All B/R update speculation.

[Di]

I think it could fit into the UB Mucktide build with success. You'd be going off turn 3 rather consistently with access to both blue mana and 8 land dependent rituals that can accelerate you into Mind's Desire. Combined with a Snapcaster/Snap engine, I can see the deck playing Mind's Desire effectively. Also, the deck often plays 4 Tendrils, though that number might drop after you add Desires. I think you won't have too much trouble finding a win condition after Desire. As long as you hit another Desires, a Tendrils, or a Turnabout/Snap you should be able to continue the spell chain. I'm gonna start testing a list just for kicks.

My point was really more that I don't think a Mind's Desire.dec could do anything that TES, ANT, Doomsday, or High Tide can't. Its a strong storm engine for sure but is speaking of a list that doesn't exist really that strong an argument when we don't know yet if it will be any stronger than the other storm decks? What niche will it fill? Doomsday can beat Counterbalance with piles like the SnT package. TES and ANT can smash aggro control with Chants and Duress effects. High Tide can play Force.

So if you're conceeding that the deck should be UB, why bother playing a tide-based version instead of Rituals, which are faster, much better off Mind's Desire, and don't require the deck to run weak cards to support it like Snap and Snapcaster Mage? Not to mention, any High Tides or Bubbling Mucks flipped over Desire don't really help you here as you still require an untap effect to get any use out of them. They're essentially dead cards without them. It's a hell of a lot easier and consistent post-Desire to run a Ritual list instead.

I agree that I don't think it's the busted card it was once believed to be, but I do think bringing it into the format would warp the format far into combo's corner. Making Tendrils decks better than they currently are isn't really what we need. But I guess it'd make Flusterstorm that much better.

[Dark Ritual]

They should just unban desire AND academy, I'm sure there would be a sweet deck running 4 of both cards to great effect that would completely wreck face.

Combo really doesn't have that big of a presence in legacy ATM, if anything it needs a slight boost and mind's desire would give it that boost. I know I would run the card in high tide combo as well, definitely a 4 of there alongside time spiral as a 4 of would be pretty good. I'd probably completely cut meditate at that point and probably shave a cunning wish or a cantrip off the list as well, as having 8 engines maindeck is sick when both are very good upon resolution.

Also, didn't the DCI errata mind's desire so that you didn't have to shuffle each copy or something unless you played another card or something? I know I played in a proxy vintage event with desire at one point and was told to just flip over cards from the top without shuffling unless I played some card like brainstorm or vamp tutor with a copy of mind's desire on the stack, then again that wasn't a DCI sanctioned match.

But the omnipresent problem of desire remains, if you flip over a desire with a desire you typically win the game barring extreme circumstances. In vintage the card is fair because only 1 copy is allowed, however in legacy you could play a whopping 4 copies.

Flusterstorm would probably spike a lot pricewise the moment people realized it could combat desire or back it up as a protection spell in a desire deck. Spiral desire would be an even more resilient high tide combo deck though, and spiral tide right now is a serious contender for one of the top decks in legacy in the right hands. The only thing holding the deck back right now is the lack of candelabra's, as many people can't find/afford a set. At GP Indy late into day 2, I looked around all the dealer tables and only found 4 copies total at booths other than SCG, and I'm not sure if SCG had any. Heck right now on SCG they only have 13 total copies, enough for 4 more high tide decks if they choose to play 3 like Di. The card is just nigh impossible to find, especially in areas where legacy isn't popular good luck finding one candelabra let alone 3.

[Vacrix]

So if you're conceeding that the deck should be UB, why bother playing a tide-based version instead of Rituals, which are faster, much better off Mind's Desire, and don't require the deck to run weak cards to support it like Snap and Snapcaster Mage? Not to mention, any High Tides or Bubbling Mucks flipped over Desire don't really help you here as you still require an untap effect to get any use out of them. They're essentially dead cards without them. It's a hell of a lot easier and consistent post-Desire to run a Ritual list instead.

I agree that I don't think it's the busted card it was once believed to be, but I do think bringing it into the format would warp the format far into combo's corner. Making Tendrils decks better than they currently are isn't really what we need. But I guess it'd make Flusterstorm that much better.

Certainly the deck will be UB.. however, I can't see the deck hitting 4UU consistently before turn 3 without LED and if you play LED then you basically need to use cantrips to Brainstorm into it post-LED, and that means you won't be protecting the combo with Force of Will. Because Mind's Desire costs 6 to play, you are going to have to invest quite a lot more mana, and therefore cards in hand, in order to even cast it, meaning its going to be harder to protect than Ad Nauseam. If you play a Dark Ritual build that forgos land drops, what rituals would you run? Dark Ritual clearly.. but then Cabal Ritual only adds a net of B because you aren't going to consistently have threshold when you go off. Culling the Weak? Perhaps.. A net of 4 black opens up your Lotus Petals and lands to produce the UU. I just don't know if Legacy currently has the resources to support a killer deck that functions primarily around Mind's Desire. I see it as a prime Burning Wish target if you are sitting on two LED's but thats all.

[(nameless one)]

Alright, since we're talking Storm-based combo here, I want to bring up something:

Memory Jar.

No I am not trolling. How can Storm-based combo break the Jar? I mean back when Grim Monolith was banned, there was so much theorycrafting done to prove how broken Grim Monolith can be in storm-based combo decks. So far, it's been about two years since the introduction of Grim Monolith and all that theorycrafting did not yield any results.

I know ramp is different from draw but how bad can it be? For five mana and about 14 life, you can draw half your library with Ad Nauseum. For 6 mana, you can have a fresh hand and fresh board with Time Spiral.

The argument with Mind's Desire is debatable.

But Memory Jar, for 5 mana, you can have a fresh hand (though your lands don't untap). Your opponents also have a fresh hand. Time Spiral faces the same issue but Spiral Tide decks run permission to protect itself from opponents that also drew answers from that fresh seven that they have.

Arguably, the same can be done with Memory Jar in terms of having permission as its protection, or even chant effects just like TES and similar variants.

I think the only advantage I see is that it's not a right away effect, rather you can save your Jar when you really need it.

Personally, I don't play storm-based combo deck. I can't even play Glimpse Elves in an optimal way. So to Brian Cook (TES), Di (Spiral Tide), Vacrix (Spanish Inquisition), emidlns (DDFT) and AriLax (AnT); how would you break Jar in the respective storm-based decks you guys are running?

Or is Jar just that broken that even non-storm based decks will run it?

[Amon Amarth]

I've always wondered if Jar would be good in MUD-esque decks. It would be pretty crazy with Welder.

[Vacrix]

Memory Jar.

How can Storm-based combo break the Jar?

So to Brian Cook (TES), Di (Spiral Tide), Vacrix (Spanish Inquisition), emidlns (DDFT) and AriLax (AnT); how would you break Jar in the respective storm-based decks you guys are running?

Or is Jar just that broken that even non-storm based decks will run it?

In SI variants, Memory Jar would be a better storm engine than Diminishing Returns, Slithermuse, or Ad Nauseam, the blue engines having difficult color requirements while AdN requires a lower avg CC than SI can afford. I'd certainly throw it into PSI and see how it performs, likely in the place of a few Goblin Charbelcher. I can get back to you on that actually but my guess is its going to be pretty fucking good. The fact that you can start comboing without paying any life is huge and it has lax color requirements so you can pay for it with Elvish Spirit Guides and Summoner's Pacts. If you can chain one into Infernal Tutor -->Tendrils of Agony, then you don't even need to pay any life and can go off later than other storm combo that need to use their life total as a resource to get a kill.

It's such a good storm engine though, that I'd imagine it would have its own build, likely with Enlightened Tutor since you can also fetch Lion's Eye Diamond with it, setting up a pretty consistent turn 2 combo that's already running white for Orim's Chant and/or Silence. Also, Enlightened Tutor could even fetch Defense Grid.

Also, as Bryant mentioned earlier about Mind's Desire.. a storm engine isn't going to be quite as good as Ad Nauseam if it gets stopped by Stifle. Memory Jar falls into that category as Ad Nauseam allows you to draw protection against Stifle. I still think all of these storm engines have to compare themselves first to Ad Nauseam.

I don't think its going to get unbanned anytime soon to be honest.



Though I would like to see Frantic Search come off the list. It would make Spiral Tide way better and make Solidarity a competitive High Tide list again. Granted I've heard it would make Aggro Control a little better, but will it really? I don't see why you'd run this over something like Ponder. I think its safe to unban but it will most certainly make High Tide combo Tier 1 again.

[JeroenC]

Barring its power level, I'm pretty sure one reason Desire is banned is (as with shit like Shahrazad) is the logistics of actually using it. The card says to shuffle your deck, then reveal the top card--every time it resolves. One of my friends played Mind's Desire at GP-Philadelphia 2008 and he said the judges were walking around making sure people actually did shuffle their deck every time a copy fired.

It's a legal shortcut to "sufficiently randomize" your deck once and then just rip cards from the top. Pretty sure that was the "rule" when the deck was big already.

Q: I cast a Mind's Desire off a Mind's Desire, and now I've got twenty-six copies of it. Do I really need to shuffle each time, or can I just shuffle once and flip cards off the top?

A: Not only is it well within reason to shuffle thoroughly and flip the top cards over, it's a well-established and very time-saving shortcut. The whole point of shuffling for Mind's Desire is to fully randomize your library, so unless something orders your library in any way between any copies resolving, the first bout of shuffling will ensure that. In fact, shuffling between each copy might have judges seriously looking into why you're wasting so much time.

http://mtgsalvation.com/983-cranial-insertion-ptqa.html

[Bryant Cook]

personally, i don't play storm-based combo deck. I can't even play glimpse elves in an optimal way. So to brian cook (tes), di (spiral tide), vacrix (spanish inquisition), emidlns (ddft) and arilax (ant); how would you break jar in the respective storm-based decks you guys are running?

Or is jar just that broken that even non-storm based decks will run it?

Bryant Cook god dammit.

I wouldn't run it. Draw 7's are very underwhelming nowadays.

As Vacrix posted, when you think about running a storm engine in storm you need to consider, "How does this compare to Ad Nauseam?" Unless someone is hiding another Flash from us, it's worse. Why draw seven when you could draw twenty-seven? Also, Stifle sucks.

[Jonathan Alexander]

It's a legal shortcut to "sufficiently randomize" your deck once and then just rip cards from the top. Pretty sure that was the "rule" when the deck was big already.

Q: I cast a Mind's Desire off a Mind's Desire, and now I've got twenty-six copies of it. Do I really need to shuffle each time, or can I just shuffle once and flip cards off the top?

A: Not only is it well within reason to shuffle thoroughly and flip the top cards over, it's a well-established and very time-saving shortcut. The whole point of shuffling for Mind's Desire is to fully randomize your library, so unless something orders your library in any way between any copies resolving, the first bout of shuffling will ensure that. In fact, shuffling between each copy might have judges seriously looking into why you're wasting so much time.

http://mtgsalvation.com/983-cranial-insertion-ptqa.html

Have you ever resolved Mind's Desire with Future Sight active? In Highlander? That's a pain.

Anyway, there's a feature match with Saito (some Extended GP final) where his opponent is playing Desire and they make a cut after every flip. I think that's another reasonable shortcut there.

[Julian23]

Looking at it from a statistical point of view, it really shouldn't matter whether you shuffle your deck with MDs as long as you don't resolve any spells in between copies.

Before you resolve a copy: Library was random.
After you resolved a copy: Library is random.

[Di]

Personally, I don't play storm-based combo deck. I can't even play Glimpse Elves in an optimal way. So to Brian Cook (TES), Di (Spiral Tide), Vacrix (Spanish Inquisition), emidlns (DDFT) and AriLax (AnT); how would you break Jar in the respective storm-based decks you guys are running?

Or is Jar just that broken that even non-storm based decks will run it?

Why would Spiral Tide run Memory Jar when, for a single additional mana, it could run the same effect that untaps all its lands? I'm not even sure why this is honestly a question or being discussed.

[Technics]

Why would Spiral Tide run Memory Jar when, for a single additional mana, it could run the same effect that untaps all its lands? I'm not even sure why this is honestly a question or being discussed.

Give this man a cookie. Jar wouldn't be run in spiral tide, TES/DDFT/Rit Storm wouln't run it. It might find it way into PSI but we already have DReturns. If people can't make that card broken in half for 1 mana less, then Jar will not be that much stronger.

What made jar such a broken mess was the supporting cast. Put VTutor, Monolith, Jar, Rituals, and all that into a deck in a format that is NOT prepared for turn 2-3 combo decks, and it's GG. Hell, someone make MegrimJar in legacy, and run it against the current field, and see it's strong but not broken. I'm not saying it should be unbanned, but i think it's much more of a candidate that say Oath, or some of these other things I hear.

[(nameless one)]

@Bryant Cook

Sorry about that, my iPhone is an idiot.

@Di

I know Jar can't be run in a Spring Tide deck. Your part of the question was more on the rhetorical side.

@Technics

Yes, what made Jar was its supporting cast. Is it even a defining card in Classic? I'm not saying Classic = Legacy but it's obvious that if it wreaked havoc that it has to be restricted (Necropotence, Flash) or defines (Oath of Druids, Mishra's Workshop) Classic, it's obviously overpowered in Legacy. I don't play MTGO but I haven't heard Jar doing such.

It's not like it's a logistical issue (Land Tax, Earthcraft, Mind's Desire)

[aaronm678]

@Bryant Cook

Sorry about that, my iPhone is an idiot.

@Di

I know Jar can't be run in a Spring Tide deck. Your part of the question was more on the rhetorical side.

@Technics

Yes, what made Jar was its supporting cast. Is it even a defining card in Classic? I'm not saying Classic = Legacy but it's obvious that if it wreaked havoc that it has to be restricted (Necropotence, Flash) or defines (Oath of Druids, Mishra's Workshop) Classic, it's obviously overpowered in Legacy. I don't play MTGO but I haven't heard Jar doing such.

It's not like it's a logistical issue (Land Tax, Earthcraft, Mind's Desire)

Jar is unplayable in classic (which means nothing -- the format is absolutely nothing like Legacy - Gush, Library of Alexandria, Oath, Workshop, Bazaar, etc, are all unrestricted - the format is even slightly faster than Vintage, as Shops can close out the game faster without Moxen, Storm gets unrestricted LED, and blue gets Gush +4x Brainstorm) -- but it seems safe in Legacy as well. A 5 mana draw 7 seems underwhelming, even if you can pass the turn with it in play.

Mind's desire I don't think is safe at all, it's a much better engine than Ad Naus (it can't be countered, you don't need mana floating, doesn't place CMC deck building restrictions, etc, and should be pretty damn reliable with anything more than about 4 storm).

[Koby]

As much as I love Classic, I don't think its fair to evaluate the efficacy of Vintage restricted cards based on a format maintain by ~20 individuals. That isn't enough decks/matchups/testing to sufficiently find analogs for Legacy nor Vintage.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

Bryant Cook god dammit.

I wouldn't run it. Draw 7's are very underwhelming nowadays.

As Vacrix posted, when you think about running a storm engine in storm you need to consider, "How does this compare to Ad Nauseam?" Unless someone is hiding another Flash from us, it's worse. Why draw seven when you could draw twenty-seven? Also, Stifle sucks.

Stifle sucks

Also - Bryant Cox.

[ImpinAintEasy]

Stifle sucks

Also - Bryant Cox.

Wait a minute, are you talking about Brian Cox the Actor or Bryan Cox the ex-NFL player, I'm confused?

/sarcasm

I know the feeling about having your name misspelled, try growing up with the first name Graig. Everyone calls me either Craig or Greg, noobs.

[Bryant Cook]

Wait a minute, are you talking about Brian Cox the Actor or Bryan Cox the ex-NFL player, I'm confused?

/sarcasm

I know the feeling about having your name misspelled, try growing up with the first name Graig. Everyone calls me either Craig or Greg, noobs.

When I was in the top 8 of Columbus that's what Wizards had my name as.

[Anusien]

A) Does Jar give us a critical mass of unrestricted Draw7s?
B) Does Jar give storm decks the ability to go off at 1 life instead of a higher life total the way Ad Nauseam requires.

Ad Nauseam forces you to build your deck in a certain way, eschewing cards like Grim Tutor in favor of Infernal Tutor and minimizing mana costs. Could you make a more consistent and less vulnerable storm deck if you could run 4 Memory Jar? Plus Force of Will, etc.

[Dark Ritual]

I'm dead certain jar would be broken in MUD decks utilizing metalworker and other such fast mana enablers. When you draw 7 cards with a metalworker in play or mana floating + lightning greaves, crazy things tend to happen.

Memory jar would be a shoe in for PSI, I know I would instantly run it over slithermuse if it were unbanned so I didn't have to jump through hoops to get blue mana and memory jar when naturally drawn isn't terrible like slithermuse, where you can actually cast it.

Yeah, WotC misspelled Bryant's name when he top 8'ed and it made me die a little inside when I saw that.

Also, stifle is a card.