Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[Dzra]

Granted, it might be playable or even great, but not format wrecking. It also does virtually nothing to dislodge Maverick from the DTB of the format.

Although it'd be pretty dirty in a Bant Geistblade sort of shell. An extra swing with a Geist or equipped dude can easily close a game. Or an extra swing with a Reanimator target. Or Progenitus (did I mention that Personal Tutor also has synergy with Natural Order?)... I'm not saying it'll get snap banned, but it does have a lot of far reaching applications and potential.

[MSC]

Griselbrand in Reanimator:

Griselbrand does have some advantages over Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur, but he also has some disadvantages. He's a bigger body that lifelinks, and he can get you the cards after your end step allowing for a chance to play them before you must discard. However, if you Reanimate him and use his ability, you just paid 15 life. I hope you didn't fetch, Force, or Thoughtseize, because if you did, you just lost to Lightning Bolt. He also doesn't make your opponents lose their hands which can be a huge deal in some matchups. I can see him as a one-of that you Entomb for sometimes, but he's not doing much to increase Reanimator's viability in the metagame.

Calm down, people.

Your missing a point here, the point that makes Griselbrand better than Jin-Gitaxis: You can use his abillity anytime you want. And he is by far the better creature.
Okay, reanimating him will cost a ton of life, but now you have a 7/7 flying lifelinker on the board. You don't need to draw 7 cards here, you just say go. And than you wait, to see, if your opponent has anything broken to play. Sword Griselbrand? Response draw 7 and then I think, if i want to counter. He doesn't have the sword? Let's see if he got something in his turn, that can beat a 7/7 creature. If not, I can draw seven in his endstep and I don't even have to discard till the end of my turn. Or I'm low on life and don't use the draw, till I connected at least once with him.
It gives you lots of choices based on the situation...

[Greenpoe]

Guys let's act like Griselbrand is the new Snapcaster. Snapcaster can go in Combo (Tide), control (UW) and aggro (tempo). Grislebrand can go in combo (Reanimator), control (Gifts into Unburial Rites & Demon), and aggro (eh, just throw a ton of rituals and petals in one deck and we'll pretend that attacking with 7/7 on turn 2 is aggro). Seriously Gifts into Unburial Rites and the Demon could be quite strong. Screw Jace as a win-con, today's win-con's draw you 14 cards the turn they come into play, and 7 cards a turn every turn afterward. Gotta love Lifelink.

On another note, this guy's name blows and the flavor sucks. At least Jin sounds cool to say. Grislebrand sounds like a crappy off-brand of Oscar Meyer.

[eq.firemind]

I am much more worried about Griselbrand in Sneak and Tell where life is not a factor, so you always can draw 7 right off turn 2 Show and Tell and then see if your opponent can beat a 7/7 lifelinker.

[Aggro_zombies]

I am much more worried about Griselbrand in Sneak and Tell where life is not a factor, so you always can draw 7 right off turn 2 Show and Tell and then see if your opponent can beat a 7/7 lifelinker.

Not sold on this. So you SnT/Sneak him in, attack, and assuming your opponent doesn't have any of a host of answers (StP, Path, Karakas, something that can block him, etc), you can pay seven life to find a fattie that actually wins you the game? Why not just run more setup spells?

[nedleeds]

Any Mana Acceleration would do that.

Then how did you get Miracle Walk on top of your library? You people astound me sometimes with your complete inability to just walk through a couple of turns with the card.

If you Ponder / Brainstorm the Miracle Walk on top of your library, untap draw it and tap your island and pitch Simian Spirit Guide to have an extra land drop, and replace the Miracle Walk with your next draw then by all means power on through.

[Vacrix]

Not sold on this. So you SnT/Sneak him in, attack, and assuming your opponent doesn't have any of a host of answers (StP, Path, Karakas, something that can block him, etc), you can pay seven life to find a fattie that actually wins you the game? Why not just run more setup spells?

It could be played along side Doomsday and SnT in Rev614. Not that it would be any better than dropping Emrakul unless you are dealing with Innocent Blood or Karakas.



I see this demon getting played in place of Jin in reanimator mostly I don't know how good it will be in Sneak/Show. What about Dredge? Don't know if its better than Iona but draw 7-14 can easily put most of the deck into the yard.

[Gui]

I see this demon getting played in place of Jin in reanimator mostly I don't know how good it will be in Sneak/Show. What about Dredge? Don't know if its better than Iona but draw 7-14 can easily put most of the deck into the yard.

I believe it's a pretty strong target in Dredge. Imho, it makes a lot of other fine options to be subpar, like Iona or Sphinx (again - in my opinion).

But it's hard to say, Dredge doesn't even need DR targets to begin with. At least, it's playable.

[Aggro_zombies]

It could be played along side Doomsday and SnT in Rev614. Not that it would be any better than dropping Emrakul unless you are dealing with Innocent Blood or Karakas.

Wait...so you Doomsday to set up a pile with the blue hideaway land and this guy, bust him out with the hideaway land, and...? You can't activate his ability because you have less than seven cards in your library. Karakas and Diabolic Edict fuck him over just as hard as Emrakul, but if Emrakul actually swings then the game is almost always over, whereas this guy makes a 14 point life swing and is vulnerable to all kinds of removal that can't touch Emrakul (like StP).

I mean, I would not want to run four of these, four...Shelldock Isle, is it? I was under the impression that the DD into the miser Emrakul/Isle plan was not something you wanted everywhere, and trying to storm out with a bunch of random CiP lands and demons in your deck seems like way too much work.

I see this demon getting played in place of Jin in reanimator mostly I don't know how good it will be in Sneak/Show. What about Dredge? Don't know if its better than Iona but draw 7-14 can easily put most of the deck into the yard.

Reanimator has been covered by others already: he might attack and block better, but he doesn't draw well if you use Reanimate and Mind Twisting opponents can be extremely important in some matchups.

I don't play dredge so I can't say, but Iona doesn't see much maindeck play right now, and she seems better than this guy against a lot of decks. I don't know how Griselly stacks up against Flayer because I haven't yet seen a Flayer version in action. But I will say this: paying seven life to turf your library only seems good if involves making a shitload of zombies and then D Returning a Flamekin Zealot to combo kill someone. But if you D Return this guy, you're probably out of Narcomoebas, so things can get awkward barring reanimating every Ichorid you've got and then D Returning. I guess that plan has the upshot of making loads of zombies.

EDIT: Okay, math time.

Assuming your dredge list has 4 Troll, 4 Imp, 4 Thug, and no other maindeck dredgers (so no Darkblast or something), the maximum number of cards you can dredge off of Griselly's ability is 39 (4 Troll + 3 Imp), the minimum is 27 (4 Thug + 3 Imp), and the mean is 33. This assumes that you can chain dredge guys and that you don't have that many in hand, in play, or exiled to Ichorid, but that's not always realistic, so let's assume the true "average" dredge for a Griselly is ~27 cards. That is likely most of your remaining deck at this point, perhaps all of it. I'm assuming we're reanimating him on turn 3-4 here, then milling to almost nothing on the opponent's EoT to hit the maximum number of Ichorids/Narcomoebas.

Can any dredge players chime in with some realistic library depletion rates? I'm wondering if this guy works in anything but a combo setting (as in, activating him basically mills you to death so you have to win that turn).

[Vacrix]

I meant if you drop him off SnT instead of Emrakul. Clearly the Shelldock Isle would be primarily to set up Emrakul. But if you SnT this guy into play instead of Emrakul you win that turn through Tendrils.


I don't know man if you draw 14 cards you can probably reanimate another dude without using Reanimate as your reanimation spell. And you are insured with 2 or so protection spells.

In regards to Dredge, I forgot about Flayer. I've played against those builds and they are pretty savage. Good point on Narcomoebas. You would probably need a Bridge or two in the yard already and need to be playing Flamekin.

Off topic.. About Face is fucking hilarious with Tireless Tribe in Dredge. Now THATS some secret tech right there. Oh you don't block with your Mother of Runes? Really. Take 21, is it?

[Kuma]

Your missing a point here, the point that makes Griselbrand better than Jin-Gitaxis: You can use his abillity anytime you want. And he is by far the better creature.
Okay, reanimating him will cost a ton of life, but now you have a 7/7 flying lifelinker on the board. You don't need to draw 7 cards here, you just say go. And than you wait, to see, if your opponent has anything broken to play. Sword Griselbrand? Response draw 7 and then I think, if i want to counter. He doesn't have the sword? Let's see if he got something in his turn, that can beat a 7/7 creature. If not, I can draw seven in his endstep and I don't even have to discard till the end of my turn. Or I'm low on life and don't use the draw, till I connected at least once with him.
It gives you lots of choices based on the situation...

"Drawing whenever you want" isn't relevant. I've never discarded a card I needed to Jin-Gitaxias --- there are always redundant and bad cards to discard. I could wait, but what's the point? There's nothing to be gained. I'll grant you that Griselband is a much better body, but the extra life that must be paid and the inability to affect the opponent's hand are huge points in favor of Jin-Gitaxias.

I'd probably run some number of both, because there are situations in which one is better than the other. Griselband is not a straight up replacement for Jin-Gitaxias, there are too many differences.

[JDK]

I think Miracle Walk is good in Spiral Tide as an alternative to Candelabra. What Candelabra does is make that deck a turn faster.

You are kidding, right?

@Reanimator
See the Reanimator thread.

[joemauer]

How is Grislebrand in dredge? Here is a simple analogy to explain that.

FKZ & Sphinx of the lost Truths was equal to drain life & prosperity in power and speed.

Flayer & Grislebrand is equal to Tendrils & Ad Naseum in power and speed.

[Jeff]

I think Miracle Walk is good in Spiral Tide as an alternative to Candelabra. What Candelabra does is make that deck a turn faster.

I know IBA already screamed and yelled about how bad this statement is, but I just felt the need to ask this question.

Have you ever actually Blue Sun's Zenith'd anyone to death in Spiral Tide without Candelabras? It's pretty difficult. Without Candelabra, you pretty much have to rely on Brain Freeze most of the time, which has a whole host of problems.

[(nameless one)]

I know IBA already screamed and yelled about how bad this statement is, but I just felt the need to ask this question.

Have you ever actually Blue Sun's Zenith'd anyone to death in Spiral Tide without Candelabras? It's pretty difficult. Without Candelabra, you pretty much have to rely on Brain Freeze most of the time, which has a whole host of problems.

The problem with what you quoted is that you didn't quote the whole post.

My post was about Miracle Walk being Explore, for those using Explore as an alternative to Candelabra.

[Kich867]

I know IBA already screamed and yelled about how bad this statement is, but I just felt the need to ask this question.

Have you ever actually Blue Sun's Zenith'd anyone to death in Spiral Tide without Candelabras? It's pretty difficult. Without Candelabra, you pretty much have to rely on Brain Freeze most of the time, which has a whole host of problems.

A friend of mine does it regularly. Snap and cloud of faeries go a long way...he eventually hits 5-6 high tides and just starts turn-abouting / snapping / faerieing his way up the mana pool.

[Koby]

How is Grislebrand in dredge? Here is a simple analogy to explain that.

FKZ & Sphinx of the lost Truths was equal to drain life & prosperity in power and speed.

Flayer & Grislebrand is equal to Tendrils & Ad Naseum in power and speed.

The problem is that if you're Dread Return'd a creature - you've already won. Just ask any Dredge player - it's not usually the target that's important, but the amount of Zombies. They are generally what win you the game.

[JDK]

A friend of mine does it regularly. Snap and cloud of faeries go a long way...he eventually hits 5-6 high tides and just starts turn-abouting / snapping / faerieing his way up the mana pool.

It's still what makes Candelabra so valuable without using possible dead cards (Snap can be dead).

[Aggro_zombies]

How is Grislebrand in dredge? Here is a simple analogy to explain that.

FKZ & Sphinx of the lost Truths was equal to drain life & prosperity in power and speed.

Flayer & Grislebrand is equal to Tendrils & Ad Naseum in power and speed.

I think you would play Griselly and FKZ together, right? By the time you have the resources to D Return a Griselly, you're probably ~33% of the way into your library, and activating him probably takes you most of the rest of the way. Then you D Return FKZ and win.

[GGoober]

Having Force of Will does solve the losing to Force of Will problem that belcher runs into.

Belcher with FoW seems bad. Your opening 7 minus 2 card needs to be a perfect royal flush combination to go off on turn 1. Also, if you're not going off turn 1, you're not playing Belcher.

:P