[Deck] Death and Taxes

[Fry]

My current list is :

Main Board:
4x Flickerwisp
3x Leonin Arbiter
3x Mangara of Corondor
3x Mirran Crusader
4x Mother of Runes
2x Oblivion Ring
3x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x AEther Vial
1x Batterskull
2x Phyrexian Revoker
1x Sword of Feast and Famine
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Umezawa's Jitte
4x Karakas
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland
9x Plains

Side Board:
3x Ethersworn Cannonist
3x Jotun Grunt
1x Oblivion Ring
3x Runed Halo
2x Wing Shards
1x Manriki-Gusari
2x Phyrexian Revoker

A little while a go I took out the serra avangers for the Mirran Crusaders and a fourth flickerwisp partly because it gives me more reason to take vial to three counters and also because chances are you aren't going to be getting the vial turn one to get the avenger turn three anyways.
Also the fourth Flickerwisps allows more tricks with the Oblivion Ring shananegains and can flicker the Mangara after targeting something to exile.
I love the Main board Leonin Arbiters. Period. They only hurt my 3 stoneforges and they hurt all the fetches and Natural Orders and Green Sun's Zeniths all day long. I especially love vialing in an Arbiter in response to a fetch, can't get too much better than that.
I chose to play the Feast and Famine over Light and Shadow because the double activation of the discard and untapping of land can be devastating while on crusader with an active mystic in play. It allows the utilization of the mana during your main phase, then porting/wasting lands on the opponents turn.

If anyone disagrees with my choices feel free to CONSTRUCTIVELY criticize them, but give reasons as to why you would choose otherwise, and if asked why I play a certain number of a card or not at all, I will do what I can to explain on my next visit to the interwebbing world (currently at a local restaurant for the internet).

[timmycolossus]

@ Fry: If I may ask why only two revokers. Also how does the list play against rug maverick and uw stoneblade? Also are you going to jupiter on march 3rd?

[Fry]

I went to two revokers main so I could fit the 3rd Thalia in the main. I would rather go to 2 revoker than to 3 flickerwisps, I normally would rather have my vials up to three over two because of the mangara and now the crusaders with flickerwisp tricks and o-rings... fun times ^_^ the remaining two revokers are in the side though... Actually been thinking about putting in the fourth arbiter main because it messes with people so much.

I shall be there on the Third, most likely playing this deck since I plan on using it at the GP in Indianapolis the following weekend. Just ordered the three foil Thalia's I needed so now the only non-foils in the deck will be the Karakas. ^_^

[Oxmo39]

I like the Arbiter approach in your list and i will be interested to see your results at Jupiter

However, going down to 21 lands seems very low.
With the print of Thalia, i tried to go down to 22 to make space, but i was not happy with this change.
So i really wonder how does it work out for you in your testings ? Did you have any issues with the mana base ?
Not to mention you play O-Ring : that looks very bad with Thalia out. I would say the same for Batterskull since you went down to 3 Stoneforge mystics...

I've played a lot with the Arbiter MD, despite the dissynergy with mystics. You always want the arbiter to be out faster than mystic. Paying the 2 extra manas is a pain with 23 lands, i can't imagine how hard it should be with 21...

[Barbed Blightning]

@Fry: why don't you run the E-Tutor SB? it's always worked well for me.

Also, same concern as Oxmo: why play batterskull/o ring with only 3 sfm, 9 plains and 3 thalia?

[klaus]

With Thalia, I think we should reconsider Glowrider. The combination of taxing effects can be extremely powerful imo.
Here's a sample list of the top of my head:

3 Thalia
3 Glowrider
3 Mystic
3 Mangara
3 Flickerwisp
1 Grunt
4 Mother
3 Arbiter
2 Revoker
2 Relicwardner

3 Equipment
4 STP
4 Vial

22 Land

Let me know, what you think!

[AggroSteve]

actually i think you may have a point

either way my oblivion rings will be replaced with thalia as soon as i get a few of them, and really i like the idea of glowrider + thalia a lot, i might even try it, since the gameplan of most midrange and controll-decks is going to be devestated by it, even combo suffers a lot

the only creature i will never use in my list is arbiter, i really dislike him, and i do not even know why

either way i would try the following configuration first

4 thalia (even if its a legend, simply because she probably will get countered if the opponent knows the deck)
2-3 glowrider, to supplement thalia, and not more as thalia is way better

just have to check where my glowriders are^^

[colo]

I don't want to cross-post, so I'm just linking to my MTGSal-Posting about my recent D&T experiences here: http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showp...postcount=1330

I think the deck is as well-positioned in the metagame as ever. Good times. :)

[klaus]

I've picked up D&T not too long ago but have been testing extensively for the last two weeks. Below is the list that I ended up with for the time being. Crits = welcome.

4 AEther Vial
3 Flickerwisp -------------- %4: I hardly ever want to see him without an active Vial
1 Glowrider ------------------- I started out with 3 but it kind of messed up my curve. Still dig her
2 Jotun Grunt --------------------------- Obviously, this is a meta choice
1 Leonin Relic-Warder ----------------------------- Due to MoR Warder is MD material for sure imo. I like those extra copies in the board too
3 Mangara of Corondor ------------------------------------- playset: yes or no?
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger --------------------------------------------- upped her count step by step. Could be a three of just as well imo
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Stoneforge Mystic ------------------------------------------------- 4 felt clunky, like some people have stated before.
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares

4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy ------------------------------------------- have been happy with them - I wonder why so few people run them..
9 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas

SB:
1 Glowrider
3 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Grafdigger's Cage -----------------------has been discussed before - what's the current opinion on Cage?
3 Harm's Way -------------------------------------- Still testing that guy
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Surgical Extraction

What I didn't include:
Oblivion Ring: sucks with Thalia
Arbiter: the dissynergy with SFM could almost be ignored, but more often than not she didn't do enough for me. There doesn't seem to be a common consensus on her either. I might test her again though.
Mirran Crusader: another debatable choice. I guess she would be replacing in Jotun Grunt despite a different function. I like to keep the curve rather low though.

EDIT:
You're holding a hand consisting of 1 land, 1 Vial, 3 creatures, 1 equipment, 1 STP against an unknown deck.
Q1: Will you keep it on the draw?
Q2: Will you keep it on the play?

[Barbed Blightning]

You're holding a hand consisting of 1 land, 1 Vial, 3 creatures, 1 equipment, 1 STP against an unknown deck.
Q1: Will you keep it on the draw?
Q2: Will you keep it on the play?

I learned a while ago to never keep one-land hands, even with a plains. Have at least 2, always.

That said, while this list is interesting, I really think Flickerwisp should be at x4. Maybe he's only been used to untap a plains for a game or two--you can still bluff holding a STP in hand. Just last night I used him to pop out a batterskull-equipped 6/6 scavenging ooze and it won me the game. The Wisp does work.

[lavafrogg]

Is vial @ 3 the only reason flickerwisp is still in this deck? With the printing of better and better cards I feel that the fact that she flies and occasionally does something cool might not be worth the 3-4 spots in the deck. All of the original combat tricks and interactions have left the deck except for this last one, what make the card so keepable?

The double-striking crusader could easily fill the spot now that SFM has made equipment a auto include.

[from Cairo]

@Klaus' List

I like it. I agree Horizon Canopy is a house, if one's running 22-24 land I would definitely test 2 Canopy and also the miser's Ancient Tomb that Caleb Durward suggested during MM-Era, which has great synergy with SFM/Port activations and obviously Equipment casting/equip costs.

Is Harm's Way better than bringing in somethintg bomby like Elspeth or Timely Reinforcements against agro. I mean it's definitely cheaper, but it strikes me as hard to get much value out of - it rarely seems like it will be a 2 for 1, though I suppose it will frequently be a 2 for 2. Is it better than Oust or Condemn that pretty much always 1 for 1 in terms of board presence?

[Koby]

Has anyone tested Leyline of Sanctity vs Burn / Combo recently?

What results has it proven?

[Barbed Blightning]

Crusader is valueless against a 10/10 Scaevenging ooze, esp. with a L&S on the ooze or mom on their side. Those not withstanding, he becomes a wall for Ooze, Goyf and Knight. Jitte/Bolt/Swords/Jace get rid of Crusader easily, and maze of ith turns him into garbage as well.

Everyone forgets that, so long as Flickerwisp resovles, his ability goes on the stack. Barring a stifle, here's what he can do, as only a few examples:

Reset a Planeswalker, stopping them from going off on their ultimate
Kill a Germ token on a Batterskull
Pop out Thalia/Mangara/Grunt/anything to save them from removal/themselves.
Pop out Thalia to let us cast stuff at a normal price
Clear a jitte of counters, or provoke its user into using them at an inopportune time.
Pop out equipment so that our denial can prevent them from being equipped next turn.
Give us additional Stoneforge tutors
Untap a land--karakas, wasteland and port being the best, but also allowing a plains to be used to swords on their turn
Reset your revoker to something relevant
Reset an opponent's vial
Remove and opponent's land for a turn, useful on a maze
Save a permanent from board wipes/vindicates, esp. non-Mom targets.
Remove annoying creatures like mindcensor/arbiter so you can make a power play

Plus the uses described in the Primer, as well as plenty more I'm probably unaware of/can't think of to list right now. I'm fed up with complaints about this card, and REALLY sick of hearing this garble about Crusader. He's a beater, but that's all he is: a beater. Flickerwisp does so much more, has a more useful evasion (flying vs. pro G/B) and in the world of legacy as it currently stands--where creatures without huge toughness or are Mother of Runes die almost instantly or a few turns later--Flickerwisp is ten times more useful than Crusader.

D&T has never been a beatdown deck in my opinion. It's a Control/Disruption deck that, while using beaters like Avenger to win, truly wins off creatures with excellent abilities--like flickerwisp.

[nwong]

If you find yourself wanting Mirran Crusaders, I suggest switching to Maverick. They beat down better. Even then, most of them still don't run Crusader.

[Fry]

the reason why I don't have the Enlightened Tutor sideboard is because I just recently got the foils one I would need for it.

I've been playing DT for over a year now and rarely have troubles with the 21 land. Granted it will bite you once in a while, but that happens in any deck, bad draws will out.

I still think that the oblivion rings(even if they cost 4 mana with thalia in play) are worth the 2 mainboard slots. I particularly love flickering it and having something permanantly removed.

I've thought about adding a fourth arbiter in the main deck more than just a few times, but I haven't decided what I would cut for it, possibly one of the four flickerwisps. Vialing in an arbiter in response to a fetch is one of my favorite plays. What beats it when your opponent pays a life and sacs a land... and can't continue to fetch?

I may end up taking out the two oblivion rings for 2 glowriders, need to make up my mind on that one still.

[Curby]

Has anyone tested Leyline of Sanctity vs Burn / Combo recently?

What results has it proven?

Yost seems pretty unconcerned about facing it, between PoP and Flame Rift and creatures. The bigger problem for us is not effectiveness but slots. If you want to land it for free, you need 4. But then you could run CoP or another hoser in a single slot, and have room for three more Tutor targets.

[Koby]

Yost seems pretty unconcerned about facing it, between PoP and Flame Rift and creatures. The bigger problem for us is not effectiveness but slots. If you want to land it for free, you need 4. But then you could run CoP or another hoser in a single slot, and have room for three more Tutor targets.

This is mostly true, but COP:red isn't good vs Combo. Leyline does address Combo in a way that the other anti-red don't. I think the goal isn't so much to shut down all the spells, but the quick Bolts that make the PoPs and Flame Rifts dangerous. Both in this deck and in Maverick, dealing with their creatures is relatively easy. Dealing with their Bolts isn't, however.

[klaus]

the reason why I don't have the Enlightened Tutor sideboard is because I just recently got the foils one I would need for it.

I've been playing DT for over a year now and rarely have troubles with the 21 land. Granted it will bite you once in a while, but that happens in any deck, bad draws will out.

I still think that the oblivion rings(even if they cost 4 mana with thalia in play) are worth the 2 mainboard slots. I particularly love flickering it and having something permanantly removed.

I've thought about adding a fourth arbiter in the main deck more than just a few times, but I haven't decided what I would cut for it, possibly one of the four flickerwisps. Vialing in an arbiter in response to a fetch is one of my favorite plays. What beats it when your opponent pays a life and sacs a land... and can't continue to fetch?

I may end up taking out the two oblivion rings for 2 glowriders, need to make up my mind on that one still.

Glowriders haven't proven themselves as MD material, even though I started out with nice results.
Against anything non-Control, non-Combo they simply don't do much.
It boils down to being a meta card.

I see them in some SBs and have been running 2 in the board myself. Eventually I came to replace 1 with Thalia #4 instead. Something that I haven't seen here yet.
I strongly suggest this choice though - here's why:
Against combo you just need to cast that guy on turn two - Glowrider, at CMC 3, will come down a turn late more often than not.

Same for the Control MU: Thalia will draw removal like no other creature in our 75 - having that 4th copy certainly gives us an edge.
---

Arbiter #4 is something I have been considering too. It compares nicely to Stifle, regarding its early game power and late-game weakness. You want that card in your starting 7, since later on it'll merely be a Grizzly Bear. That's the exact same reasoning why nobody would ever consider going below 4 Stifles. Plus, even though that's an obvious aspect, their effect adds up the more you have on the board. 4 might be the correct number after all..

Here's my current list for reference:

4 AEther Vial
4 Flickerwisp
3 Mangara of Corondor
4 Mother of Runes
2 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Serra Avenger
3 Leonin Arbiter
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte

4 Swords to Plowshares
(-38-)

4 Wasteland
2 Horizon Canopy
9 Plains
3 Rishadan Port
4 Karakas
(-22-)

SB:
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 meta'd E.T. target
1 Thalia
1 Glowrider
2 Leonin Relic-Warder
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Creature Hate - to be announced...

[Curby]

This is mostly true, but COP:red isn't good vs Combo. Leyline does address Combo in a way that the other anti-red don't. I think the goal isn't so much to shut down all the spells, but the quick Bolts that make the PoPs and Flame Rifts dangerous. Both in this deck and in Maverick, dealing with their creatures is relatively easy. Dealing with their Bolts isn't, however.

I was writing a more detailed post, but to summarize, all competitive combo decks have at least two of (1) enchantment destruction (2) bounce and (3) nontargeting kill. The solution to combo decks is disrupting the ramp and the engine (a'la Thalia, Revoker, etc.) and not the kill card. That said though, an active Leyline does require them to produce an answer while/before comboing off, which will at least make them work harder for their win.

Regardless, the main concern I had with Leyline wasn't really the usefulness but rather the slots taken. Is it so much better for you than the alternatives that you're willing to spend three extra slots on it? Is this a metagame consideration (i.e. you're playing with tons of combo and Burn)?

My meta features both combo and Burn. I've been hoping to rely on Thalia to swing the matchups in our favor, but am interested in hearing other opinions as well.