With LED, isn't Burning Inquiry better since it'll actually dredge with the artifact in play? Where WoC would do nothing if you needed to activate LED for discard.
As Kiwi said, I failed said trial. Tried the GP list -1 citadel +1 therapy main. I would find room for another Ichorid and possibly a 4 th study, but to be fair, I only played with 3 lootings (deck registration said 4, had to add a basic island that won a game :D)
so maybe that's why. Ichorid needs to be in there for sure. My board was the quadlazerboard with 2 ichorids in it.
I played like shit the entire day, but that was basicly the only reason I didn't do well. 12 lands where enough.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Isn't that somewhat contradictory?Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus
I'm going to hold my point. Playing decks with 12 spells that can only be cast off of 8 Lands in it isn't my way to play this game. I'll try to squeeze in as many lands as I can. But to everyone his own I guess.
I think Winds is better than Inquiry, though I don't see any reason to play any of those. We have Looting, Study, Breakthrough and Coliseum, why would you want another draw spell?
Taking the risk of running fewer Gold Lands is indeed a considerable risk, but it has paid-off for others, while others (like NecroYawgmoth) have experienced the drawbacks first-hand - even while running 14 lands. I'm probably the only one that has taken the extra mile to minimize that risk by running more than 14, but to each his own.
I personally like Burning Inquiry over Winds of Change for the following reasons:
- Burning Inquiry ensures that you'll draw 3 cards. In comparison, Winds of Change does not allow you to conveniently discard cards from your hand (before playing it; e.g. Dredgers) without affecting the potential draw power.
- Burning Inquiry is at least able to put cards into your graveyard instead of throwing it back in - Narcomoeba is the only card that benefits from shuffling cards back in.
- Because you're able to force your opponent to discard three cards, you're also able to give yourself three more clues for what to name when you play Cabal Therapy.
- Although largely unreliable, it can still serve as an emergency discard outlet in dire situations.
- I find that the potential draw power of Winds of Change can rarely be maximized - it will require you at least 5 cards in hand to draw at least 4 cards. Given that the opening hand consists of 7 cards, and that you will need a land to cast it (down to 6 in hand), and assuming that you'll want at least 1 dredger in the graveyard (down to 5 in hand) and a discard outlet to get it there (down to 4 in hand, which will result in drawing 3 cards), the odds are simply not in the card's favor - or at least, that's how I tested it.
- Burning Inquiry has the better illustration.
- In terms of disrupting your opponent, I personally like the mulligan effect of Winds of Change better (with Cabal Therapy aside), but this advantage isn't enough to have me choose it over Burning Inquiry.
I hope this helps.
Cheers,
jares
Report time! Played in my local store today, 5 rounds + cut for top 8.
I wanted to try my LED build, but my friend convinced me to go for LEDless. This was the list:
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
1 Firestorm
4 Narcomoeba
3 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
SB: 4 Chain of Vapor (expecting tons of reanimator)
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 3 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Ingot Chewer
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Purify the Grave
Round 1: TES
G1: I win the roll and start with my shiny PImp. He goes Volcanic Island into Ponder, drops a Lotus Petal and pass. I discard Stinkweed Imp in my upkeep, and he pops his Petal into Silence. My face goes poker, as I have 1 Careful Study and 1 Breakthough in my hand. I dump 7 to reach Threshold, attack for 2 and pass. He Ponders again and goes off via Ad Nauseam.
SB: +1 Iona -1 Firestorm
G2: I blind Therapy for LED, and he shows 2 Dark Ritual, Ad Nauseam and a fetchland. Ops.
0-1
Round 2: Death and Taxes
G1: Nothing new, I stomp his AEther Vial opening.
SB: +2 Firestorm +1 Ingot Chewer -1 PImp -1 Tribe -1 Dread Return
G2: I Firestorm his Mom, but my Stinkweed fails to find another Dredger. Double Wasteland followed by Thalia sealed the deal.
G3: Fast opening with T1 Tribe into Breakthrough. I make fast zombies after some Therapies. He was never into this game, despite topdecking a Relic of Progenitus
1-1
Round 3: Reanimator
G1: I build my board slowly after he FoWs my Careful Study in turn 2. Still, he has no Entomb, and his Careful Study bins nothing. At some point, he manages to bin Jin, but I already have lots of Zombies and Exhume brings a 8/8 Troll to the party. Lucky me.
SB: +4 Chain of Vapor +3 Faerie Macabre -4 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -1 PImp -1 Firestorm
G2: He goes T1 Entomb for Elesh but my Chain of Vapor gets it. I'm able to build 4 Tokens and a Tribe. He bins Elesh + Sphinx with Careful Study, but my Faerie Macabre hits it responding Exhume. I bring back an Ichorid and beat his face.
2-1
Round 4: Reanimator
G1: kept a slow hand, but wouldn't matter, he knows I'm on dredge and Entombs Elesh.
SB: +4 Chain of Vapor +3 Faerie Macabre -4 Breakthrough -1 Ichorid -1 PImp -1 Firestorm
G2: See G1
2-2
Round 5: Mono-B Pox
G1: This matchup is such a bye. Discard + Land Destruction is nothing against this deck. And his Liliana of the Veil is pretty dead, as well. I stomp him easily.
SB: +1 Ancient Grudge -1 Firestorm
G2: He opens with double Leyline of the Void. Ops.
SB: +4 Chain of Vapor -1 Ancient Grudge -1 PImp -1 Breakthrough -1 Darkblast
G3: He mulls to 4 and opens with no Leyline. I stomp him, despite having a slow hand
3-2
Top 8 breaks and I'm the 8th player on the ranking. Didn't matter tho. I had to drop to go to my angry GF house, damn she was raging.
Pros: Got my set of Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe and Careful Study foil, and 1 foil Ichorid. And LEDless is awesome. Didn't face any Surgical Extraction, but there were 2 Stoneblade in Top8, as well.
Cons: Couldn't play Top8 and food was damn expensive there.
That was pretty much it.
Let your Dredge 6 be: Narco, Narco, Narco, Bridge, Bridge, Dread Return
Fascinated of reading such a good primer!!
Dredge, LED Dredge, was the deck that, 2 years ago, put me in the 2nd national place of Legacy players ranking and i love it! In old threads i had variated friendly discussions with parcher about the deck and it sideboarding plans. It was another metagame and there was less hate cards. After that i focused on other tipes of decks and now i'm reconsidering my LED Dredge again. In my opinion one of the best deckin the format ever!
So, i'd like to add some comments or notes to the topic:
Faithless loothing is certainly an upgrade to dredge. It allows you to make pressure since turn 1 at the time you can flashback it with LED. This is cute. Moreover, FL allows you to dig for sideboard cards in games 2 and 3 which make your mulligans less commons in those games, this even more valuable. However the card has a BUT. Colour incompatibility is a real problem here. We run coliseum and breakthrough as bomb cards, formerly combined with deep analysis. All cards require blue for casting them. What happen when we have coliseum and LED on line? Consider that dredge is almost a “one land in play” deck. So you will crack LED for UUU, crack coliseum go for 3 cards and then what? No Deep Analysis will appear. This traumatized me for a while and arrived to the conclusion that running eternal witness is a good “trick” for exploding both cards depending on the circumstances. This is explained for the retrieve ability of this girl that allows you to get back breakthrough, LED, coliseum or whatever you need to go off using the UU remaining from the first LED. ;)
Off course if you have a rainbow land and LED on line and FL in hand you won’t hesitate about it, cast it and crack LED for RRR and go for it.
This is the list is achieved after this reasoning:
// Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
1 [FD] Eternal Witness
// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [DKA] Faithless Looting
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [ISD] Memory's Journey
It took out 1 Breakthrough because you can get it via FL in contrast with the FL less version which indeed needs to run a full set.
Memory’s Journey in the SB deserves testing in my opinion to get rid from that annoying double surgical extraction via snapcaster mage.
Finally, one question for you: Does Elesh Norn still worth in the side? I included him but in which games do you think he’s crucial.
Thanks you all,
GC.
Well, Elesh Norn still completely demolishes the mirror.
I am curious why you chose FKZ and exspecially Eternal Witness as targets. Do you really think the cute "trick" you described is worth running it over cards like Careful Study, which isn't in your list at all.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Well, i never liked the put all togheter list...CS demands cutting PImp or the DR targert...dont know if it worth....
So faithless looting is great and careful study is bad?
No way.
It's true that FL > CS but CS is still good. WhaT i'm saying that Havig:
4 P Imp + 4 FL + Witness + 3 Breakthrough is better than
4 CS + 4 FL + 4 Breakthrough
I'm curious. What are your considerations for saying that one combination is better than the other?
Kind Regards,
jares
It's great to see someone running 15 lands in LEDless.
I have a few inquiries for you:
- Was the damage from Tarnished Citadel ever an issue for you?
- How did it feel to run that many lands?
- How often did the singleton Darkblast become useful?
Cheers,
jares
With "my" combination you have a permanent discard effect turn after turn.
Imagine having CS instead of P Imp in hand: you draw 2, then discard 2 or 1 dredger depending on the situation. Next turn you'll dredge and if you have no additional discard outlet in hand that dredger will never go back to the yard. Off course you could dredged another one but not always happen. The difference is marginal but sometimes relevant. With FL is a bit different due to its flashback.
Is the inclusion of Eternal Witness absolutely necessary?
Cheers,
jares
It's healthy but no, you can run sun titan.
You really, really want to run Faithless Looting and Lion's Eye Diamond. I am not insinuating it is absolutely necessary, but the raw power it provides the deck is unparalleled in Legacy right now. Even Faithless Looting by itself is incredibly good as another Study effect. With LED, it's just pushed over the edge. You can skip running them by placing controlled discard outlets in your deck, which is fine, but really I'd much rather have more explosiveness to close the gap on those match-ups that were questionable to begin with, like Storm Combo. You close the gap big time with LED, which is actually really important.
Faithless Looting is the key spell here because it adds explosiveness and consistency to the deck at the same time, but LED is just incredibly attractive with it. If you guys are having difficulty running LED or are afraid to run it for varying reasons, let everyone know.
I currently only own 2 LEDs, is LED a 4 or none kind of card?
Because LED is a straight-up combo card with raw power, you should either max out at four or none at all. It's a card you build your deck around, so playing anything less than four really can be a little awkward. You really want to open-hand it too, so falling back on diminished percentages isn't really the way you want to go.
@Vandalize: Congratz on your finish.
I have a couple of questions to you.
- In Brazilian metagame, I usually prefer Firestorm over TTribe on the main deck. How was your impression of the 3-1 split? Would you change it?
-I am not sold to LED Dredge yet, do you think LEDless still has an edge? I mean, everybody is playing LED right now, but I really like playing 15 lands... what made you play LEDless over LED Dredge?
-In my last build, I played only 1 DR main deck, and add the 13 dredger. Do you think the second DR is worth main deck?
Are the Flayer-backers (over FKZ) wanting a third Dread Return in the maindeck or sideboard?
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