I'm still sure 4 spell snare is the best.Format is too much defined by 2 drops. I also play a one off loam md , so much value and makes ur lavamancers better(I play 3md)1 side. I've never had any problems with dredge,the combination of my 2 relic 1 tormod 2 surgical seems to work great.
We are talking about sideboard options. In game 2, you have Ancient Grudge alongside your sweeper. Firespout does not get around equipment, which is an actual problem. You don't want to get stuck with Spout in hand and be facing down a Sworded Geist which you can slay with a Snapcaster Mage, Clique or Goyf. Otherwise, you have to deal with creatures like Mother of Runes, Scryb Ranger and other annoying 1/1s which you don't even want to blow Firespout to kill 1-2. Fire//Ice feels okay to use if you get a 2 for 1, since you can do it without tapping out and exposing yourself to a threat you have to blow Force on.
Swarming isn't a big issue since there is a lot of removal with Grim. Hexproof is annoying but equipment is the real killer in those match ups.
This deck used to run Ponder. But Preordain is actually legitimately better in a control deck; you don't have to waste your fetches to ditch cards and it is a stronger turn 1 play. Top is really mana hungry. Only decks that have little to do with their mana can run it and they usually run 23 land instead of 21. Each cantrip allows you to cut on land and cheat on slots a little bit.
Stifle provides one thing that Spell Pierce does not: A nut draw. Imagine a starting hand of Stifle, Stifle, Waste, Blue Source, three other cards. That hand can rip apart many decks in the format. You protect yourself from Wastelands, negate Fetches, even stop Rift Bolt (Burn isn't a spectacular match up). Spell Pierce isn't bad but it is just another card that makes the deck defensive. Stifle gives you more avenues of attack by aggressively attacking a plan. Pierce is really important in combo match ups and in Jace mirrors.
Dredge is a horrid match up. We've tested it a lot and Ichorid + Bridge is brutal. Even Ichorid alone is a problem since you can't gain life and they can just run out the clock on you. As rancOr_ pointed out, unless you devote an excessive amount of board space to hate, it's not a good match up. Relic and two Surgical can get there, but you weaken other match ups (like Maverick).
I used to think about cutting preordain. Then I played with it, and the more i played with it the more i realized that it's nuts. lets me cheat on lands, and is oftentimes during gameplay basically ancestral. I always find myself looking for something (land, force of will, threat) and can go bottom, bottom, draw. This deck is very flexible, and can go offensive really quickly. Not so if you decide to run divining top. Top changes the dynamic completely. You spend a card and a bunch of mana to try and go up on cards. That is a control player's goal, and fine if you want to play a long game. This deck wants to be able to switch into aggro mode really quickly. Don't play top.
also regarding stifle: This card next to brainstorm is one of the biggest skill testers on both sides of the table. People who don't play around it get crushed by it, and people who don't know how to play the card get crushed by their bad play. YOU DON'T AUTO TARGET FETCHLANDS!!!!!!!!! If they're fine on mana and you aren't getting a tempo advantage, save it to brainstorm away or to pitch to force. Against reanimator, i kept a hand (mull to 5) of land, land, stifle, stifle, counterspell. I had 2-3 opportunities to stifle fetches within the first handful of turns but i didn't, cuz he had a lot of lands in play and reanimator works off 1-2 lands. Eventually he went for animate dead with force backup and i destroyed him with double stifle. moral of the story: do not just blind jam your stifle because you can. think about whether it is actually doing anything, and think about how you can get the most value out of your card.
been doing a decent amount of testing in preparation for GP Indy. My sideboard at the moment:
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Spell Pierce
2 Mind Harness
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Grim Lavamancer
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Engineered Explosives
The matchup I have been focusing on has been GW maverick. The grim lavamancer in the board needs to come in against that deck, as mother of runes is a problem unanswered. I also bring in the explosives, and that card has been good in testing in blowing up multiple 1 drops. Clique is good against their slower draws, but I'm not sure if I need to board that in yet. The artifact destruction is a must against them. The matchup is close, but their trumps are a little better than yours. I no longer think boarding out goyfs is the right answer, as Thrun is a big problem that needs to be answered. Right now I go for -4 Stifle -2 FOW -1 goyf -1 snare +1 grim +2 mind harness +2 Ancient grudge +1 nature's claim +1 clique +1 EE. I'm not sure how right that is, as it matters how the list you're battling is set up, but in testing the matchups have been decently close.
The other two matches that I'm concerned about are RUG delver + mongoose and dredge. Dredge there's not that much to say about, all we can really do is add a 3rd graveyard hate option. The old RUG delver lists without mongoose don't pose a problem but the ones with mongoose do. Has anyone done any testing against this? my plan is to take out Jaces and bring in mind harness, EE, relic, ....but I have not actually played it out. Let me know your experiences. I'm not sure about the 3rd clique in my board. I've brought it in a lot, it's been really good when I brought it in, but usually it gets brought it against decks that I already have a good or decent matchup against already. It's great against any sort of non-dredge combo deck, control deck, or any deck that wants to grind. However, I'm wondering if the spot could be used for an extra graveyard hate spot in the board or something else. Maybe I want to just try and sidestep dredge at this GP, tho I'm not sure how likely it is. What do you guys think?
My list for reference:Originally Posted by Endure2004
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Fire // Ice
2 Counterspell
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Stifle
2 Preordain
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Sylvan Library
1 Mountain
2 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
SB: 2 Mind Harness
SB: 2 Submerge
SB: 2 Spell Pierce
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB against GW Maverick:
+2 Mind Harnes, +2 Submerge, +2 Spell Pierce, +2 Ancient Grudge, +2 Relic of Progenitus, + 1 Sylvan Library
-4 Force of Will, -2 Stifle, -3 Spell Snare, -2 Vendilion Clique
Just try to keep the table clean and get Sylvan or Jace down to dig for whatever you need and get card advantage.
Against RUG Delver with mongooses you want rebs (kills delver, protects your spells from snare etc.) and relics to keep mongooses 1/1 (only breaking them in the worst case scenario as they have stifles). Sylvan Library is awesome here as well.
Dredge is though, if you feel its very relevant matchup add 2 Surgicals on top of having 1 tormod and 2 relic.
Ive played vs a fair amount of RUGdelver both in testing and sanctioned, thus far I have won most of them but the games are always very very close. As u said the mongooses make it much harder but its doable. I board like this : -4fow,-2 jace, -2 counterspell +2 relic, +2 spell pierce, +1 grim, + 3 REB. I dont think u are playing with LftL but this card is also huge here.. as against so many other decks, I can only recommend it. I dont bring in surgicals here as sometimes they are dead and that can mean gg vs a deck like TT.
I wouldnt bring in mind harness. The only target are their Goyfs,and they will bring in REBs for sure so they can even destroy it. Plan here is always keep snare open for potential goyfs (or counterbalance) post side if they play it.
My sideboard has looked like this the last 7months and its been doing really good: 2relic 1 tormod, 1grim,2mind harness, 1grudge,4 REB,2spell pierce, 2surgical.
I dont think u really need the Clique in side and if u cut something else u can go +2 surgicals. I mean the Clique is vs combo etc where u are already doing good. I have faced Ichorid 6 times and won them all so far.
Against Maverick I never board out Tarmogoyf,and if they play P. fire I mostly board in 1-(2) surgicals aswell. I really like the one off claim ur playing, have to test that aswell,since its another answer to choke etc!
What's up all, just wanted to let you know I top 8'd another NELC at Jupiter Games, that's 3 NELC's in a row and 5 legacy events in a row that I've top 8'd. The deck is treating me very well. Expect a tournament report soon.
here's my report for gp Indy:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...polis-with-NLT
Nice finish. Why would u want to cut stifle?I still think its one of the better cards in the deck. Played in 2tournaments agn got 10th of 104 and 3th of 44. So I tried the crucible again instead of the loam I was playing and cut a waste for a one off mishra. It worked pretty good and it's not like I'm missing that waste. Played with 2f/I they are pretty good aswell atm but still not sure if there should be a dismember instead of a fire. Cut the clique completely now, was only playing one.
I've just been siding out stifle in almost every matchup, so I wanted to try a build without it. I'm not sure if it is correct or not, it's just an experiment for now. I'll let you know how it goes.
Let us know how it goes! I have been very happy with them. The list I have been on is nearly identical to the one you took to Indy.
Mainboard
-1 Preordain
-1 Dismember
+1 Fire//Ice
+1 Sylvan Library
Sideboard
-1 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Natures Claim
-1 Mind Harness
-1 Engineered Explosives
+1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
+1 Tormod's Crypt
+2 Surgical Extraction
I really like the Sylvan Library main board it complements Jace very nicely.
I've been playing this deck with 21 lands for about a year now and I've always wanted to include the 22nd land. I started out 5-1 at Indy but lost 2 in a row to RUG and Maverick. I feel that as long as you get up to 4 lands against RUG, you should be fine. Now that they run mongeese, I've considered dropping 4x stifle for 1 taiga, 2 EE and 1 sylvan. As for Maverick, dealing with knight and choke is a pain. My board against Mav was 3x mind harness and whenever I drew the harness, I was just getting choked out of the game. Cards I've considered were replacing ancient grudges with nature claim's or running cursed totems.
How is the testing for this deck going?
Stifles seem too critical/important to this deck's strategy to be cut. Also how does this deck fare in a meta with Esperblade, Maverick and RUG Delver? Is it poorly positioned?
Also Sulfur Elemental seems like a new 1 of SB card
I run a one off sulfur elemental side now where I had an ee first. Might make spot for a 2nd as its really good vs maverick obv. I still think that stifle is needed,but im testing a build now with delver in their place. Playing with 2fire//ice md is also quite nice.
I have played a bit less lately (not many tournaments locally as of late) and when I have played I usually finish 3-2 due losing to some random matchups like Burn/Dredge/Stax/Painter.
Last weekend I managed to sneak into top 8 in small tournament and today I split finals in another small tournament.
Current list:
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Grim Lavamancer
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Counterspell
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
2 Preordain
1 Ponder
1 Forked Bolt
1 Sylvan Library
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mountain
1 Polluted Delta
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Island
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Wasteland
SB:
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Surgical Extraction
2 Mind Harness
2 Submerge
2 Ancient Grudge
1 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Spell Pierce
1 Sulfur Elemental
I havent had yet chance to test Loam, it could be better than the 3rd sorcery cantrip. I've liked the consistency the 3rd cantrip gives as I used to lose games when I couldnt find removal or Goyf.
If I were to go larger tournament I'd definitely want 4th grave hate and 3rd spell pierce in the SB but theres no room :(
With Miracle cards coming soon have you guys given Predict some consideration?
Last edited by dsck; 04-17-2012 at 03:31 PM. Reason: card tag, I always forget its cards instead card
I've been running predict in Canadian thresh for a few weeks. It has been fine - but I've never directly won any games with it. Drawing 2 is pretty sweet - but if you're metagaming for shitty timewalk effects already I think you may be doing it wrong.
The coolest thing I've done so far is knock a FOW off the top of opponents library when he revealed it to delver. He ended up drawing a sumberge for the win. Go figure.
Only posts when drunk.
hey all, just updating you all on my list. I've been making some changes, and here's what I'm running currently:
2 grim lavamancer
4 tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion clique
2 Jace, the mind sculptor
3 snapcaster mage
4 brainstorm
3 preordain
4 force of will
2 counterspell
3 spell snare
3 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt
1 fire/ice
1 forked bolt
3 volcanic island
4 tropical island
2 island
1 mountain
4 scalding tarn
4 misty rainforest
4 wasteland
sideboard
2 pyroblast
1 red elemental blast
1 surgical extraction
2 relic of progenitus
2 mind harness
1 grim lavamancer
2 sulfur elemental
2 ancient grudge
1 nature's claim
1 sower of temptation
N
some notes:
preordain has been really good for me, so i wanted the 3rd
dismember has been sucking, it got cut
sower entered the board because most maverick lists are running 4 swords and thats it for removal, so sowering a knight of an ooze should be huge
lingering souls is tough to beat, thus the forked bolt main for the dismember and the 2 sulfur elementals
4 stifles became the 4th trop (22nd land) and 3 spell pierce
i didn't do too hot at the last NELC, but that was because i was running storm combo hahahahahaha. I'm gonna go back to my roots and run this deck from now on, it's treated me the best. let me know your thoughts
There will be bunch of people trying to break it in the next few tournaments when it has been released but yeah seems bit silly to overprepare.
@ Endure
Having Pierces instead stifles MD opens good amount sb slots which seems awesome. I may try stifleless list sometime soon and see how it goes.
Dropped Stifles for 3x Pierce and the 22nd land. Been testing 1 Underground Sea for Perish in the board and seems good.
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