UBr (MD post #3574) question - SB ideas/strategies with UR crap?
sadly I found out its my worst match-up I'm frequently confronted with, it potentially represents the same clock Burn could and still has those random Spellsnares, Fows and Snaplocks or ... I found I just can't read their hands and play efficiently
All games I've ever won were just they played badly or drew real nothing and still it was close...and its even worse with Extraction and Pillar...
I have tried
3x Empty the Warrens - which is too slow unless played T1, T2, totally random ...and is even worse MD as suggested some time above
3x Defense Grid - which is kind of ok, but underperforming in other matches
usually with 3x +Chain of vapor for pillars/delvers/warrens
I'm currently on 3x Pyroblast 1x EtW -1xAd Nauseam, -1xPreordain, -1 Therapy, -1xIsland and ignoring the Pillars... better but still not good...
3x Pyroblast
2x Empty the Warrens
3x Extirpate
2x Pyroclasm
1x Virtues Ruin
2x Chain of Vapor
1x Echoing Truth
1x ? metachoice (Hurkyls Recall/EtW/Infest/Wipeaway/Sadistic Sacrament)
so the question is SB: 3xpyroblast/3xgrid/3xother?
Opinions/experience using Nihil spellbomb as a Snap/GY hate?
Guys,
I have been thinking to play this deck over TES due to consistency issues and I was wondering why ppl would play Grim Tutor? I am not looking for comments on cost. ANT only plays 4 tutors. Is this alleviated with Ill gotten gains and past in flames or not? In ANT, do you play either 1 main and the other 1 side?
thanx for your help.
Proper English and grammar, please.Originally Posted by slaydo
And you play 2 Grim Tutor's main because ANT has fewer business spells and fast mana than TES.
TES can more consistently win games on turns 1 and 2 than ANT because it plays 10 business spells versus 7.
ANT is good at consistently not losing to Wasteland.
In ANT, if you play Past in Flames, play Iggy in the board, or just not play Past in Flames and keep Iggy in the maindeck.
There haven't been too many good finishes with Past in Flames outside Elie Pichon's GP Amsterdam Top 8 upset and some smaller European tournaments.
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Thank you for the feedback.
Iggy are inferior choice to PiF ...that's the same with Thrash, in Europe people tend to play Mongoose over Snapcaster, I haven't seen straight UB doing good anywhere except SCG and even that is suspicious...
Iggy is only inferior to Pif when not playing chants (thus not splashing white).
And Chant is superior to Duress when playing against Thress Imo.
The only reason the splash for RED is Burning Wish, otherwise the Chants are allot better the what PiF brings to your gameplan.
So if you do not see the need for Burning Wish (or believe that when playing Burning Wish you should play TES, as I do) then I think the best build is a version of UBw ANT with 7 chants MD.
Agreed.
I've switched to a 7 chant UBw list recently and haven't looked back on duress or B. Wish jet.
I've never had too much a problem with this deck -- keep in mind, they typically run max 10 counters pre-board (3-4 daze, 2-3 force, 2+ spell pierce/snare), and they have to actively use all their mana to get damage through, so they can't typically leave up pierce.
Preboard, don't run your duresses into Daze, and other than that, play like they're a burn deck -- they don't run enough counters to matter. Mulligan aggressively, as keeping hands that don't do anything is an easy way to lose.
Postboard, my entire game plan is to keep their creatures off the board -- if you do that, they're just a really bad burn deck. So, for you, I'd board in 2x Pyroclasm, 2x Chain of Vapor.
Also -- I'm not sure why you run Pyroblast in the board. I would run additional Thoughtseize/Duress if your U/B/R, or run Chants if you're 4 color. Pyroblast is just a bad version of both, and is just about the most awkward thing you can do if you're trying to crack an LED.
Boarding in Grave Hate to stop Snapcaster is really, really bad in general, and even worse against that deck. Honestly, you should probably be outracing Snapcaster, particularly on the play, and on the draw...they run about 4 spells that can be Snapcastered to benefit (and Pierce is FAR more common than Snare, and Pierce is not a hard card to play around when you can see it coming from a mile away).
Daze is not run in favor of SS/SP around me
I though about pyroclasm, I don't know it feels counter intuitive he just bolts/snapbolts me the same... I feel I can't fight both clock and disruption they always seem to have the other type of hand I'm prepared for or I'm just unlucky bad player... its subjectively worst my matchup in my meta
4th color would be total mess... I've encountered the pyro/Led problem, it is awkward... reasoning behind pyro is it deals with Snapcaster and V.clique when discard could not (in your big turn), sidefx it kills Delver if needed, helps with counterbalance, top->counterspell/stifle, or Arcane Lab local guy used to play
I mean as a GY, not in this particular matchup
It's possible you need to keep more aggressive hands? I don't know your exact list, but if you're having trouble with Snapcaster -> Bolt, it seems like you would have trouble racing a lot of aggressive decks.
I board in removal because their dorks are annoying, as they up their clock pretty substantially -- my removal suite is 3x Chain of Vapor, 2x Slaughter pact -- I've never actually tested Pyroclasm, but it seems fine. Typically I board out:
-1 Underground Sea
-3 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Ad Nauseam
My list is similar to the GP Amsterdam list without the green splash.
I've never been a huge fan of the 4 color lists either, just wasn't sure what exactly you were playing.
I find it interesting people board specific cards for Vendillion Clique -- usually I just try to use my cantrips wisely if I have seen/expect it from them (save a brainstorm, keep a card you need 2 cards down on ponder, etc). I've just never had any luck trying to run reactive cards in Tendrils decks.
We play nearly the same deck then... I have +2 preordain, -1 land, 4 duals, no Crystal Vein, 61cards
9/10 7card hands can go off at T1-T3 if played aggressively, 6card turn later so I do not mulligan unless its complete (match-up) garbage, we're talking both know what the other is playing
I mean on the top of that - you kill some guide/delver, they snapbolt finish you, Pyroclasm seem too narrow answer.. It's not like I can't race their deck, but they can sometimes hold me off enough time to snaplock and burn me, which is just worse with Extraction and Pillar postboard, its not like I lose all the games, but feel unfavored where it seems ok on paper and shows horrible in practice, all wins just too close for my liking... and it cost me better prices in weekly tournaments... but maybe you're right I'll give it a try tomorrow...
I don't usually go under 3 probes G2 i really like the card, pyroclasm is awesome in my experience
Pyroblast is not for Clique, but can serve the purpose, a lot o blue decks run it... its just test in the swarm slots as many expect creatures postboard and SB bayou weakens MD manabase
anyway thanx for your answers
I went 10-5 with UB ANT at GP Indy. I placed 98 of 1212. Here is a mini tourney report.
R1 Bye
1-0
R2 Affinity. 1-2. Lost to Mindbreak Trap G2 and I boarded out Ill-Gotten Gains G3 and that cost me the game
1-1
R3 Mono Red 2-1
2-1
R4 RUG Delver. 2-1. G3 went like this:
He has a Snapcaster in hand. He has Spell Snare and Stifle in yard. I cast Infernal Tutor. He Spell Snares. I cast 3x LED, Lotus Petal, 2x Dark Ritual, Tendrils
3-1
R5 UW Stoneblade. 2-0
4-1
R6 RUG Delver. 1-2
4-2
R7 RUG Delver. 2-0
5-2
R8 High Tide. 2-0
G1: T1 Thoughtseize, T2,3,4 Duress
G2: T2 Dark Rit, Thoughtseize x2 and Bob
6-2
R9 Hive Mind 2-0. Beat double Leyline with 2x Bob G2
7-2
R10 Stoneblade. 2-0
8-2
R11 Maverick. 1-2 He had double Leyline. I went to Ad Nauseam while at 18 life and went down to 1. I cast Ill-Gotten Gains to return Tendrils, Ponder, and Brainstorm to try to find 2x Chain of Vapor or 1x Chain and 1x Infernal Tutor and I missed
8-3
R12 Esper Stoneblade vs Sam Black. Kept a 1 lander, played around Wasteland, mana screwed.
8-4
R13 vs Combo Elvers. 1-2. He attacked me out with Thorns G2 and G3
8-5
R14. Dredge. 2-1.
9-5
R15. Burn. 2-0
10-5
Here is the list that I played:
Maindeck:
Spells
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Chain of Vapor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Tendrils of Agony
Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Swamp
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Island
2 Underground Sea
Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Thoughtseize
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Hurkyl's Recall
I watched this match at the GP. Echoing Truth man
That Maverick player was such a douche to you.
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He didnt seem that douchey. He used Bojuka Bog too early and he didnt apply enough pressure to make Ad Nauseam no longer be an out.I watched this match at the GP. Echoing Truth man
That Maverick player was such a douche to you.
I went 11-4 in Indy with this list (no byes) :
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 LED
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Grim Tutor
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils
4 Polluted Delta
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 U Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Island
1 Swamp
SB:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Thoughtseize
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Slaughter Pact
2 Empty the Warrens
My Terrible Tournament Report
Rd1 Win 2-0
White Stax
G1 he goes T1 Mox Diamond (pitch Wasteland) -> Mistveil plains go. I name Trinisphere on Cabal Therapy, he discards it and does nothing the rest of the game.
G2 he lands a trinisphere and a smokestack. I play a bunch of Dark Confidants and Empty the Warrens for 0 storm a few times, and kill him with 1/1 and 2/1 beat down.
Rd2 Win 2-0
Rug
G1 I take because he has no clock. G2 he boards in Life from the Loam...eventually he draws it and dies because he boarded in Life from the Loam.
Rd3 Loss 1-2
TES
I hate storm matchups...G1 he kills me faster, G2 I kill him faster, G3 he kills me faster.
Rd4 Win 2-0
pox
rd5 Win 2-1
esper stoneforge
rd6 Win 2-x
?? u/w stoneforge I think
rd7 win 2-0
zoo
rd8 Win 2-1
white weenie with sideboard chalice
This was an unexpected board plan -- G3 I win because my hand is randomly like cabal ritual x3, Lion's Eye, Infernal Tutor, so his chalice is a blank.
rd9 win 2-0
maverick
He mulligans to 5 both games, I end up discarding or killing his hate bears.
rd10 loss (caleb d) 0-2
RUG
Game 1 it gets into a situation where he has 1 blind card, lethal on board, and I win unless it's a daze. It's a daze.
Game 2 I keep a hand heavy on discard, but kind of slow (I actually like that in this matchup, since they typically don't clock you that much). He goes t1 delver -> flip, t2 delver -> flip, and ends the game with something like Force/2x Stifle in hand. Was never really in this one.
rd11 loss 1-2
U/W stoneforge
Very close games here, end up losing G3 when he has a blind card in hand and need to win. The blind card is Snapcaster and I can't play through it.
rd13 Win 2-1
u/w Stoneforge
These matches were definitely good practice in playing around Vendillion Clique, as he had them every game and used them well. His list didn't have much of a clock outside of Clique, so I was able to take my time to kill him and eventually got there. He runs a million Spell Snares, and Grim Tutor ends up being an all star.
rd13 Win 2-0
RUG
I take G1 as he doesn't have much of a clock. He boards into counterbalance, but I'm able to duress it before it lands, and eventually get there.
rd14 Loss 1-2
Dream Halls -- I take game 1 in a pretty intense game (I play Past in Flame twice this game, both times I end up tutoring up an LED to crack for blue to cantrip my way into a bunch of cards - the first time to force him to play a daze and slow him down, the second to kill him). Game 2, he mulligans to 4, I get cocky, start playing poorly, and he plays Dream Halls -> Conflux. I Ad Naus in response down to 2, don't hit Chain of Vapor, and die. Looking back, at the very least I should have continued to go on Ad Naus, but there were a million misplays this game and I deserved to lose. G3 he goes T2 show and tell -> Dream Halls, I try to Chain of Vapor and he has the force. The dude was an ass (was trying his hardest to rules lawyer me out of the game...I think I had a judge called on me 2-3 times, and dude after every spell I cast insists on counting my hand, etc), but this was a pretty fun match. Dude I played -- if you're reading this: You're an ass, it's a game, and you're not even playing for top 8. Calm the fuck down.
rd15 win 2-0
Aggro Loam
These weren't actually games...G1 he keeps a fine hand against most decks. I kill him Turn 2 on the play, he never cast a spell.
G2 he plays Turn 2 Sphere of Resistance, but misses his 3rd land drop. I play turn 3 bob while he continues to miss land drops. I eventually play more bobs and kill him with a tiny tendrils.
Ended up being good for 51st and $200.
Last edited by aaronm678; 03-12-2012 at 07:38 PM.
I love more people jumping on the Orim's Chant wagon, as I've always loved and advocated Ubw ant over other colors.... 7 chant builds are sexy.
Is there a representative list somewhere? I only find normal lists (aka the one I am playing right now and getting bored of) or I find lists playing red (the one I am about to try, if I don't find a list with white soon lol)
I'm curious. What's the list your running look like. I've found most 7 chant builds look similar to ub and you just cut a tutor or preordain for a protection spell.
Generally, Ubw looks like this:
4 Silence
2 Grim Tutor
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Ponder
1 Chain of Vapor
3 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Orim's Chant or Duress
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded strand
2 Swamp
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
It's Ub with 2 cards cut for 1 protection and a md CoV.
There's also some lists I posted a couple pages back that have white in them and have done well in large tournaments....
Ari lax just posted this list in his premium article on scg. It looks pretty sweet. I don't know about 2 rains but 1 could be worth the slot.
3 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
Instants
2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
3 Orim's Chant
2 Rain of Filth
4 Silence
Sorceries
1 Grim Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
4 Infernal Tutor
4 Ponder
2 Preordain
1 Tendrils of Agony
Basic Lands
1 Island
1 Swamp
Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Marsh Flats
4 Polluted Delta
1 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
Sideboard:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Chain of Vapor
2 Rebuild
1 Grim Tutor
1 Preordain
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Island
1 Plains
aaronm678 Congratulations how are 17 lands working for you? // would you change anything?
j_rb I'd feel dead to maverick, with all respect to Ari Lax this is nice 2 Ad Nauseam nostalgia but I can't see a good deck in it
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