All B/R update speculation.

[(nameless one)]

[trolling (nameless one)]


I still think Jar is totally bonkers, but it's not gonna happen anyway, since Wizards loves combo...
[/trolling]

I think it'll be nothing or something odd, nobody expected. But I really hope they don't unban Mindtwist, I dislike the card too much, even though it is definitely save to unban.

No one expected Metalworker and Time Spiral to be unbanned and they got unbanned.

[Mr. Safety]

No one expected Metalworker and Time Spiral to be unbanned and they got unbanned.

And they aren't dominating the format right now. Grim Monolith, ditto. It isn't even really seeing a lot of play, let alone finding its way into top 8 decks.

[DrHealex]

While metalworker is extremely powerful, it is in the end a fragile creature in an inconsistent deck.
Time Spiral is just as powerful as it once was and should still be banned.
I think Portal Cards should be re-banned as well... but that is more about their extreme inaccessabilty.

[I am the brainwasher]

I don't think that any card that is part or an enabler in a Combo-deck will come off the list soon. As far as Wizards estimate Legacy, they will try to fix the lack of pure Aggro-decks with bannings (unbannings could not happen here, luckily this isn't modern where cards like Nacatl are on the list...) or new printings instead.
I would love to see a comeback of Aggro-ish decks without hurting the existing decks/archetypes too badly, which is not an easy task right now.
As much as I like Legacy, right now it really comes down to either playing a extremely consitent/fast combo-deck, blue Aggro-control or GW(x) Maverick.
Some player's were always begging for a "more clear" and "defined meta" in this format (which I think is nonsense), but now as the best way to go is somewhat clear, the format's former "identity crisis" warped into something that doesn't feel as diverse and fun as it used to be.
I still think that some decks are heavily underplayed (Zoo, Rock, Death&Taxes for example) and people are somewhat lazy nowadays (the internet really is the innovater's curse and the tuner's blessing), but regardless, Legacy is moving in a direction that I feel very uncomfortable with in the last time.

[Amon Amarth]

I'd like them to unban a bunch of shit. At least it would feel like an Eternal format instead of... whatever the boring fuck it is now. But nothing will happen. Yawn.

[Dark Ritual]

Well that's fantastic, because most of the cards on the ban list have been part of some degenerate combo that got them banned sans mind twist, black vise, and land tax to an extent (scroll tax is a combo, but it isn't an instantly kill you combo rather it's just a 2 card engine.) As for no combo cards coming off the list, most of the cards that have been unbanned have in the past been apart of some degenerate combo like metalworker just made mass amounts of mana that you could do lots of things with, time spiral abused the fuck out of tolarian academy, dream halls in the old days just drew its whole deck with cards like concentrate and ancestral memories to just pull off a combo, mask was used with dreadnought to make cheap 12/12's, replenish was an engine in its own deck where you looted excessively and then just replenished everything back as well as being good in enchantress.

Time spiral is not a banworthy card, the combo is completely fine when it can't reliably go off before turn 4 that is pretty fair. Sure it's resilient to blue and such but that's because it can set up for several turns since blue has next to no clock if they lack stoneforge mystic -> batterskull.

Also, rebanning portal cards would cause mass outrage as the people who just dropped $150+ on a copy of grim tutor or worse imperial seal would be outraged. Accessibility of a card shouldn't determine whether its banned or not, maybe that's how legacy used to be upon inception but things work differently now. With candelabra running at 600+ a playset, any argument concerning card availability shouldn't be valid when it comes to the B&R list in legacy. It also sets a dangerous precedent to ban cards when they get excessively expensive as that's where legacy is headed with the reserved list dual lands will only go up and up and if the dual lands get banned, I'm done with legacy. Period. Because at that point candelabra would also likely be banned, LED might eventually get banned for something other than power level, etc. etc. there's no reason to ban a card based on monetary cost.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Unban Mind's Desire please

[Gheizen64]

No one expected Metalworker and Time Spiral to be unbanned and they got unbanned.

Spiral maybe was considered a bit risky, but no one thought Worker was too good to be unbanned or anything (being a 3cmc creature with no protection that has to untap). Monolith was considered much more dangerous than Worker, and it wasn't actually considered good.
I thought Worker and monolith would have been played in some T2 decks and that's that. With no moxen or workshop artifact decks/Stacks/MUD are just too inconsistent in a format with force, daze, stp, pridemage etc...

[DrHealex]

Bah, portal is an exception to the rule. Portal sets were produced with the intent of never being legal in constructed formats, much like unhinged and unglued. WHY they changed their stance on that matter like 8 or so years later is far beyond me. (whats next? unban unglued?)
The price thing is a pretty pointless argument, ie Jace as the most recent example (in whatever format). Besides... they would feel just the same if they were reprinted anyways. Expensive powerful cards have certainly been banned before and it will happen again. (the most expensive portal cards are tutors... imagine that..)

If portal were gone tomarrow, would legacy as a whole care? most likely not, since it would have little impact on the format.

[Dark Ritual]

It still unnecessarily lowers the amount of cards in the card pool. Are there any broken cards in Portal 1, 2, or 3 or starter 1999? The most broken card is imperial seal, and it's banned. Grim tutor is perfectly fair. And the sets are like normal magic sets, just dumbed down a bit especially with how they worded some of the cards at the time. You can't tell me those cards weren't designed with gameplay in mind, since all magic cards are designed with gameplay in mind except those with silver borders (urza's hot tub, little girl, city of ass, all those weren't meant for sanctioned play.) The same can't be said for starter and portal cards, sure P3K cards were a little wonky since horsemanship was in that set but portal's 1 and 2 were filled with very reasonable cards.

Although it WOULD impact the format if portal and starter 1999 cards were banned on a mass scale. No grim tutor? Legacy has a card pool of under 250 cards all things considered because a lot of the cards WotC designs nowadays aren't strong enough to be played in legacy. Getting 5 legacy playable cards in one set is a large number and 10 is unheard of.

Please. Give me mind's desire, I would love to abuse that card, unban that and gush and the format should be all kinds of fun but really, I'm still wishing land tax, earthcraft, mind twist, and black vise would come off the list. All those cards are perfectly reasonable cards to come off, unfortunately WotC doesn't unban cards unless they ban a card typically due to the throwing us a bone philosophy. Sorry, we banned SFM, but here, have this earthcraft card to play around with.

[joemauer]

I remember Time Spiral was unbanned with SotF banning, but what about Metalworker and Grim Monolith? One was unbanned with Mystical Tutor right? The other was unbanned out of the blue? I honestly don't know for sure, but WotC doesn't always give as new card while taking one from us right?

Anyway, I am still waiting for Mind Twist. Don't know why it is still on the banned list. Maybe WotC knows something about that card that we don't.

[Windux]

Ever got Hymn'ed Turn 2 and Turn 3? It really sucks and Mind Twist would this make possible more often.
i don't know which deck want to play 4 Hymns + X Mind Twist but the players surely would make a good deck out of it. And Mind Twist gets better every turn.
Don't come with Mind Shatter, it costs ONE MORE.

[I am the brainwasher]

Anyway, I am still waiting for Mind Twist. Don't know why it is still on the banned list. Maybe WotC knows something about that card that we don't.

Seriously?
That whole Mind Twist unbanning thing is one of the most stupid things that circulate in threads for way too long.
Mind Twist is awfully broken, obviously in blue-based control-decks and I truly wish that every player who claims for its unbanning gets his first few spells handled via removal and countermagic and gets his butt kicked out of the atmoshpere with the following Mind Twist for 2/3 till they are literally forced to understand what this card means for Legacy.
When a card that it's worth splashing for (which is ridiculously easy for a single black mana) it is Mind Twist and the result would be Control decks fightning over the resolution of Mind Twists(sss) all day long and 1st/2nd turn kil combo decks, which would be tier 2 in comparison at best.
I am not getting it, really. Who are those players that beg for this card to make a comeback? I don't know how long it takes to people fully understand that Mind Twist is one of the best blue (or better non-green/red/white/black) cards in existence.
It is just a foolish illusion that this card would only be half as good outside of control and the format would end up in a desastrous position I beg it never falls into.
Never, ever will this card be unbanned and I am so thankful that it doesn't pollute the format I love playing.

[Dia_Bot]

seriously?
That whole mind twist unbanning thing is one of the most stupid things that circulate in threads for way too long.
Mind twist is awfully broken, obviously in blue-based control-decks and i truly wish that every player who claims for its unbanning gets his first few spells handled via removal and countermagic and gets his butt kicked out of the atmoshpere with the following mind twist for 2/3 till they are literally forced to understand what this card means for legacy.
When a card that it's worth splashing for (which is ridiculously easy for a single black mana) it is mind twist and the result would be control decks fightning over the resolution of mind twists(sss) all day long and 1st/2nd turn kil combo decks, which would be tier 2 in comparison at best.
I am not getting it, really. Who are those players that beg for this card to make a comeback? I don't know how long it takes to people fully understand that mind twist is one of the best blue (or better non-green/red/white/black) cards in existence.
It is just a foolish illusion that this card would only be half as good outside of control and the format would end up in a desastrous position i beg it never falls into.
Never, ever will this card be unbanned and i am so thankful that it doesn't pollute the format i love playing.

+1

[Gheizen64]

Seriously?
That whole Mind Twist unbanning thing is one of the most stupid things that circulate in threads for way too long.
Mind Twist is awfully broken, obviously in blue-based control-decks and I truly wish that every player who claims for its unbanning gets his first few spells handled via removal and countermagic and gets his butt kicked out of the atmoshpere with the following Mind Twist for 2/3 till they are literally forced to understand what this card means for Legacy.
When a card that it's worth splashing for (which is ridiculously easy for a single black mana) it is Mind Twist and the result would be Control decks fightning over the resolution of Mind Twists(sss) all day long and 1st/2nd turn kil combo decks, which would be tier 2 in comparison at best.
I am not getting it, really. Who are those players that beg for this card to make a comeback? I don't know how long it takes to people fully understand that Mind Twist is one of the best blue (or better non-green/red/white/black) cards in existence.
It is just a foolish illusion that this card would only be half as good outside of control and the format would end up in a desastrous position I beg it never falls into.
Never, ever will this card be unbanned and I am so thankful that it doesn't pollute the format I love playing.

Lol? Card is borderline playable if at all. Any planeswalker is far more devastating if resolving in a control mirror.
This argument of "it break control mirrors" is outdated since 2008 at least. After JTMS it's not even an argument anymore. Oh you twist me for 3 on T4? I played JTMS the turn before np. Against aggro, Wrath is ten times better. No one is waiting for you on T4 with his full hand, especially against control decks. This isn't keeper era.

And twist doesn't get progressively better in lategame, not in a format where the biggest bombs aren't card drawers but walkers and where the most successful aggro decks pack things like KotR and Ooze.

[I am the brainwasher]

Lol? Card is borderline playable if at all. Any planeswalker is far more devastating if resolving in a control mirror.
This argument of "it break control mirrors" is outdated since 2008 at least. After JTMS it's not even an argument anymore. Oh you twist me for 3 on T4? I played JTMS the turn before np. Against aggro, Wrath is ten times better. No one is waiting for you on T4 with his full hand, especially against control decks. This isn't keeper era.

And twist doesn't get progressively better in lategame, not in a format where the biggest bombs aren't card drawers but walkers and where the most successful aggro decks pack things like KotR and Ooze.

I spare me all of that "This is no personal offense" thing and come right down to why this is just false, because it seems you really don't have a clue what you are talking about (which is pretty ironical in terms of how long you are in touch with the format/game to know so much about the times of keeper and the game shifting to what is right now).
Trading a single card for the entire hand (which it it simply is after its resolution most of the time) is so overpowered COMBINED with the tools available these days that it would be just disgusting. It really is worth having the variance of not drawing the card against Aggro (what Aggro-decks btw...) from time to time in order to blow out decks completely with it in the majority of games.
I truly don't know if you misred my post that badly, but the scenario I was drawing in fiction was that the result of a unbanning would be a meta-game that would likeley be based upon control mirrors because other archetypes will suffer from Mind Twists impact horribly, not that it would dominate the nowadays existing mirrors of control-decks.
There is no need to "LOL/?/!" and throwing non-sense arguments of Planeswalkers beeing far superior and stuff randomly around here as long as you don't get the core of that whole argumentation, but it seems you missed quite a bit of the format you seem to know so good anyway, if you havent got that the whole thing shifted towards attrition wars (which are decided by cards producing natural card-advantage (like SFM), virtual card advantage (cutting the opponent off of mana temporarily, Mother of Runes) and Planeswalker generating card-advantage and/or Tempo).
I was willing to take the risk to draw your attention towards what this is all about while giving up some sort of politeness cause you basically tried to do the same (but simply failed by ignoring all sorts of deciding factors/half reading former posts) but this does not mean that I do not listen to people who are not speaking my mind.
I do understand that there are things out there that let people think what you were trying to say so clever, but I can not do more than disagree/explain why this just isn't correct (IMO).
I have pretty much of a gut-feeling that this won't come far anyway, but in the end the B/R list speaks for itself and I am glad that it conceded a point to me so far (and hope it will in the future).

[Gheizen64]

I spare me all of that "This is no personal offense" thing and come right down to why this is just false, because it seems you really don't have a clue what you are talking about (which is pretty ironical in terms of how long you are in touch with the format/game to know so much about the times of keeper and the game shifting to what is right now).
Trading a single card for the entire hand (which it it simply is after its resolution most of the time) is so overpowered COMBINED with the tools available these days that it would be just disgusting. It really is worth having the variance of not drawing the card against Aggro (what Aggro-decks btw...) from time to time in order to blow out decks completely with it in the majority of games.
I truly don't know if you misred my post that badly, but the scenario I was drawing in fiction was that the result of a unbanning would be a meta-game that would likeley be based upon control mirrors because other archetypes will suffer from Mind Twists impact horribly, not that it would dominate the nowadays existing mirrors of control-decks.
There is no need to "LOL/?/!" and throwing non-sense arguments of Planeswalkers beeing far superior and stuff randomly around here as long as you don't get the core of that whole argumentation, but it seems you missed quite a bit of the format you seem to know so good anyway, if you havent got that the whole thing shifted towards attrition wars (which are decided by cards producing natural card-advantage (like SFM), virtual card advantage (cutting the opponent off of mana temporarily, Mother of Runes) and Planeswalker generating card-advantage and/or Tempo).
I was willing to take the risk to draw your attention towards what this is all about while giving up some sort of politeness cause you basically tried to do the same (but simply failed by ignoring all sorts of deciding factors/half reading former posts) but this does not mean that I do not listen to people who are not speaking my mind.
I do understand that there are things out there that let people think what you were trying to say so clever, but I can not do more than disagree/explain why this just isn't correct (IMO).
I have pretty much of a gut-feeling that this won't come far anyway, but in the end the B/R list speaks for itself and I am glad that it conceded a point to me so far (and hope it will in the future).

Lol? Dude you're acting like Twist is Gush or Necro. Twist cost mana and doesn't even hit the most relevant ways to win attrition wars nowadays in legacy, namely Walkers, Creatures with shroud and Reliquary/Ooze . You can't hit relevant cards in time unless you play some form of accell. Decks based in bant would always land their bombs before you could cast Twist.

Against all the decks in the DTB, a resolved Liliana or Jace is almost always better. Those cards can affect the boards, while Twist can not. Those cards are all good topdecks, while twists is not. All those cards are good also with a bad board position, unlike Twist.

If Twist is ever unbanned, i will bet my sig saying "i suck horse ***** from dawn to dusk" that the card won't impact legacy significantly. Namely, i will bet we won't see more than 8 Mind Twist on Average (that's 3 deck in 8, since twist is almost never played as a 4-of) in the ten consequent T8 of 100+ person legacy tournaments from the day it's unbanned.

It's my impression that people have distorted memories of what old cards can actually do. Similar reactions were had when i proposed unbanning Vise. People screamed left and right the card was every kind of brokenzzz. Then i tested it, and the card performed even worse than i though it would.
If you want, we could argue with some mental gymnastic with some lists with Twist, but the card is much more general compared to things like Vise, Survival, Bargain, Oath or similar obscenities so the exercise is much more complicated in this case. There's a topic here made just for the occasion. And i guess Esperblade would be the best home for twist as a 2-3 of. Do u agree on this ? I can test some Esperblade lists against the DTB, i will post results on the Legacy Deckbuilding Challenge topic as soon as i have a bit of spare time.

[Michael Keller]

The problem people fail to realize in the comparison of Twist and Hymn is that Twist only requires a single Black mana to cast. The card is not as bad as people are claiming it to be, but it's certainly not great.

I think it's safe to remove it from the Banned List.

[joemauer]

The problem people fail to realize in the comparison of Twist and Hymn is that Twist only requires a single Black mana to cast. The card is not as bad as people are claiming it to be, but it's certainly not great.

I think it's safe to remove it from the Banned List.

It seems like it is the right power level for the current Legacy.

[Kich867]

The arguments about it's casting cost seem irrelevant. Hymn to Tourach, while it can't hit for 3 cards, it can hit for 2 for one less mana. It being double black is negligable, legacy is a colorless format for the most part in the sense that fetchlands and duals essentially remove any actual color requirement.

I would likely run Hymn over Mind Twist unless for some retarded reason one would want 8 hymn's.. There is a point where discard is rather useless..