While Piledriver does allow for a lot of turn 3/4 kill options, the kiki-jiki running Instigator build has some solid turn 4's aswell. (Mostly, Instigator + Matron)Originally Posted by GoboLord
Some of the more obvious ones:
T1 - (hate?)
T2 Instigator
T3 - (hate?) Drop Matron, search for Kiki-Jiki, end of your opponents turn, copy matron, find Goblin Chieftain.
T4 Play and copy Chieftain, swing for lethal.
Required cards: Instigator + Matron
T1 - (hate?)
T2 Instigator
T3 - (hate?) Drop Chieftain + Siege-Gang Commander
T4 Swing for 15 + Tarfire/any other goblin for the kill
Required cards: Instigator + Chieftain + SGC + Tarfire/any other goblin
T1 Lackey
T2 - (hate?) Drop Instigator
T3 - (hate?) Drop Matron - Kiki
T4 Play and copy Chieftain, swing for lethal
Required cards: Lackey + Instigator + Matron
T1 Lackey
T2 - (hate?) Drop Instigator
T3 - (hate?) Drop Goblin Ringleader + Goblin Ringleader + Goblin Ringleader
T4 Drop Goblin Chieftain + play any other goblin/tarfire
Required cards: Lackey + Instigator + Ringleader + whatever 2 drops Ringleader comes up with.... Or Matron -> Kiki ofcourse...
T1 - (hate?)
T2 Instigator
T3 - (hate?) Drop SGC + SGC/Kiki
T4 Chieftain
Required cards: Instigator + SGC + SGC + Chieftain
T1 - (hate?)
T2 Instigator
T3 - (hate?) Drop Kiki + Chieftain
T4 Play chieftain if you didn't have it in hand on turn 3. Swing for lethal.
Required cards: Instigator + Kiki + Chieftain
T1 Lackey
T2 - (hate?) Drop Chieftain
T3 Play Instigator, Drop any 2 power goblin.
T4 Swing for the kill
Required cards: Lackey + Chieftain + Instigator + any 2 power goblin (or 1 power/tarfire if they fetched)
T1 Tarfire
T2 Instigator
T3 Ringleader + Ringleader + Chieftain
T4 Instigator or MWM or chieftain or any goblin + second tarfire and swing
Required cards: Instigator + Tarfire + a rich Ringleader
T1 Lackey
T2 - (Hate?) Drop Matron, find Matron
T3 Play Matron, find Kiki, drop Kiki, copy Matron, find Chieftain
T4 Play Chieftain, copy Chieftain
Required cards: Lackey + Matron, yes, apparently this kills on turn 4 aswell.
T1 -
T2 Instigator
T3 Ringleader + Chieftain + Chieftain
T4 Any goblin or tarfire
Required cards: Ringleader (more chance on double chieftain ofcourse) + Instigator + Double Chieftain + any goblin/tarfire
Ofcourse there are countless t4 kill options, but these are just a few easier ones to show that Instigator builds have some speed against foes without lackey-defense.
The question would be, with hate, is t4 fast enough?
That said, Piledriver still opens up stuff like:
T1 -
T2 Piledriver
T3 Chieftain
T4 Piledriver
T1 Lackey
T2 Piledriver + SGC
T3 win
T1 Lackey
T2 Hate? + Piledriver
T3 Chieftain
T4 Swing again
T1 Lackey
T2 Piledriver + Piledriver
T3 Swing for 11
T4 Swing again
And countless more... so...there's much to be said for both sides.
Don't know if this is of any help, but it might... I just love doing these..
@Nameless Two: Interesting caltulations thank you. I think that the most relevant thing is how many cards you need in your opening hand to make a fast kill. As far as I see only your first calculation requires 2 cards and that includes WI... Also, it seems that WI kills leaves more space for hate cards while piledrivers builds would require hate that doesn t cost mana.
Anyway, if one runs a full playset of piledrivers + a playset of WI such a fast kill would be pretty much every opening hand I guess. On the other hand, that would require a cut on the removal package. Increasing the relative number of pyrokinesis MD could balance out the lower overall count of removals though.
@wert: I agree with you
ok, ive done alot of playtesting against ANT this evening. The best sideboard plan was 4 White leylines+ 3 Surgical Extraction + 2 Pyroblast. The problem is, you absolutely need the white leyline. It protects you against Tendrils, but also more important against discard. With Extractions its very easy to disrupt their PiF or IGG loop. Pyroblast can counter Chains of Vapor or Echoing Truth.
Im not sure yet, if this is the best plan for the goblins sideboard, because i really hate the randomness of the leyline.
Tomorrow I will test the 8 Leyline 3 Serum Powder Setup
@wert (and others with a less combohateful SB)
I also agree. Last tournament I had a hard time facing Maverick 3 times! (2 Punishing)
What do you like to board against Maverick (assuming monored build)? Pyrokinesis, artifacthate, Anarchy? Or even Surgical? I always have the feeling that I dilute my build by siding in too much. Should we settle with 2 artifacthate and an Anarchy to take care of equipments and everything permanent with little suns in the top right corner?
THANKS!
If your opponent is not runing Stoneforge (like the ones running Thalia are doing), then just 1 Tuktuk should be enough for the 2 Jitte without tutors they have.
Have anyone tested Relic or Surgical against P.Fire Maverick? How was it?
I may be inclined to use Relic, because it works better with Tarfire/Knesis...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I had used relics, needles, thorn of amethyst, boartusk liege against punishing. Works like a charm. With the right sideboard, punishing is in fact a easier matchup. Their mana base is rather suspect and wastelands can ruin their day.
Well theres that Lackey + Matron hand that only requires two cards too..(and 3 lands)
I didn't calculate any Vial turn 4 hands, since its mostly sided out I figured?
Oh and Markbris, it says your video's too long.
Btw with Boartusk Liege from the board if you run it, you can even go
T1 Lackey
T2 Hate - Drop Liege
T3 Chieftain
T4 Swing again
required cards: Lackey, Liege, Chieftain
Or
T1 -
T2 Instigator
T3 Liege + SGC
T4 Swing + Sac for lethal
required cards: Instigator, Liege, SGC
Most of the t4 kills I calculated that need just a few cards tend to use Chieftain btw. Although many times fetched off a ringleader/matron will do.
Liege allows for other options
T1 Lackey
T2 Hate + SGC
T3 Hate + Drop Liege
T4 Swing
Req cards: Lackey + SGC + Liege
T1 Lackey
T2 Hate + Liege
T3 Hate + Drop Kiki
T4 Swing
Req cards: Lackey + Liege + Kiki-Jiki
T1 -
T2 Instigator
T3 Hate + Drop Liege + Liege
T4 Either a tarfire or a fetch on the opposing side is by now lethal.
Req cards: Instigator + Liege + Liege + Tarfire/enemy fetch (or pretty much any goblin played on turn 3)
I guess most hands with a lackey or instigator will do the trick by turn 4. Hands with lackey or instigator + matron can certainly do this when not opposed.
If we ever work out a somewhat definite goblin list we might be able to throw in some actual statistics.
Also one final bit:
T1 Lackey
T2 Drop Kiki-Jiki
T3 Drop Matron, Drop Chieftain
T4 Swing for Lethal
This only needs 1 land + Lackey + Kiki + Matron.
Ok so I'm reposting them game by game. G1 is up now and I'll have the other two up shortly.
http://www.youtube.com/user/brisl003?feature=mhee
Piloted my classic list today to finals in 43ppl tournament today:
4 wasteland
4 wooded foothills
4 scalding tarn
3 rishadan port
2 taiga
5 mountain
4 aether vial
4 goblin lackey
3 mogg fanatic
4 mogg war marhall
3 goblin piledriver
1 tin street hooligan
1 stingscourger
4 goblin matron
4 goblin chieftain ´
4 gempalm incinerator
1 goblin sharpshooter
4 goblin ringleader
1 siege-gang commander
Sb:
1 tuktuk scrapper
2 pyroblast
2 krosan grip
3 pyrokinesis
2 blood moon
2 relic of progenitus
3 leyline of the void
R1 UW blade:
I had nuts both games, every ringleader fetched me 3-4 goblins…
2-0
R2 Sneaky show:
G1 I have vial and port, he intuiton at end of turn for 3 emrakul and SnT in his turn, I show him matron for stingcourger and vial him in play. He then misplays petal in his turn which met Hooligan.
G2 Early lackey puts him under pressure, he firespouts at 8 life. I manage to somehow rebuild my army bud sneakattack me at 3 life.
G3 He struggle to find second piece of combo, while lackey, driver a couple of tokens kill him.
2-1
R3 Uwr thopter:
Opponent predicted field to be mostly aggro, so after WoG, firespout a couple of stp and ensnaring bridge i scope both games.
0-2
R4 UR delver:
G1 he starts with delver, fanatic eat him, next turn vial. He tries to burn me, but eventually tries to burn my goblins. I end game with 11 life…
G2 he starts again with delver, and me again with fanatic but he fow! Delver flips attack me down 11 or so. Then guide and grim join his forces. Grim mets with fanatic, guide with mwm and delver got gempalmend. Next turn ringleader , gg
2-0
R5 Dredge:
G1 keep reasonable hand with fanatic, driver, wasteland etc…opponent had nuts, t3 kill
G2 again hand with fanatic and wasteland, opponent breaktrought half of his library into his graveyard, but no moebas, at this time, out of nowhere I topdeck relic and he scoop(nothing in hand, no lands).
G3 Keep in my opiniom sweet hand: Leyline, relic, lackey, vial, etc but no land. At this point i didnt knew that my opponent will mulligan down to 4. My first land comes probably six turn later while I’m under heavy pressure of 3 putrid imps, golgari thug and moeba. Drop vial, next turn fanatic and mwm, kill him few turns later…
2-1
R6 Dredge:
ID
Top8 teammate with Punishing mawerick:
G1 I keep hand with vial, then have little struggle with mom, but 2 wastelands and ringleader into 3 gempalms made this game easy win.
G2 This was most epic game whole day. My 7 were 2 vial, ringleader, mwm+ lands. He drops mom again, noble and qasali, but he refuses to destroy my vial for 2 turns, because I had two of them(big mistake). Eventually my ringleader get into play showing 2 ringleader and chieftain. Next ringleader brought me driver, tuktuk and lackey. But opponent doesn‘t lag behind, and acomplish punishing fire combo with 10/10 knight.This game end about 20 minutes later in crazy series of topdeck matron for sgc and gempalm->ringleader->stingscouger on his knight. This game required all ringleaders, mwm, gempalms and fanatic in my deck, wow ended with like 20 or so cards in library.
2-0
Top 4 dredge:
G1 I really dont know how I do it, but hand was: 2 fanatic, vial, wasteland, ringleader, mwm etc. Wasteland trade with his city of brass, so he dredges only once each turn. Fanatics take care of two bridges. Ringleader brought me mwm, lackey and gempalm. In the end about 4 tokens and ringleader end his life.
G2 Keep average 7 with Relic on draw->fanatic lol, play him. He did some crazy stuff with 3 careful studies (or looting via led) in one turn, but struggle to find dredger in first two of those. He decides not to therapy me. Second turn relic sealed the game…
2-0
Then we split in final(death and taxes). All in all, it looks I had more lack than intelligence. Fanatic, as always, proved his strenght in my metagame( ah dont forget about mwm). Compared to my little experiment last week 2-4 this version felt lot stronger( changes:-1 mwm -1driver -1fanatic +2instigator +1 kiki-jiki)
Is there a nuts SB card against esper stoneblade? something nuts like cursed totem for maverick. I don t really know what to side against them. I used to side REB against UW stoneforge but I feel like it lost value with the black splash. What do you side in against esper blade?
I sometimes had problems against Geist of Saint Traft, especially when they go like T3 geist, T4 elspeth - attack for 9 flying... Any trick to deal with it? Is piledriver is the biggest help here?
There is a topic I had been thinking of for sometime. There is a number of goblin cards that are not errata as Goblin. I wonder if there is a chance of that happening.
The whole list as far as I can find.
Goblin Burrows
Mogg Hollows
Auntie's Hovel
Brightstone Ritual
Goblin Grenade
Mogg Cannon
Kuldotha Rebirth
Goblin War Strike
Quest for the Goblin Lord
Goblin Bomb
Dragon Fodder
Goblin Bombardment
Goblin Festival
Goblin Kites
Goblin Lore
Goblin War Paint
Rise of the Hobgoblins
Mogg Alarm
Goblin Assault
Dralnu's Crusade
Goblin Caves
Goblin Shrine
Goblin Offensive
Mogg Salvage
Goblin Trenches
Goblin War Cry
Goblin War Drums
Goblin Warrens
Empty the Warrens
Goblin Cannon
Goblin Scouts
Mogg Infestation
Goblin Charbelcher
Did I miss any cards? Which of these cards would you like to see goblinised?
For me, I think Goblin Bombardment, Goblin War Strike, Goblin Warrens, Goblin War Drums, Brightstone Ritual, Dralnu's Crusade would open new lines of play. Goblin lands might not be actually a good thing thou.
Another interesting card that is not goblin but might be good is Moggcatcher
Anarchy? In black, Warren Weirding.
Yeah, if they have T3 Geist T4 Elspeth and a bunch of removal, you're in trouble...
warren weirding is pretty nice actually, you can answer their geist with matron for weirding.
Blood Moon might be good too...
Also, wert, I'd like Goblin Grenade.
Yuri, thanks for the report... Keeping 0 land hands? Wow you are brave, counting on your luck like that.
Goblin Bombardment
Mogg Salvage
Bombardement would be sweet with full set of MWMs. And if it was a tribal goblin enchantment, it would push goblin to the top. Mogg Salvage with its CC as a goblin would also be nice to fight those UW/Esper Blades.
Goblin War Drums - well we allready have Caterwauling Boggart
I was goldfishing against Ad Nauseum/Past in Flames/ Tendrils this weekend and found that 4 Chalice 4 Mindbreak Trap was decent, but I never felt like it gave the edge. That MU was pretty much 50/50, and I'm nopt a good storm player so I'm sure I was making tons of mistakes against myself. I think if I sided in Leyline of the Void my chances would be improved, since PiF and Cabal Ritual provided many of the winning lines of play. Chalice @ 0 was amazing against them though. On the play, a Chalice at 0 just turns off their LEDs and stops their tutoring shenanigans. I'll try playtesting tonight with Leylines.
Testing against High Tide a Chalice @ 1 is GG. There is nothing that deck can do under a Chalice until it bounces it, which usually requires 2 turns worth of spells (Cunning wish + Bounce). Also, their clock is slow enough that you can always just try to race them with an aggressive hand.
I tested 8 Leylines 2 Serum Powder against ANT last night. I did really like the powder, it helped getting the white leyline on the opening without mullingan into oblivion. Both Leylines really helped in this matchup, but theyre still clunky and dilute the aggro plan. I think 4 Extractions are much more useful than the black leylines.
Same against TES. Black Leyline is useless here and only white leyline doesnt slow this deck significantly.
My conclusion, Leylines are crap (as i expected) and Serum Powder is a nice sb option if you absolutely need hate in your opening hand. (obv)
Im going back to Chalice+Extraction+Pyroblast
We discussed it a lot after game, here are my arguments: If he had chain of vapor/any other way to get rid of lelyine I would probably lose anyway, but if I draw a land I will have access to second hate(relic) and vial.
Imo you did right.
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
This is the list I'm going to be running for the next couple weeks and probably at the SCG here in Birmingham on the 22nd. I feel like its got game against all of the DTB and thats all I can ask for really at this point. I feel like I'm retaining most of the speed/resiliency of the deck but just trying to butcher the aggro matchups with removal.
Reanimator: 3 Weirdings MD plus Leylines and another weirding in the SB
Burn: Race time plus chalice for help
Maverick: My plan here is to grind em out with weirdings/gempalm/bolt/perish after SB and just do them in with Card advantage and removal.
Blade/Esperblade: Plan is boatloads of removal to keep them off batterskull etc and overwhelm. Sharpshooter in the main plus 1 tuktuk main and 1 sb.
RUG Tempo: See Maverick.
Nic Fit: meh nothing for this, don't really care.
Bant: I wish I could play this all day.
Sneak Attack: Racing time with weirdings to help out.
Dredge: Leyline or bust.
Storm: Chalice plus a lil help with mindbreak.
Mana:
6 Mountain
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Arid Mesa
1 Swamp
1 Badlands
Core
4 Goblin Chieftain/Warchief - 2 Each
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Ringleader
4 Goblin Matron
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Mogg War Marshal
3 Goblin Piledriver
2 Siege Gang Commander
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
4 Aether Vial
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Warren Weirding
Sideboard:
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Perish
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Warren Weirding
There's no reason for that 4th Weirdings ther not be a Stingscourger. 1 Provide a lot more flexibility, while playing almost like Weirding.
Don't really like the decklist, but we all have our preferences...
Super Bizarros Team. Beating everything with small green dudes and big waves.
I'm going back and forth on stingscourger. What do you see as problems with my decklist?
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