[Deck] Dredge

[Final Fortune]

NecroYawgmoh- All day, i felt that careful study was the weakest card. I'm curious to your reasoning for cutting a Breakthrough for a Careful Study? Regarding my maindeck- I'm really pleased with what i have right now. The only possible slot that could be worked on is whether it's needed to add a 14th land or not. (I don't think it's at all needed.)

Also, I don't think too much space is needed for the Flayer. Just the third Dread Return and cut the Flame-Kin Zealot.

Jares- I'll keep on trying firestorm in testing, but from what i saw in the GP, I never needed it/cast it. (I did have it in hand multiple times, but there were always better things to do with my mana. )

One interesting observation- Dredge is slowly becoming two different decks, with very slight variation between the two- The Combo Dredge deck, which aims to win as fast as possible, and the Attrition Dredge, which seeks to win through superior "card advantage" over the opponents. Am i wrong in making that statement?

I disagree, Dredge isn't becoming two decks, because Dredge the attrition deck is how Dredge the combo deck is designed to play games 2 and 3 unless you're playing with Phantasmagorian etc. It's just that some people prefer to have a winning chance vs Storm and Reanimator with LED, some people prefer to have the best U.dec match up they can and other people are still stuck on cute shit that doesn't actually help them win.

[HokusSchmokus]

I would also say that there is a good and cuute way to build the deck. It's not like you have a worse MU against fast storm and reanimator either.
Also careful study is almost everytime the better carf in comparison to breakthrough. If you face hate that is. Discard all is just way too bad.

[Gui]

Established deck? Like hell, didn't it just top 8 GP Indy? Ya, totally should be downgraded after that.

It depends on last month results, and it's a math formula rather than the will of someone. Be sure that Dredge will be DTB next month, due to GP.

Also, Dredge is a weird deck that is never off of the list of expected decks to beat.

[jares]

Jares- I'll keep on trying firestorm in testing, but from what i saw in the GP, I never needed it/cast it. (I did have it in hand multiple times, but there were always better things to do with my mana. )

I'll be interested in the results of your testing when you're done.

One interesting observation- Dredge is slowly becoming two different decks, with very slight variation between the two- The Combo Dredge deck, which aims to win as fast as possible, and the Attrition Dredge, which seeks to win through superior "card advantage" over the opponents. Am i wrong in making that statement?

While I would agree that the difference in the play style of the two "types" of Dredge is indeed noticeable, I wouldn't go as far as to say that these two configurations are from two different Deck Archetypes. Rather, I would say that these different configurations are from the same Deck Archetype, but are variations that differ in the mode of attack.

As mentioned by Final Fortune, there will always be some configurations that will be "stuck on cute shit", as not all of us prefer winning over "being cute" (though some are able to do both! ). At the end of the day, though, all these configurations have the common denominator that can be simplified into the following: LAND, DISCARD, DRAW, DREDGE. In comparison, Manaless Dredge distinctively lacks the "LAND" part of this denominator by going all-out with the DDD plan, which is enough to have it be tagged as a different Deck Archetype altogether (though still included in the bigger Dredge "umbrella").

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Michael Keller]

Top 4'ed the Xanadu Games's St. Patrick's Day Legacy event in Maryland with Dredge. Report coming soon.

[voltron00x]

Played my first Legacy tournament in 4 months with zero testing; split the finals. Faithless Looting version of this deck is unreal, definitely needs 4x Ichorid (I'd suggest 3 main 1 SB which is what I used) and I feel like running Leylines in the SB is a waste of space unless the mirror is incredibly common where you're playing.

Sort of curious if anyone's tried Bloodghast out of the board to help beat the Snapcaster/Extraction interaction, or Unmask (or the two together?). Firestorm might need to be a 4x also to beat these decks packing a ton of Scavenging Ooze.

Anyway, this has to be the best combo deck in Legacy at the moment.

[HokusSchmokus]

Except that the combo version is the weaker one imo:p

[voltron00x]

Except that the combo version is the weaker one imo:p

How so? The 4 CS / 4 Looting / 4 LED builds are fast & consistent. Best of both worlds. Play 3 Ichorids and you can slow-Dredge like a champ vs. control decks and out-race almost anything else.

[dredgekid]

How so? The 4 CS / 4 Looting / 4 LED builds are fast & consistent. Best of both worlds. Play 3 Ichorids and you can slow-Dredge like a champ vs. control decks and out-race almost anything else.

He's referring to the choice to either play or not play DR in the main (or in the 75 at all). Basically all lists are running LED now, so the "combo" version is the one with DR and DR targets in the main.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

[voltron00x]

He's referring to the choice to either play or not play DR in the main (or in the 75 at all). Basically all lists are running LED now, so the "combo" version is the one with DR and DR targets in the main.

Correct me if I'm wrong though.

Ah, I see. Seems to me like playing 2x Dread Return 1x FKZ (or reasonable facsimile) is low investment for high return in the match-ups where you need it.

[dredgekid]

Ah, I see. Seems to me like playing 2x Dread Return 1x FKZ (or reasonable facsimile) is low investment for high return in the match-ups where you need it.

It's a higher investment than you would initially think. The cards you are cutting are Ichorids and Golgari Thugs. Cutting the Ichorids decreases your ability to grind out long games, and cutting thugs decreases your consistency. This being said, I'll probably always lean towards combo dredge, because IMO if you're doing something degenerate, it should win you the game on the spot :D

[NecroYawgmoth]

Played the quadlazer list to the 3rd playce [out of 32] with the following changes, today:

-4 Putrid Imp
-1 Golgari Thug

+3 Dread Return
+1 Flayer of the Hatebound
+1 Sphinx of Lost Truths [Intention to speed up the combodraw and draw into Flayer]

I made this changes because I always board the PImps out in quadlazer, and I don't think they're that good anymore... Additionaly I wanted to test the Flayer. Flayer was cute and sped up the deck by a turn, [I did 4 Flayer kills in the tourney] but I am not yet sure if he is just too cool. I even did a first turn kill with him. Sphinx was meh, like always. >_>

I forgot to change my Sideboard, so I needed to play the standard Quadlazer board.

MUs:

Aggroloam - Win 2:1
Grinding Station [Stormcombo] - Win 2:1
Countertop - Lose [Cages & Snapcaster Extractions] 1:2
Nic Fit - Win 2:1
Reanimator - Win [very close] 2:1

Seems like I bahed the bad MUS and lost against the good one. ^^

[Godmode]

Is anyone watching SCG live stream right now?!

They just went full retard! LMAO!!! That was awkward...

[voltron00x]

It's a higher investment than you would initially think. The cards you are cutting are Ichorids and Golgari Thugs. Cutting the Ichorids decreases your ability to grind out long games, and cutting thugs decreases your consistency. This being said, I'll probably always lean towards combo dredge, because IMO if you're doing something degenerate, it should win you the game on the spot :D

I played 3 Ichorid 3 Thug main, 4th Ichorid in the SB

[Michael Keller]

When I Top 4'ed, I ran two Ichorid and one board. I broke the "cardinal" rule, but somehow it paid off. I also opted to run thirteen dredgers, plus one Darkblast. Turned out to be really good.

[joemauer]

For game one two ichorids are usually a good number, despite lately I have been running three.

When goldfishing the fastest, most explosive hand possible numberous ichorids actually impede and slow you down. They don't do much for a turn one or turn two kill.

Three dread returns are usually the most optimal when going the quick kill as well(whether flayed or SotLT+flame kin). You would be surprised how often two dread returns can be in the bottom half of your deck. Also, with three dread returns you can easily dredge your whole deck in one turn with Sphinx of the Lost Truths and Cabal Therapies.

[Kage]

Is anyone watching SCG live stream right now?!

They just went full retard! LMAO!!! That was awkward...

What happened?

[Godmode]

What happened?

They brought to the booth a girl dressed as 'Eternal Witness' (full costume) and Matthias Hunt started a Q&A with her (in character/responding as 'the Eternal Witness') and it got awkward with some nerdy/silly questions. Matthias didn't know what to ask, she didn't know what to answer... at some point they were staring at eachother cringing. They just went way too nerdy with that, IMO.

I should say, afterwards Adrian Sullivan came in, broke the ice and made it a nice/more natural interview (with her speaking as herself and not the character). Ultimately, the first part, was a 'not very good' experience, but it all ended well.

[jares]

For game one two ichorids are usually a good number, despite lately I have been running three.

When goldfishing the fastest, most explosive hand possible numberous ichorids actually impede and slow you down. They don't do much for a turn one or turn two kill.

Three dread returns are usually the most optimal when going the quick kill as well(whether flayed or SotLT+flame kin). You would be surprised how often two dread returns can be in the bottom half of your deck. Also, with three dread returns you can easily dredge your whole deck in one turn with Sphinx of the Lost Truths and Cabal Therapies.

I agree that [2x] Ichorids sounds like just the right number for a build that aims to finish the game as early as possible, given that you won't really need more than one because Dread Return really is the "star player" of your game plan. In relation to that, going with [3x] Cabal Therapy also seems enough, though I would still run the full set of Cabal Therapy and Ichorids in my 75-card list.

I find that [3x] Dread Returns are necessary to be able to reliably "chain" into Sphinx of Lost Truths (or something equivalent to it) and your "killer" DR target (FKZ, Flayer of the Hatebound; you may even want to DR Flayer of the Hatebound twice, just to show-off ). Otherwise, if I just expect to cast one Dread Return a game, then [2x] would seem enough.

Kind Regards,
jares

[Lt. Quattro]

NecroYawgmoh- All day, i felt that careful study was the weakest card. I'm curious to your reasoning for cutting a Breakthrough for a Careful Study? Regarding my maindeck- I'm really pleased with what i have right now. The only possible slot that could be worked on is whether it's needed to add a 14th land or not. (I don't think it's at all needed.)

Also, I don't think too much space is needed for the Flayer. Just the third Dread Return and cut the Flame-Kin Zealot.

Jares- I'll keep on trying firestorm in testing, but from what i saw in the GP, I never needed it/cast it. (I did have it in hand multiple times, but there were always better things to do with my mana. )

One interesting observation- Dredge is slowly becoming two different decks, with very slight variation between the two- The Combo Dredge deck, which aims to win as fast as possible, and the Attrition Dredge, which seeks to win through superior "card advantage" over the opponents. Am i wrong in making that statement?

I read the tournament report that you posted and read some of this thread, but I was wondering if you would post what you take out vs. each deck when you sideboard.

The few things I gathered were to bring in Faerie Macabre vs. reanimator and snapcaster + surgical extraction decks, don't side out lion's eye diamond and bring in chain of vapors vs. leyline of the void.