[Deck] Goblins

[liamb]

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/deck.ph...5&iddeck=57356

interesting approach. Basicly WInstigators are Warchiefs. But low removal count (no bolts/tarfire) is something I don't like.

[ScatmanX]

Has anybody ever sideboarded in Thorn of Amethyst against UW Stoneblade?
How has it played out?

[jrw1985]

I'm playing a MonoR build right now and haven't really had many cards to side in for most of my MUs. With a few minor changes I'm going to have even less to bring in. Here's what I'm thinking for a maindeck:

4x Wasteland
2x Rishadan Port
9x Mountain
6x Fetchlands

4x Goblin Lackey
2x Warren Instigator
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
2x Siege-gang Commander

2x Gempalm Incinerator
2x Tuktuk Scrapper
1x Stingscourger
1x Mogg Fanatic
1X Goblin Sharpshooter

2x Goblin Warchief
3x Goblin Chieftain
1X Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
2x Goblin Piledriver


4x Aether Vial
2x Tarfire
2X Pyrokinesis

I've got 7 pieces of MD creature removal. I'm already maindecking Artifact and Token hate. Because of this I'm beginning to think a ridiculously anti-combo sideboard could be the way to go. Something like...

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst
2 Anarchy

Anarchy would be for Enchantress/Maverick. Basically every Storm Combo MU would get the following sided in:

4 Leyline of the Void
4 Leyline of Sanctity
3 Mindbreak Trap
1 Chalice of the Void
1 Thorn of Amethyst

I'm basically interested in seeing how Leyline of Sanctity does in protecting my hand while sandbagging a Mindbreak Trap, or giving me two turns to get Chalice or Thorn in play. Has anyone tried something like this? I'm also thinking Leyline of the Void could be Surgical Extraction since that's more playable alongside Leyline of Sanctity.

ScatmanX:
I've received ridicule before for suggesting playing Thorn against control decks (UW Stoneblade). I don't think it's a great line of play because 1) UW Stoneblade isn't often short on mana since they make all their early landdrops with cantrips, 2) SFM plays around Thorn anyway. If you've got time to test it, I'm open to having my mind changed.

[Davran]

Has anybody ever sideboarded in Thorn of Amethyst against UW Stoneblade?
How has it played out?

I run Thorn in my board as combo hate, but I've never thought to bring it in against U/W Blade decks. They'll have plenty of mana to counter our stuff by the time we can cast it, and it does very little against Stoneforge Mystic, Mishra's Factory and Vendilion Clique...which are the only real clock they present.

That said, it may be useful against Snapcaster Mage flashing back a counter of some sort (i.e. Spell Snare), but I think most U/W players side the Spell Snares out against us anyway.

[ScatmanX]

Thanks.
I tested some matches against Esper Blade, and Needle (or even Instigator) would be better every time.

Edit: Since I'm on the subject: How are you guys sideboarding against it? I know Blood Moon is awesome, but what else?
Edit 2: Testing is showing that not changing the deck at all is better than adding Needle/Surgical/Thorn here...

[BigBopper]

I like the idea of having a versaile MD and use up most of your sideboard slots for the combo MU. Vs. Most Aggro decks I usually don't need to board anyways. Playing Maverick Pyrokinesis can be good, but doesn't have to. Vs. bant Pyroblast is quite nice to get rid of Jace. I still believe pyrostatic pillar is a quite nice alternative to Thorn, at least vs. Storm.
Concerning Anarchy I like the idea to get rid of MoR, SFT and Elspeth at one time, while I think it's quite expensive. I could see Flash of Defiance as an alternative vs. Savannah based dacks, at least as long I don't splash black. And 2 unblocked strikes are usually enough to finish them. Maybe a split in the anarchy spots?
@jrw1985: why do you play fetches in your mono-red build. Do you think diluting your library is worth being a stifle target with all the can. thres h running around? (I'm aware of lackey, matron and ringleader being better stifle targets). In terms of ringleader I would argue that the chances of seeing a goblin increase with fewer land count, but every time you fetch, you might shuffle cards from the bottom of your library back up.

[ScatmanX]

Concerning Anarchy I like the idea to get rid of MoR, SFT and Elspeth at one time, while I think it's quite expensive. I could see Flash of Defiance as an alternative vs. Savannah based dacks, at least as long I don't splash black. And 2 unblocked strikes are usually enough to finish them. Maybe a split in the anarchy spots?

Sweet card against Mav. Too bad it does nothing against Enchantress, WStax, Humility, Progenitus, and many other cards... I prefer Anarchy flexibility. And costing 4 is not that much in a monored build, specially when you don't necessarily have to play it turn 4. And I'd snap keep a hand with 4 mountains + Anarchy against Maverick any day, whie with FoD you'd need some critical mass already on board for it to be usefull.

[Davran]

Thanks.
I tested some matches against Esper Blade, and Needle (or even Instigator) would be better every time.

Edit: Since I'm on the subject: How are you guys sideboarding against it? I know Blood Moon is awesome, but what else?
Edit 2: Testing is showing that not changing the deck at all is better than adding Needle/Surgical/Thorn here...

I was boarding in Blood Moon against U/W...but lately it has been pretty lack luster. I've come to the realization that they play enough counters to just straight up counter it, and they also run enough basics to pretty much negate its effectiveness. As much of a hoser as it is, I think I'm leaving the Blood Moons out of the board for now and running some Red Blasts instead.

I do bring in a third piece of artifact hate (Tinkerer at the moment)...but other than that I don't think there are any specific cards that really improve the match-up. Like I said above, I think I'm going to give Red Blast a try.

Our clock is certainly better than theirs, but they also have plenty of ways to stall our threats. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that Wrath of God is a card that they play, so there is no real reason to over commit to the board. Wastelands are fantastic here since Mishra's Factory is often their only blocker, especially if you can deal with Mystic right away. I also find that turn 1 Vial is always better than turn 1 Lackey. They have absolutely no way to deal with a resolved Vial and it lets you pull pretty far ahead pretty quickly.

[BigBopper]

I think it's even more versaile: assuming you have some sort of board, but you are stuck vs. blockers, while your opponent plays elspeth and other hard cards, go for an alphastrike with an unblocked piledriver (pro blue). Then you could use it vs. Mav, Bant, Txresh, BUG and even stoneblade. Cause Goyf, Mongoose and SFM can't block and Snapcaster and Delver are blue. Maybe I try it as a one of SB and see how it goes.

[wert]

Anarchy is also about the only out, short of Chaos Warp we have against some totally nasty enchantments that could shut us down. Absolute Law, Island Sanctuary, Moat, Humility, Stony Silence,Ghostly Prison,Solitary Confinement and COP Red. Those are not exactly uncommon sideboard cards.

I found Blood moon to be unhelpful against UW too, but super good against those tempo based decks, and affinity. Not too sure I would bring in the tinker because they generally only have 1 batterskull and 1 jitte.

I dropped REB from the sideboard in favour of goblins cards and the needle but took on 4 Thorn of Amethyst, it is not exactly golden but it delays a wide variety of decks from Show and Tell to Combo and Burn. I am still wondering if Chalice is worth it, I tried it a bit but I don't feel good with it.

I got caught out a few times Wrath of God, when I was going to win on the next attack....it hurts like hell. :D

[ScatmanX]

I was boarding in Blood Moon against U/W...but lately it has been pretty lack luster. I've come to the realization that they play enough counters to just straight up counter it, and they also run enough basics to pretty much negate its effectiveness. As much of a hoser as it is, I think I'm leaving the Blood Moons out of the board for now and running some Red Blasts instead.

I do bring in a third piece of artifact hate (Tinkerer at the moment)...but other than that I don't think there are any specific cards that really improve the match-up. Like I said above, I think I'm going to give Red Blast a try.

Our clock is certainly better than theirs, but they also have plenty of ways to stall our threats. The biggest thing to keep in mind is that Wrath of God is a card that they play, so there is no real reason to over commit to the board. Wastelands are fantastic here since Mishra's Factory is often their only blocker, especially if you can deal with Mystic right away. I also find that turn 1 Vial is always better than turn 1 Lackey. They have absolutely no way to deal with a resolved Vial and it lets you pull pretty far ahead pretty quickly.

My question was jus against Esper Blade, not UW.
I curently want to bring 3 cards in, but am not sure what to remove. Right now I'm thinking of 1 Instigator, 1 Gempalm, and the Kiki Jiki, but not sure about the last one.

[jrw1985]

@jrw1985: why do you play fetches in your mono-red build. Do you think diluting your library is worth being a stifle target with all the can. thres h running around? (I'm aware of lackey, matron and ringleader being better stifle targets). In terms of ringleader I would argue that the chances of seeing a goblin increase with fewer land count, but every time you fetch, you might shuffle cards from the bottom of your library back up.

I play fetches in an attempt to maximize Ringleader draws. Someday I'll make a spreadsheet to mathmetically show the effect of fetches on Ringleader draws. I'm pretty sure activating two fetches over the course of a game doesn't affect your topdecking in a significant way, but I think it does affect the quality of your Ringleader reveals (since the chance of drawing 1-less land per fetch is multiplied by 4). Anything that makes you more likely to draw 3 rather than 2 goblins off a ringleader is huge for the deck, since Ringleader is really the CA engine that makes everything else possible.

I don't think Stifle is a threat, since it's usually played in decks that are trying to land a T1 Delver (so Stifle is seldom open to kill a T1 fetch). I don't really run that many fetches, so I'll usually have a basic Mountain to lead with anyway if I'm on the draw, and if I'm on the play Stifle isn't a worry at all. Matron also shuffles up the library (and there's no way in hell I'm NOT casting a Matron to prevent lands on the bottom from getting shuffled up) so I see no additional drawback in running fetches.

[1337erhosen]

The only drawback you failed to mention was the life loss, which after 4 or 5 lands can be very significant in the face of an Insectile Abberation. Obviously you have to weigh the slight damage vs slight card advantage and there is no absolutely correct answer, so it comes down to personal preference in mono-red builds.

[fimo]

I feel like chalice of the void has been printed to help goblins against combo, I really don t understand why one should have in the sideboard thorn of Amethyst instead of chalice. I cannot think of any MU where I would prefer to have Thorn of Amethyst over chalice of the void... chalice stops things, thorn slows them down. Chalice can be played the first turn for 0 mana dodging discard, Thorn of Amethyst cannot.

@jrw1985: thinning the deck from lands also means not topdecking lands you might need. I hate when I stare at my ringleaders having only 2 or 3 lands on board after the opponent had an answer to my T1 lackey/vial. Playing 22 lands means getting the 4th land drop after 11 cards (5th turn). Playing 20 lands means getting it at the 6th turn. I wouldn t actually "concentrate" further the deck, I want to be able to cast ringleader no later than the 5th turn if plan A (lackey/vial) goes wrong. Otherwise I feel there is no way I can win the game.

[Avatara]

Chalice can be played the first turn for 0 mana dodging discard, Thorn of Amethyst cannot.

That's only partly true. When they are on the play, chances are they will strip it from your hand, before you get a chance to play it. CotV is not a Leyline.

[fimo]

That's only partly true. When they are on the play, chances are they will strip it from your hand, before you get a chance to play it. CotV is not a Leyline.

Sure, my point is that thorn doesn t have the possibility of dodging discard in situations where chalice can. Giving that we are probably gonna loose G1 against those decks anyway, in G2 chalice is superior while G3 they are probably the same IMO. However, chalice is better against a wider proportion of non-storm decks like affinity, combo elves and burn.

[ScatmanX]

I cannot think of any MU where I would prefer to have Thorn of Amethyst over chalice of the void

Hive Mind.

[fimo]

Hive Mind.

you are right on that. But is that a good enough reason? I mean I see more storm/affinity/elves/burn than hive mind

[liamb]

you are right on that. But is that a good enough reason? I mean I see more storm/affinity/elves/burn than hive mind

I play chalice myself but wait a sec. Why would you side in chalice against affinity? Only to blank their 0 CMC spells? (which are total like 8?) They still can beat you with plating/champion

[ScatmanX]

you are right on that. But is that a good enough reason? I mean I see more storm/affinity/elves/burn than hive mind

With this I agree.
But would not bring it in against Affinity...

Edit: Has anyone tested Thorn against Canadian (RUG)?
How did it played out?