavenging Ooze are also fairly effective against Snapcaster Mage. There are just so many must answer creatures and Maverick doesnt have to overextend and play all of them into board. Once theres equipment on battlefield a fetch for Dryad Arbor does the job.

Mother of Runes is not core to the deck's strategies. I mean Blade Control ran Mental Misstep when it could, but we didn't stop calling it Mental Misstep when it took it out.

Or alternately, Maverick used to run Aether Vial. And for a long time people were pushing it. But people eventually dropped it because it wasn't worth the slot. And lots of people argued about how good Aether Vial was. And they're not objectively wrong. Aether Vial is a potentially really powerful card. Hell, it's been banned in enough formats. I'm sure lots of people flipped out when they saw people cutting Aether Vials because the deck couldn't do as many cute tricks as it could before.

I dont get your mental misstep point. Aether Vial was dropped because Zenith was printed (late game threat density is better than what Vial offers). I can foresee people running mom as long as spot removal is being played.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean I think it's a mistake to approach the deck with the mindset that you need 4 strictly protective spells, although if you're going to run anything in that slot Thoughtseize does sound pretty good since it protects your Knights from Deed, Wrath, countermagic and other discard, which Mom doesn't, as well as giving you an outside shot against combo. It might even provide sufficient reason to convince people to run Goyf again and thus up their win percentages. I mean if I had to do choose between Thoughtseize and Goyf in a deck or Mother of Runes and Scryb Ranger it wouldn't seem like much of a dilemma to me.

I had liked Mental Misstep in the deck for some of the same reasons, although it was just a much more powerful card all around.

If you want something to make Knight even more ridiculous I had much more positive results testing Lightning Greaves in the deck than I did Mom. It's also a lot less slot intensive with SFM.

Or you could just play more threats and card manipulation. Like my list runs 2x Elspeth and 2x Thrun and 2x Goyf and 4 library manipulation spells so that I can just go get another threat if they StP a Knight, I'm not stuck around trying to assemble a Voltron.

Also Jesus Christ would people stop being dishonest. I never said Mom was just a Drudge Skeleton; I said by herself she's just a Drudge Skeleton. Because people were making the laughable claim that she was useful by herself. To recap the fucking conversation:

Me: I mean the problem with Mom is it's really only good protecting your Knight from spot removal, and the power of disruption in Legacy makes relying on Voltron teams a bad idea.
People that won't be named: Mom is good by itself, because you can chump block stuff indefinitely.
Me: Yeah, Drudge Skeleton is fucking terrible.
People that won't be named: Mom isn't Drudge Skeleton, when you have other stuff on board she's really good*.


*Note: By other stuff we mean Knight

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

By attacking manabase aggressively I meant Knight sitting on board growing while wastelocking your opponent (with Scryb Ranger the job is done fairly fast). If you have played with Maverick you have surely done this yourself multiple times and know what I mean. Provoking me with that response is silly and dodging the point.

No, I haven't done this multiple times. I've never felt the need to Wasteland someone in a game more than twice, which is why I only run two. Instead of sitting around masturbating with Knight I would generally just rather go kill them.

And it's not dodging the point because if you have Knight active, you shouldn't be "aggressively attacking their mana base," you should be aggressively attacking them. Like the utility on Knight is awesome but it's primarily there to be a giant beat stick. Certainly by the time it's a 7/7 or bigger you should be swinging in, not derping around with multiple Wastelands.

Postboard Blade Control sides out counter magic for removal and Choke becomes a problem. Thrun and Scavenging Ooze are also fairly effective against Snapcaster Mage. There are just so many must answer creatures and Maverick doesnt have to overextend and play all of them into board. Once theres equipment on battlefield a fetch for Dryad Arbor does the job.

You know that they also run equipment and creatures and stuff like Jace right? I mean yes, you have a lot of things they have to deal with; the problem is that in the general configuration your gas, excluding land, is about half your deck, and in their configuration half their deck is also gas and the other half is shit that fuck I don't know does something to make gas less gassy, I didn't think this metaphor through.

On a card for card basis, in this matchup, Blade Control just generally has more relevant and quality and card advantage cards. It's a real problem.

I dont get your mental misstep point. Aether Vial was dropped because Zenith was printed (late game threat density is better than what Vial offers). I can foresee people running mom as long as spot removal is being played.

The deck didn't exist before GSZ as far as I'm aware, so that's not why it was dropped.

Spot removal is not the deck's only weakness, and running a card that tries to stop spot removal plans and does nothing else seems of questionable worth over the bevy of other good cards that could be run in the deck, even without going to a third color.

Especially given the meta. Mom isn't a particularly effective answer to Blade Control, especially post-board, and is ironically pointless against decks like Rug where your Knights are already undealable and really you'd just be better off running a couple Goyfs or something to have more big-assed creatures.

[Anusien]

If all Mother of Runes does is blank a single removal spell or block a single creature, if you just replace it with something that trades with a single removal spell or a single creature but also attacks, you're making an upgrade.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Where exactly did you rebut it? All you kept saying was that mom wasn't good because it's a drudge skeleton.

Previously. I'm not digging the post up for you, go look for it.

I'm not sure if you're just trying to troll us or what, but i'll respond anyway. Greaves rlly? greaves is fucking terrible

lulz

it makes you unable to equip your own equipment (insert smart comment about how to move greaves around, sure...), it doesnt advance your board state (this will horrify you since apparently you dont like moms that act like drudge skeletons and do nothing on the board), and it disables you own mom (oh right you dont run moms, ye greaves are great).

You don't need to use Mom because you have Lightning Greaves. Also wow, your arguments are that Lightning Greaves is bad if you don't have anything else in play. I'm staggered.

Sylvan safekeeper is certainly not a bad card

No, see, that's the joke, it is.

This is certainly makes me believe you're just throwing questions to the air just to dismiss my points of view.

No, I have already dismissed your point of view, I am throwing out rhetorical questions to show that your point of view is dismissable.

Quirion ranger is MUCH worse than scryb. First of all scryb has flying which makes him a better equipment holder.

This is why I run Birds over Noble Hierarch, personally.

I mean I'm kidding but that would actually make infinitely more sense than running a card whose disadvantage is costing twice as much instead of not having exalted.

The pro-blue and flash, tho, is what pushes it over the top.
The pro blue ability is insane, it makes it the best creature against jace

Man because can you imagine how annoying it would be if your opponent was using his Jace to bounce your Quirion Ranger every turn.

and the flash part is even more insane since you can set up good 2x1 situations with mother of runes and KotR. Quirion is just a 1/1 that doesnt fit the curve.

Flash is really important on a three mana sorcery-speed creature I heard. Slightly better than the synergy with GSZ and Bloodbraid Elf at least.

Thats wrong.
Maverick still does play aether vial and wayfarer. Thats the reason why this thread is incorrecly named. Maverick is a different deck than GW zenith.
If you're gonna be a smartass, at least try to inform yourself before embarrassing yourself.

I'm sorry, what was that argument you stated so eloquently before? Lots of laughs or something I dunno

There is no "GW Zenith" deck except possible in SCG archives before they called it Maverick along with everyone fucking else.

Now can you at least put the guns down for a sec, and try to agree with at least ONE of my points, instead of multiquoting my comments and inserting random nonsense to dismiss it?
I'd appreciate that.

Try being right about something and I'll see what I can do for you.

[kingtk3]

Hi to all,
I'm testing a GW build and I'm looking for some advices and explanations. I've attended a couple of small tournaments with the following list:

4 noble hierarch
3 mother of runes
3 stoneforge mystic
2 qasali pridemage
4 knight of the reliquary
1 gaddock teeg
1 scavenging ooze
1 scryb ranger
1 thrun, the last troll
1 terravore
1 eternal witness
2 aven mindcensor

1 sword of feast and famine
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull

4 green sun's zenith

4 swords to plowshares

2 sylvan library

1 elspeth, knight-errant

1 marsh flat
2 misty rainforest
4 windswept heath
1 plains
1 forest
1 gaea's cradle
1 karakas
1 tower of the magistrate
1 horizon canopy
1 dryad arbor
4 savannah
4 wasteland

SIDE
2 enlightened tutor
1 bojuka bog
1 tormod's crypt
1 wheel of sun and moon
1 sword of light and shadow
3 ethersworn canonist
2 choke
1 life from the loam
1 edric, spymaster of trest
2 path to exile

The deck was strong but I felt that it lacked of important treats, as I found myself quite often with a board of small utility creatures unable to deal reasonable damage if stripped of the equipments (which is not uncommon).

I decided to take a more aggressive route and I wanted more beaters to complement the Knights:

-2 aven mindcensor(they are annoyng versus almost any deck, and are the second best creature MD against combo, but they are not stellar)
-1 eternal witness
-1 sword of feast and famine
2 mirran crusader
1 birds of paradise
1 sword of fire and ice

Mirran crusader is an important presence on the board that can grow rapidily with exalted or equipments. Because of the crusader inherent protections and double strike, I switched to sword of fire and ice, and I added the birds to speed up the curve.
I playtested a bit and I found the crusader very good, but they easily die against any burn. Also, I found that sometimes the witness would have been useful for recurring a StP or a broken equipment.
If I were to take out the Crusader (as I'm planning to), what do you recommend me to play? I was thinking to add the second Thrun and the second Elspeth, adding Worship (as Majikal) to the side. Maybe terravore will leave too to avoid being too graveyard dependant.

@IBA: I'm curious about your Mother-less build, would you mind to share?

Thanks in advance for your comments.

[arcannys]

Bah, i give up. You see??
Of the last 3 comments you did multiquoting every pharagraph of 3 different people, you didn't agree with ANY of those quotes!! Thats statisticaly impossible...
This is just unbelieveable, your only job is to sistematicaly disagree with everything..
I only follow a couple of threads in this forum but seeing how many comments you have done with your account i feel terribly sorry for all the other users that have to deal with you...
Like, whats the matter with you? you sit all day infront of your computer activly dismissing ppls points with your idiotic points of view or what?
Im done with this crap, if someone wants to discuss serious matters i'll be glad to do so.

[bakofried]

If someone feels the points being made are wrong, then its fine to dispute them. Everyone on the Mother of Runes/Scryb Ranger side of the argument is using the same argument -> they're awesome when together or with other dudes. IBA's argument, roughly, is that in a metagame with a substantially higher amount of spot removal due to Snapcaster, along with the rebirth of mass removal ala Wrath of God or Pernicious Deed, that one's draws should be independently strong; which Mother of Runes, and Scryb Ranger, really aren't. Thus, he uses that space for Goyfs (strong independent threat) Libraries, Tops, Elspeths, very, very bomby cards.

[arcannys]

GW Zenith is not every deck that runs 4 KotR and 4 savannah.
GW zenith runs mother of runes, zeniths, scryb ranger, 4 wastelands and a very long etcetera that is the core of the deck. If you want to play a deck that doesnt fit this criteria, this forum is kind enough to provide a sub-forum for you, which is called "New and Developmental Decks".
And yes, its GW zenith, not GW maverick. Maverick is a diferent deck. I happen to know the creator of GW maverick and he would gladly tell you that this is not the deck he created.

[dsck]

The deck didn't exist before GSZ as far as I'm aware, so that's not why it was dropped.

The deck evolved from GW version of death and taxes, I believe.

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...4&iddeck=38958