[Deck] Deadguy Ale (B/w Confidant)

[barrozo]

Today I practiced a little more with the deck (only change was -1 SoLS, +1 Jitte), and I'm not liking the moxen. Most of the time it would be sitting in my hand cause every spell in hand were more important than the accel. Does anyone tried both with or w/o moxen? If so, how did it went? I'll test a little bit tomorrow (luv u, holiday!) w/o them, +1 land, +1 dkblast and +1 IoK and see how it goes.

Re: Engineered Plague: if I were running the E-Tutor package, I'd include a miser, since here I can expect lots of Maverick, Goblins, Elves, and in a lesser extent. Merfolks.

[abetman]

I've been playing b/w for a while and just wanted some feedback on the list I'm planning to run.

Lands(20)
4 Scrubland
3 Marsh Flats
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Wasteland
2 Swamp
2 Plains
1 Godless Shrine
1 Fetid Heath
1 Bojuka Bog

Creatures(15)
4 Dark Confidant
4 Mother of Runes
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mirran Crusader

Tool Box(8)
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Sensei's Divining Top

3 Bitterblossom

Spells(17)
4 Thoughtseize
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Path to Exile
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Lingering Souls


I currently don't have mirran crusaders yet and am thinking of using nighthawks at the moment. I would also be taking out 1 bitterblossom maybe for an elspeth. Just wanted to know your thoughts... Thanks!

[ForlornEgoist]

@ the Inquisitions: Unless you're faced with a great deal of combo in your meta I'd honestly rather see you run Hymns, tbh, as nixing 2 cards will, in the long run, be much more proactive in removing potential threats.

@ 1 SDT: I'd suggest bumping them up to 3, at least, so as to maximize your Bobs. Albeit the equipment helps to recover life, it makes little sense in not minimizing the amount of life lost, particularly since your build is running Bitterblossom.

I, personally, prefer Phyrexian Crusader over Mirran. The reason being that, although the Infect is rather annoying, the static color protection is much more relevant as Canadian Thresh/UR Delver and Maverick/Bant/UW Stoneblade are the DTB, so pro-White has much more utility. Heck, I myself am actually running x4 Nighthawk in the spot because he can trade with any creature and recovers life.

Not sure how I feel about the PtE. Deathmark or Go for the Throat are my preferred substitutes.

Also, considering the prevalence of Stoneforge decks I'd suggest having access to a Manriki-Gusari in either the MD or SB.

Otherwise your list is rather standard. Hope this helped.

Forlorn Egoist

[KobeBryan]

@ the Inquisitions: Unless you're faced with a great deal of combo in your meta I'd honestly rather see you run Hymns, tbh, as nixing 2 cards will, in the long run, be much more proactive in removing potential threats.

@ 1 SDT: I'd suggest bumping them up to 3, at least, so as to maximize your Bobs. Albeit the equipment helps to recover life, it makes little sense in not minimizing the amount of life lost, particularly since your build is running Bitterblossom.

I, personally, prefer Phyrexian Crusader over Mirran. The reason being that, although the Infect is rather annoying, the static color protection is much more relevant as Canadian Thresh/UR Delver and Maverick/Bant/UW Stoneblade are the DTB, so pro-White has much more utility. Heck, I myself am actually running x4 Nighthawk in the spot because he can trade with any creature and recovers life.

Not sure how I feel about the PtE. Deathmark or Go for the Throat are my preferred substitutes.

Also, considering the prevalence of Stoneforge decks I'd suggest having access to a Manriki-Gusari in either the MD or SB.

Otherwise your list is rather standard. Hope this helped.

Forlorn Egoist

With black, you dont' really need PTE or STP. you got the 2 drop removals without significant drawbacks. On another note, i'd run Smother over GFTT.

[abetman]

With black, you dont' really need PTE or STP. you got the 2 drop removals without significant drawbacks. On another note, i'd run Smother over GFTT.

@forlorn and avatar:
Thanks for the feedback I really appreciate it!
I was supposed to post my reply earlier regarding why I chose to run the cards on the list, but my phone's browser refreshed that I needed to start over.

My original post would have more detailed explanations on my choices but I am currently too lazy and pissed off that it got deleted accidentally.

Anyway I chose mirran saders with the consideration that 1. I was playing moms and would assume they would stick, giving mirran added protection from red and white if needed and 2. They are very good beaters specially if we woul be able to equip them.

On pte's and stp's over gft and smother, I just wanted to have instant speed 1cmc removal. We could beat them back the life they would be gaining from stp and not all decks run basics (dredge, mud and affinity).

[igri_is_a_bk]

Swords to Plowshares should not be cut for Smother, Go for the Throat, whatever. Deadguy is a midrange deck, and a slower one at that. Most games, you'll find yourself assuming the control role. Think about it, if you said to yourself, "I want to play BW Control" it would look very similar to Deadguy, if not the same. The life gain from Swords is not a problem.

[ForlornEgoist]

Indeed, the life gain is highly irrelevant for us. And even if you were looking for a supplemental kill spell, Deathmark would be much more efficient than either Smother or Go for the Throat. When you look at DTB, Maverick, UR Delver/Canadian Thresh, U/W Stoneblade, and Misc. Stoneblade decks are the most prevalent. Of these, Maverick is the most troublesome considering since Thalia's release they'ved upped their creature count and can now be seen running Scavenging Ooze as well. Deathmark kills all relevant creatures in the meta right now. Yeah, its sorcery speed, but considering it only costs 1and you need to consider the possibility of having to play around a Thalia, its well-worth the loss in spell speed, particularly since our deck rarely runs into mana issues.

On a side-note, Manriki-Gusari was an all-star for me last night. I very nearly went 4-0, going 3-1 instead (the loss was against Maverick; We were on game 3 and he drew the land he needed literally one turn before I drew the one I needed). The Manriki literally ended up winning me all of the other MU's. I definitely think its a card not enough decks are considering.

Forlorn Egoist

[abetman]

I haven't tested it yet but, I would be putting a miser gusari on the side board. I'm just waiting for the cards I ordered. Unfortunately, my fetid heath was omitted from the list I sent them.

Since most of you play the token list, what do you guys think of cabal therapy? I am planning to up my discard count or may be just replacing thoughseize to therapy.

I was thinking -2 thoughtseize,-1IoK, +3 therapy.
I used to run hymns, however, I would want to focus on targeted discard, hymn is prone to spell snare which sucks, specially in cases you really need to make your opponent discard.

[barrozo]

Cabal Therapy is awesome in this deck. You definitely should run all 4 copies before the first copy of IoK/Seize.

Re: Hymn vs. IoK: I'm running IoK, because of its mana cost (my list is already filled with 2-drops), of how IoK plays well with Therapy. Also, I'm running Liliana for more discard. Without Liliana, maybe I would try the Hymns instead of IoK, but right now, Therapy-IoK-Lily config has been great for me.

[fetterfool]

I think that cutting Thoughtsieze for IOK is a ridiculous idea. Legacy is a broad format with several spells costings more than 3 mana. Yes, I know, IOK hits every card in RUG Delver. Thoughtsieze hits sneak attack, Jace, batterskull, you know, cards that really suck when resolved against you. If your meta consists of nothing but RUG delver and the lone deadguy player, play IOK. If you're going anywhere else, thoughtseize is where you want to be.

Deathmark over swords to plowshares? what? just run perish in the side. White weenies still got you down at your local? run virtue's ruin.

Hymn just gives you free wins. I cannot remember a game of legacy in which i cast two Hymns before turn 5 and lost. that said, top decking hymn beyond turn 5 is probably a whiff....if you're playing chrome mox, i'd say def play hymns...as a turn one hymn can be a free win (variance included). If no moxes...there may be other routes you want to take this deck.

Some good players suggested zealous persecution, as that -1/-1 effect kills A LOT of creatures in legacy. And hell, Joe Bernal played it, and he's like the Deadguy master

[ForlornEgoist]

By no means did I ever even give a hint of advocating Deathmark> StP. I simply said that Dmark might be a better option for Swords 5 & 6 over PtE. Nor am I denying the obvious power of board sweepers like Perish or Virtue's Ruin. That having been said, not everyone is as fond of board sweepers. Perhaps some players running a high count of white creatures, or maybe they splash a 3rd color, maybe their meta is rampant with Thalia and 4cc can be unreasonable. There are a great amount of unknown variables in the equation of deciding which removal is most optimal. Yes, I neglected board sweepers, but the debate was for targeted removal, and as far as targeted removal goes, Dmark's only major downside, honestly, is that its Sorcery speed which I consider more than a justifiable drawback considering it kills every problem creature for us for a pittance B while at the same time NOT providing the benefit of a land like PtE does.

Forlorn Egoist

[fetterfool]

By no means did I ever even give a hint of advocating Deathmark> StP. I simply said that Dmark might be a better option for Swords 5 & 6 over PtE. Nor am I denying the obvious power of board sweepers like Perish or Virtue's Ruin. That having been said, not everyone is as fond of board sweepers. Perhaps some players running a high count of white creatures, or maybe they splash a 3rd color, maybe their meta is rampant with Thalia and 4cc can be unreasonable. There are a great amount of unknown variables in the equation of deciding which removal is most optimal. Yes, I neglected board sweepers, but the debate was for targeted removal, and as far as targeted removal goes, Dmark's only major downside, honestly, is that its Sorcery speed which I consider more than a justifiable drawback considering it kills every problem creature for us for a pittance B while at the same time NOT providing the benefit of a land like PtE does.

Forlorn Egoist

Well, my gooooood siiiiir. I think we all know the tradeoff in deathmark and path.

Deathmark kills off every problem creature for deadguy? You've never been killed by a flipped delver? Or two glistener elves who wait to be berserked after blockers are declared? Or...or...just stop arguing that deathmark is the way to go. You need the broadest/most efficient answer in this format.

Yes, Maverick is one of this deck's hardest matchups.

Is the fact that Deathmark hits every creature in that deck but doesn't give your opponent an extra land reason really enough to play a terrible card like deathmark? Maverick isn't going to steal the game from you because now its noble hierarchs and already existing lands got a free land for a new friend. It's going to beat you because you sided in deathmark instead of perish.

[ForlornEgoist]

Albeit I shouldn't of used an absolute like "every," as my intention was in the context of the Maverick MU, so I apologize for the vagueness of my statement. However, I hardly think its fair to essentially boil all my arguments down to saying "nope, its not as good as Path, the extra land is moot, etc. etc." If you really want to play the situation game I can easy make-up scenarios where PtE would be a liability far worse than Dmark, so please refrain from playing that game.

Secondly, albeit we're using Maverick as our example considering its current DTB status however please note that the original purpose of my posts as I stated was to discuss removal and possible substitutes for PtE which I myself am not overly fond. I provided Dmark as an alternative and then gave arguments for or against. Not once did I claim that Dmark was the best choice for the deck. Not once did I say a person should use these in their SB instead of board sweepers. The arguments I provided were merely to provide players with an alternative to PtE for their Swords 5+. I noted how it being able to nix green/white meant it could kill every creature in Maverick, meaning that for people with metas heavy with Maverick Dmark might be a good choice.
Do you honestly think I'm so provincial that I can't seem the limitations on its Sorcery speed or the other 3 colors it can't hit? Obviously there are flaws in the card. Obviously it might be suboptimal to other removal like PtE. However, the point was simply to discuss and debate, not to break Deadguy into a few card choices which were absolute.

Again I state that I understand the power of board sweepers. I myself run several Pernicious Deed in my SB specifically for dealing with board positions like that which Maverick can establish. Repeating incessantly, "Don't use X. Use a board sweeper. Don't consider X. Use a board sweeper." Isn't going to service anyone in their deck construction and theorycraft.

If you don't agree with my opinion, fine, thats your right. But please, don't discourage me or any other player from wanting to argue and debate card choices. Provide reasons in support of or against X, but don't just blithely discourage a card or strategy because in your experience its worthless.

Returning back to Magic, out of curiosity how has Sorrin been working for players? I've seen numerous lists sport him but I myself think him to be on par with Elspeth in that their cute to have but ultimately don't add any real amazing utility. Just theorycrafting, so if any players have experience please share.

Forlorn Egoist

[paladin3056]

Albeit I shouldn't of used an absolute like "every," as my intention was in the context of the Maverick MU, so I apologize for the vagueness of my statement. However, I hardly think its fair to essentially boil all my arguments down to saying "nope, its not as good as Path, the extra land is moot, etc. etc." If you really want to play the situation game I can easy make-up scenarios where PtE would be a liability far worse than Dmark, so please refrain from playing that game.

Secondly, albeit we're using Maverick as our example considering its current DTB status however please note that the original purpose of my posts as I stated was to discuss removal and possible substitutes for PtE which I myself am not overly fond. I provided Dmark as an alternative and then gave arguments for or against. Not once did I claim that Dmark was the best choice for the deck. Not once did I say a person should use these in their SB instead of board sweepers. The arguments I provided were merely to provide players with an alternative to PtE for their Swords 5+. I noted how it being able to nix green/white meant it could kill every creature in Maverick, meaning that for people with metas heavy with Maverick Dmark might be a good choice.
Do you honestly think I'm so provincial that I can't seem the limitations on its Sorcery speed or the other 3 colors it can't hit? Obviously there are flaws in the card. Obviously it might be suboptimal to other removal like PtE. However, the point was simply to discuss and debate, not to break Deadguy into a few card choices which were absolute.

Again I state that I understand the power of board sweepers. I myself run several Pernicious Deed in my SB specifically for dealing with board positions like that which Maverick can establish. Repeating incessantly, "Don't use X. Use a board sweeper. Don't consider X. Use a board sweeper." Isn't going to service anyone in their deck construction and theorycraft.

If you don't agree with my opinion, fine, thats your right. But please, don't discourage me or any other player from wanting to argue and debate card choices. Provide reasons in support of or against X, but don't just blithely discourage a card or strategy because in your experience its worthless.

Returning back to Magic, out of curiosity how has Sorrin been working for players? I've seen numerous lists sport him but I myself think him to be on par with Elspeth in that their cute to have but ultimately don't add any real amazing utility. Just theorycrafting, so if any players have experience please share.

Forlorn Egoist

I think they overacted because you where considering Deathmark over other better spot removals as a mode of comparison. Moving on, I think another good spot removal would be Dismember, technically would cost only , but then again with burn running rampant in the meta this shouldn't even be considered.

As for Sorin, I think he is good, at worst he would provide unlimited supply of vampire tokens, and create an emblem to pump out your tokens. This synergizes really well with Lingering Souls which undoubtedly is one of the best cards printed in DKA. His ultimate is a good bonus to get rid of opposing planeswalkers like JTMS or creatures like KotR and goyfs (but it seems maverick doesn't play goyf nowadays) the plus side you get to control them when you destroy them, but this rarely happens since your opponent won't likely let Sorin live through his ultimate or even cast it. This is good as a 2-of in the deck, maybe as a 1 of but haven't tested that yet.

If you are considering planeswalkers, I think :Liliana of the Veil: is the way to go, discard and creature removal in one, works better in a maverick filled meta coupled with your Zealous Persecutions to wipe away those annoying X/1 creatures. And if you get her ultimate you have a pseudo vindicate in play.

[Rizso]

Compared to other planeswalkers sorin and Liliana reaches their ultimates pretty easy but that also cos of lingering souls and Bitterblossom can protect them in additional to their own protection. Have ultimated Liliana a many time but for sorin most of them time an emblem is better unless they have a something really worth destroying.

Only maindecked removal im running are 4 swords to plowshares, 3 Liliana of the Veil and 2 Zealous Persecution. Really shouldnt need more when packing Discard effects as well, also Jitte can easly win creature matchups. Avoiding 2 mana removal like the plague no reason to make Spellsnare any more useful.

Thb deathmark is fine, matchups where you would want more target removal is pretty much the maverick matchup?
Sure if not playing lilianas it might be needed to play more removal. After board i got 4 swords, 2 perish, 2 vindicate and 3 liliana + some discard effects that didnt get boarded out. Geting thoes Vindicates in for the elspeth they are gonna board in. As well boarding in my second Elspeth for the matchup.

[Justin]

The only things that jumps out to me is that Vampire Nighthawk is not very good in this deck. Some people play it in The Gate, because they need the life gain to overcome all their suicide effects. That doesn't seem like a huge problem for you. I would replace it with either:

1) Bitterblossom: To keep with the tokens theme. It's nice to be able to produce a lot of evasive guys that can pick up equipment.

2) Tidehollow Sculler: This helps against combo and control matchups and is effectively a 2-for-one. I would also run a full set of Mother of Runes to protect him.

[ubernostrum]

So, a funny thing...

I've decided I'm going to GP Atlanta, and based on the way things have been trending recently in the US, I suspect the Vials-and-hate-bears style of build may be quite good right around then.

But one thing I'm really heavily considering as I test out different configurations is running Path maindeck instead of StP. Thinking is:

1. When you go Vials, you basically become much more of a tempo deck. You're eking out wins and the life gain from StP is actually a factor.
2. Public enemy number one (RUG Delver) is a really sweet deck to have Path against.
3. Most of the other decks that have must-kill stuff are either also light on basics or are Maverick, which has enough acceleration already from Hierarch and Zenith-into-Arbor that it probably doesn't make too much of a difference.

[lsho]

Hi! Actually my first post as I've just started with Legacy after some years break.
Just wanted to share the list I am currently testing and assembling because I am not sure where I can optimize it:

4 Marsh Flats
2 Bloodstained Mire
4 Scrubland
4 Wasteland
3 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Karakas
[19 Land]

4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Mirran Crusader
[11 Creatures]

4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Lingering Souls
3 Vindicate
2 Bitterblossom
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Chrome Mox
[30 Spells]

So far, I am pretty happy with this build. I've not had problems with Blade based Esper and UW decks and also Maverick was OK. The thing I am not really sure about is the Mirran Crusaders. They are cool because they block Batterskull Germ tokens any day long, they are also super awesome when equipped themselves but double-W is just hard to get sometimes. I am not really sure what could take his place.

[barrozo]

Yesterday I played another Legacy Qualifier (62 players), and it was terrible. Went 1-3 drop, winning the first one against TES, losing against Bant, Junk and Hive Mind. Lost twice to double Goyf and twice to topdecks after discard (IoK'ed X card, opp topdecked X the following turn). Mulled 6 in 8 games, got mana-screwed in two games.... sigh...
There were lots of Deadguy/Esper decks in the champ, which might suggest Stillmoon Cavalier in the SB.

Isho, I'd take a mox and add a land, as sometimes the card disadvantage can be awkward. Also, I'd take a couple of seize/iok and bring 2x Liliana. She is awesome.

[berksowl]

This deck has been doing good things for me. I'd been running The Gate for a bit before mixing in some white. Here's how it looks for now:


4 Dark Confidant
4 Stoneforge Mystic

1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Liliana of the Veil

1 Batterskull
4 Bitterblossom
2 Cabal Therapy
2 Chrome Mox
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Lingering Souls
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Vindicate

1 Bojuka Bog
4 Marsh Flats
3 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Scrubland
4 Swamp
2 Wasteland

Sideboard
1 Serenity
1 Oblivion Ring
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void
2 Pithing Needle
1 Sword of War and Peace
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Warmth
2 Zealous Persecution

I've also been considering some other cards, but I'm feeling pretty certain they actually wouldn't improve the deck, or that there's really no card I should remove to make room for them:

Oona's Blackguard in the main.
Yixlid Jailer in the sideboard.

And then there's Mother of Runes, which would be handy but, again, I'm not sure it's worth it or, as has been said in this forum, maybe its not enough of a threat for this deck.

Overall, I'm wondering if anyone more experienced than me at playing this deck could comment on my overall balance of discard, removal, and threats. Am I getting it right?