Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[Sloshthedark]

just ban all library manipulation and insert cockhorse tokens in!

wow.
seriously, wotc, fucking stop. I feel like we should just form a league independent of the DCI with house rules banning retarded new sets. And bringing the combat stack back.

[mojoiskewl]

Maybe they got tired of the legacy community whining about creature power creep


Here you go, broken spells; enjoy your format.

[Finn]

Legacy decks can not afford to be packing dead cards. Without Brainstorm, all the Miracle cards lose MOST of their edge. Sure, Ponder can do some of what Brainstorm does. Personsal Tutor is a nice stand-in. Jace does it all at 4 mana. Clique does a fine filler role. But only Brainstorm does it all at 1 mana instant speed. Eot, Brainstorm, reveal Temporal, I get two turns in a row. That is not Time Walk. It is way better than Time Walk ever was. And since Brainstorm alone is already in everything (and is better than the others), it is essentially without a real downside. You can't say that for any of the other enablers.

[nedleeds]

Ok, so you ban brainstorm. And then UW Stoneblade resolves jace and proceeds to take 3-4 turns in a row because they have a brainstorm on a stick.

Time Walk is the bee's knees when it allows you to outpace your opponents mana development. You have to cast Miracle Walk when you draw it, so outside of dumb lucking it or playing Lotus Petal / ESG. The evil blue mage will have to Brainstorm EO-Second Turn, so they untap with 2 islands and Miracle Walk on top. Now they cast it, make their 3rd land drop. Maybe play a top or a Didgeridoo, then take turn 4.

I don't think the card is better than Brainstorm or Jace or Snapcaster. If Brainstorm isn't banned why should this thing be?

[ddt15]

Regarding the Demon, congratulations you can power it out off of Entomb/Buried Alive/Animate Dead/etc etc. Yeah you get to draw seven cards off of this giant STP target but what will those cards be? More Animate Deads/Buried Alive/Entombs. What's next, use it with Sneak Attack - to do what, win more? I'm calling hyped bullshit on this one too.

Consider this;

Turn 1:
land, ritual, duress, petal, show & tell-> Demon.
Draw 14 cards.
petal, some rituals, tendrils.
Draw even more cards.
repeat.

If needed you can still just beat down with the 7/7 lifelink demon and sit behind your Force/discard defense.

Reminds me of necro trix.

[UnderwaterGuy]

I wonder how often it will be better than Explore + an extra combat step.

That's what time walk often is. I bet a lot of the people crying for a ban haven't played time walk.

[nedleeds]

Personal Tutor, lim dul's vault, scroll rack, mirri's guile, sylvan library, jace, top, preordain, ponder.

Really, since when is time walk<brainstorm?

Only thing that pisses me off about this card is the mythic rare thing.

Wonder if this set will lead into more brokeness I.E. Exodus into urza's saga. A shake up in legacy sounds more and more appealing.

Nobody plays Personal Tutor in a format with actual Time Walk. A Time Walk that doesn't exile itself. A format with Yawgmoth's Assmounting Will.

Brainstorm is better than this card. Brainstorm is not banned. Explain why this card should be banned and not Brainstorm.

Personal Tutoring for this card means Duress'ing yourself. I think it's OK, but not better than Brainstorm / Shuffle effect.

[Koby]

That's what time walk often is. I bet a lot of the people crying for a ban haven't played time walk.

I don't normally cast Time Walk, but when I do it's an Explore.

[Finn]

@ddt15: So you have the entire ANT suite of mana accel, also show and tell with enough creatures/search to make it worth playing, and force of will and plenty of discard? So it's an 85 card deck then?

[socialite]

Consider this;

Turn 1:
land, ritual, duress, petal, show & tell-> Demon.
Draw 14 cards.
petal, some rituals, tendrils.
Draw even more cards.
repeat.

If needed you can still just beat down with the 7/7 lifelink demon and sit behind your Force/discard defense.

Reminds me of necro trix.

So what you're saying is, you lose to Belcher a lot?

[menace13]

Legacy decks can not afford to be packing dead cards. Without Brainstorm, all the Miracle cards lose MOST of their edge. Sure, Ponder can do some of what Brainstorm does. Personsal Tutor is a nice stand-in. Jace does it all at 4 mana. Clique does a fine filler role. But only Brainstorm does it all at 1 mana instant speed. Eot, Brainstorm, reveal Temporal, I get two turns in a row. That is not Time Walk. It is way better than Time Walk ever was. And since Brainstorm alone is already in everything (and is better than the others), it is essentially without a real downside. You can't say that for any of the other enablers.

Sensei Top and Jace make this sickeningly good even without Brainstorm. Top , if Time Walk2 is not in hand is stronger than Bstorm. It will be amazing, Let's not kid ourselves.

Lately the WotC crew are making cards that are just dumb and they're all blue. The last 2 major impact non-blue cards were GSZ and Stoneforge?, compared to Jace, Misstep, Pierce, Snappy, Delver, and now Time Walk.

[ddt15]

@ddt15: So you have the entire ANT suite of mana accel, also show and tell with enough creatures/search to make it worth playing, and force of will and plenty of discard? So it's an 85 card deck then?

Well all you need to do is get the demon into play. S&T isn't needed, you can just hardcast him with Rituals after destroying their hand.

So what you're saying is, you lose to Belcher a lot?

I don't think a deck with discard and force should ever lose to belcher.

I think this deck with some tuning could be at least as good as Hive Mind/Sneak Attack and possibly faster + more disruption.

[Scordata]

[Bryant Cook]

Typically I would agree with you in that respect, however that new Time Walk is, in fact, busted. It cannot be Spell Snared (unlike its immortal counterpart) and an extra turn for such a cheap cost is such an incredibly heavy swing in a game that to be able to run four of them...is just plain loco.

Additionally, the new Bargain-Demon is busted. The difference between waiting until the end of a turn to draw cards and drawing cards immediately is incredibly different. Even at a higher cost, it is still incredibly easier to cheat this creature into play than a Bargain, as it is a creature. Its ability is very powerful for what it can do, and the fact you can even pay *fourteen* life for fourteen cards is just ludicrous - when it's an (virtually) unstoppable ability on a creature.

I agree on the Demon, drawing cards now in Reanimator is going to be a huge deal. It makes Swords to Plowshares and Pyroblast a lot less relevant. However, I don't agree on the new "walk". I can't be the only person who thinks this card is marginal at best.

[socialite]

Well all you need to do is get the demon into play. S&T isn't needed, you can just hardcast him with Rituals after destroying their hand.


I don't think a deck with discard and force should ever lose to belcher.

I think this deck with some tuning could be at least as good as Hive Mind/Sneak Attack and possibly faster + more disruption.

Wow that totally went over your head.

I agree on the Demon, drawing cards now in Reanimator is going to be a huge deal. It makes Swords to Plowshares and Pyroblast a lot less relevant. However, I don't agree on the new "walk". I can't be the only person who thinks this card is marginal at best.

I do, though I also think Demon is garbage.

[nedleeds]

Consider this;

Turn 1:
land, ritual, duress, petal, show & tell-> Demon.
Draw 14 cards.
petal, some rituals, tendrils.
Draw even more cards.
repeat.

If needed you can still just beat down with the 7/7 lifelink demon and sit behind your Force/discard defense.

Reminds me of necro trix.

Honestly this sounds awesome to me. Until you play the mirror. They drop their demon off SNT and it gets awkward.

I want to Sneak Attack him, swing, gain 7, draw 7, then play Karakas ... and return him.

[joemauer]

Nobody plays Personal Tutor in a format with actual Time Walk. A Time Walk that doesn't exile itself. A format with Yawgmoth's Assmounting Will.

Brainstorm is better than this card. Brainstorm is not banned. Explain why this card should be banned and not Brainstorm.

Personal Tutoring for this card means Duress'ing yourself. I think it's OK, but not better than Brainstorm / Shuffle effect.

I never said the card should be banned.

If brainstorm=ancestral recall and temporal manipulation=time walk, then brainstorm+temporal=vintage.

[ddt15]

Wow that totally went over your head.



I do, though I also think Demon is garbage.

If you are referring to how to stuff all that in a 60-card deck; I'm sure it is possible.

[socialite]

If you are referring to how to stuff all that in a 60-card deck; I'm sure it is possible.

No, but what you posted is essentially Belcher and just as horrible.

[Koby]

No, but what you posted is essentially Belcher and just as horrible.

Belcher with Force of Will. Take that Blue decks!