Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[Aggro_zombies]

Im torn between screaming YES and hoping this isnt what finally gets brainstorm banned.

Wait until you see what happens when you get to Top into a miracle every turn!

[Greenpoe]

LaPille leaves but Wizards is still giving us total garbage? First the flip mechanic and now this "miracle" mechanic? Are they are just trying to make mechanics to frustrate players? Flip and miracle sound like Unhinged mechanics which are awkward and so reminiscent of Booster Tutor. The 2BB Dumb Demon infringes on Abyssal Persecutor's territory, which is an extremely boring card replacing a very unique one.

[Malchar]

So you can just have a bunch of miracle cards in hand and then brainstrom them back on top of your library.

[JDK]

With "topdeck mode" i meant the Miracle cost. I know the card is good with manipulation spells. What i meant is that the difference between the two cost make the card unplayable outside of the alternate cost. Force at 5 see scarce play with the main mana cost, and that's an hard counter that see play in control decks that strive to live until later. This is a burn spell that should be played in decks that will never ever hit 6 lands, and have to be played in a blue shell. A way more fair spell would this have been at 4 damage and a 1RR main cost or something.

You pretty much have to play Brainstorm or Top to get the best value out of miracle. I think it's fine that way, to keep a balance and not completely breaking the format.
Despite the high CMC of the spell it will still see play in some UR builds.

[randomly.anonymous]

You pretty much have to play Brainstorm or Top to get the best value out of miracle. I think it's fine that way, to keep a balance and not completely breaking the format.
Despite the high CMC of the spell it will still see play in some UR builds.

Unlikely opening for UR:
T1: Delver
T2: Blind Flip, Brainstorm, Delver
T3: Reveal Thunderous Wrath, 5 you, drop Goblin Guide, attack for 7, fireblast herpderp

[JDK]

I already see the "u mad?" spam. xD

[Aggro_zombies]

Unlikely opening for UR:
T1: Delver
T2: Blind Flip, Brainstorm, Delver
T3: Reveal Thunderous Wrath, 5 you, drop Goblin Guide, attack for 7, fireblast herpderp

Oh man, god hands. It really is rumor season, isn't it?

That said, comparing Thunderous Wrath to Fireblast is interesting. The cards overlap quite a bit in the sense that they are both finishers that you are basically only ever casting for their alternate costs. Thunderous Wrath doesn't force you to feed it lands, but it has severe timing restrictions that likely kill its playability.

[Barook]

Wow - miracle is a pants-on-head retarded mechanic.

And the Paladin seems interesting. While the lack of protection (like Mirran Crusader) sucks, it's basically a 4 power creature for 3 mana that also pumps another, undercosted fatty.

Swinging with a double-striking Goyf on turn 3? Sounds like a plan.

[randomly.anonymous]

Oh man, god hands. It really is rumor season, isn't it?

That said, comparing Thunderous Wrath to Fireblast is interesting. The cards overlap quite a bit in the sense that they are both finishers that you are basically only ever casting for their alternate costs. Thunderous Wrath doesn't force you to feed it lands, but it has severe timing restrictions that likely kill its playability.

Truesay. If you're gonna have the miser's Tunderous Wrath (or two), it may as well as be Fireblast.

My original concern was that the mechanic overall is too easily abused with the already widespread Brainstorm and also commonly played cards like Top and Ponder.

[Aggro_zombies]

Truesay. If you're gonna have the miser's Tunderous Wrath (or two), it may as well as be Fireblast.

My original concern was that the mechanic overall is too easily abused with the already widespread Brainstorm and also commonly played cards like Top and Ponder.

The problem is, again, if you don't have Top, Ponder, or Brainstorm, the cards are kind of shitty. Who wants to pay 4RR for a mere five damage?

Sure, you can set up getting them for their Miracle costs with Top and Ponder, but then you have to cast them on your draw steps (I guess you could activate Top to draw on the opponent's turn). And that level of limiting makes the cards most likely a lot worse than similar cards that are cheap all the time.

EDIT: Although I would assume any miracle cards pushed for Constructed will have cheap costs on both ends to mitigate that effect somewhat. Those are the cards most likely to make the jump into Legacy, too.

[menace13]

Sigarda seems good. 5/5 Flyer, Hexproof and prevents sacrifice effects. Maverick, Rock or Bant are the only decks capable of playing it though. It may not see any play, but It passes Jace/StP/Karakas/Liliana.

[Nihil Credo]

4 mana for a 5/5 flier is meh, 4 mana for a 5/5 trollshroud flier can be quite interesting. But precisely for that reason I think Maverik won't play more than a 1-of at best: it already has Mother of Runes to make its guys pseudo-untargetable, and those four mana could buy it something more interesting like some real fat. Although, being able to fetch a tough flier with GSZ seems a nice bonus, which makes the 1-of possibility more likely.

The ability is neat but still decidedly secondary, I think - blocking Innocent Blood and Liliana is kinda nice vs. Nic Fit and the occasional Pox, blocking Annihilator is pointless as it usually won't save you from Emrakul, any other realistic sac effects in the format? Tabernacle isn't affected, Smokestack is off the radar, Gatekeeper of Malakir doesn't really have a deck...

On a separate note, fall set is confirmed as Return to Ravnica. I think they might have wanted another year or so before doing another multicolour block, but with the new design philosophy (and after the lesson of Alara Reborn) I'm pretty confident that the multicolour theme won't be the entire schtick of the block like it was for Ravnica and Shards.

[Gheizen64]

4 mana for a 5/5 flier is meh, 4 mana for a 5/5 trollshroud flier can be quite interesting. But precisely for that reason I think Maverik won't play more than a 1-of at best: it already has Mother of Runes to make its guys pseudo-untargetable, and those four mana could buy it something more interesting like some real fat. Although, being able to fetch a tough flier with GSZ seems a nice bonus, which makes the 1-of possibility more likely.

The ability is neat but still decidedly secondary, I think - blocking Innocent Blood and Liliana is kinda nice vs. Nic Fit and the occasional Pox, blocking Annihilator is pointless as it usually won't save you from Emrakul, any other realistic sac effects in the format? Tabernacle isn't affected, Smokestack is off the radar, Gatekeeper of Malakir doesn't really have a deck...

On a separate note, fall set is confirmed as Return to Ravnica. I think they might have wanted another year or so before doing another multicolour block, but with the new design philosophy (and after the lesson of Alara Reborn) I'm pretty confident that the multicolour theme won't be the entire schtick of the block like it was for Ravnica and Shards.

It's 5 mana. Funny how baneslayer was hated for being the emblem of modern power creep just what, 2 years ago? This is leagues better (for legacy).

[GGoober]

Am I the only one who thinks the Demon is a really really really well-designed card for its 2BB mana cost? I feel it fits the flavor of black really well, and is extremely powerful in the right deck (not just referring to Legacy).

Seems like if you were playing some BW deck with Lingering Souls or Bitterblossom + Stoneforge, he seems to be a more solid Tombstalker that is harder to deal with.

But I guess I'm in love with the well-balanced design of the card with relationship of its drawback, power+flying + undying bonus

[Antonius]

Am I the only one who thinks the Demon is a really really really well-designed card for its 2BB mana cost? I feel it fits the flavor of black really well, and is extremely powerful in the right deck (not just referring to Legacy).

seems like a good fit for veteran explorer deck.

[joemauer]

It will probably be a generic demon with some shitty drawback.

This sums up the new demon.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The new heron chick is both more interesting to me than Avacyn, from a design persepctive, and more playable. Still almost certainly not good enough for Legacy, but seems fantastic in EDH and Standard, maybe Modern.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Oh man Miracle seems like the most obnoxious new ability since... well since transform I guess.

[Rizso]

The problem with the demon is that swords to plowshares pretty much counters the whole undying. The demon is pretty strong with some tokens or something that trigger when it dies. But legacy got swords so doubt it will be anything in legacy. Standard however it looks more interesting with Gravecrawer, Geralfen messenger and Skirsdag High Priest.

[CorpT]

The problem with the demon is that swords to plowshares pretty much counters the whole undying. The demon is pretty strong with some tokens or something that trigger when it dies. But legacy got swords so doubt it will be anything in legacy. Standard however it looks more interesting with Gravecrawer, Geralfen messenger and Skirsdag High Priest.

Sam Black solved that issue with Carrion Feeder. I don't know that it makes the Demon playable, but Swords is a solvable issue.