Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[ScatmanX]

Maybe a Green splash in Goblins for 2/3 pieces of Descendant's Path?

If goblins needed that we'd use Lead the Stampede.
Sure it's a nice card, but goblin is not lacking neither C.A. or ways to cheat a guy tnto the battlefield.
That said, who knows...

[SpikeyMikey]

The UW planeswalker's +1 is "Target player mills 30 cards," clearly.

EDIT: I think the thought process here is usually, "I'm taking an extra turn for 1U, which is like Time Walk" ==> "Time Walk is part of the Power Nine" ==> "The Power Nine are broken" ==> "Therefore, taking an extra turn for 1U is broken." In the example you quoted, it's merely good: Ignithas_ gets an Explore and an extra use out of his two-mana planeswalker, which is fine, but not anywhere close to being back-breakingly broken. People are really overvaluing extra turns in the abstract here.

There's this deck out there called RUG Delver. Its primary gameplan is to drop 1 mana 3 power threats and then using Stifle, Wasteland and Daze to effectively "Time Walk" opponents until they can get them to burn range. It already runs 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponders. You don't think this deck would benefit from the addition of 3-4 Temporal Mastery?

Temporal Mastery isn't broken the way that say, Flash, is broken. It's not an "I win" button. But I'm sure you're well aware of how good it is to be on the play in this format. The additional tempo is huge, no matter what you're playing. This negates that tempo if you're on the draw and doubles it if you're on the play. It's an incredibly strong card and it will be heavily played.

[boneclub24]

This Devil is fuggin awesome. Time to dredge up RDW.

[Aggro_zombies]

There's this deck out there called RUG Delver. Its primary gameplan is to drop 1 mana 3 power threats and then using Stifle, Wasteland and Daze to effectively "Time Walk" opponents until they can get them to burn range. It already runs 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponders. You don't think this deck would benefit from the addition of 3-4 Temporal Mastery?

Temporal Mastery isn't broken the way that say, Flash, is broken. It's not an "I win" button. But I'm sure you're well aware of how good it is to be on the play in this format. The additional tempo is huge, no matter what you're playing. This negates that tempo if you're on the draw and doubles it if you're on the play. It's an incredibly strong card and it will be heavily played.

People are trying to stick this card into anything with Islands and Brainstorm in it. Look at the example Ignithas_ posted: it involves Brainstorm, planeswalkers, and opponents scooping for no reason. That's not RUG Tempo at all.

[menace13]

Temporal Mastery isn't broken the way that say, Flash, is broken. It's not an "I win" button. But I'm sure you're well aware of how good it is to be on the play in this format. The additional tempo is huge, no matter what you're playing. This negates that tempo if you're on the draw and doubles it if you're on the play. It's an incredibly strong card and it will be heavily played.

I was so used to posts stating that extra turns aren't good, that I wanted to believe them. It was easy for me at least to view the card as dumb. If someone had told me that I could play 4 Time Walks in a deck but only cast it during my draw step, I would play them without question. Extra turns for 2mana is something I want to be doing regardless if my board has 2 or 3 lands only, most of the time it will be to set up Jace.

There is going to be a lot of turn 4 Jace while the opponent is stuck on turn 2.

[MaximumC]

If goblins needed that we'd use Lead the Stampede.
Sure it's a nice card, but goblin is not lacking neither C.A. or ways to cheat a guy tnto the battlefield.
That said, who knows...

I think this is the wrong angle on the card. What you really want is to be using it as a psuedo Tinker / Oath. Something like this:

Combo (18)
4 Mutavault
4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Show and Tell
4 Descendant's Path
3 Nest Invader

Search (12)
4 Lim Dul's Vault
4 Brainstorm
3 Preordain
1 Personal Tutor

Permission (12)
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Snare
2 Flusterstorm
2 Daze

Removal (2)
2 Echoing Truth

Land (16)
7 Blue fetchlands
4 Tropical Island
4 Island
1 Forest

Your gameplan would be to resolve Mutavault / Nest Invader and Descendant's Path. Once Emrakul is on top, he pops out for the win. You've got Show and Tell as a backup plan in case things go awry.

This probably isn't the most perfect shell for this enchantment, but it gets the idea across. Given all the topdeck manipulation you want to use, maybe you also want to sneak Temporal Mastery in there, too...

[dontbiteitholmes]

OMG Vexing Devil....

[TsumiBand]

To be fair, the card disadvantage angle needs to be explored a lot more with Temporal Mastery. I mean I get it, okay, we're going to be playing with Top/Brainstorm/Jace/Preordain/other topdeck tutors, but it's like a lot of people are pointing out; if you're playing Temporal Mastery that early to 'power out Jace', you may as well be playing Explore.



Really, truly, I see the appeal of getting Jace into play before your opponent plays their third land, but you're going to be throwing away a ton of opportunity setting up the bomb just to have Jace sitting on an open board. That's not tempo, especially when the opponent is herp derping their own SFM/Batterskull stuff that you don't have the card advantage to really deal with anymore. That's how tempo loses to Burn.dec. Just sayin.

I'm so on the fence about Miracle, but it's like any other tech, someone please sleeve the shit up before you yammer on about how it's going to eat all the fromat.

[five]

I agree, though I don't think it looks like a Magic card.

That art just gave me the chills...

[Koby]

That art just gave me the chills...

I am reminded of this card, but with more CG and crappy collaging. Nielsen should probably just stick to doing commissioned alters. This is like a guru Oath of Druids

[SpikeyMikey]

People are trying to stick this card into anything with Islands and Brainstorm in it. Look at the example Ignithas_ posted: it involves Brainstorm, planeswalkers, and opponents scooping for no reason. That's not RUG Tempo at all.

Yes, but every time a good card comes out, people suggest all sorts of terrible ways to use it that involve perfect sequences of draws on your part and an opponent who durdles the whole game. The truth is, Time Walking in Legacy is less useful than Time Walking in Vintage. Your turns aren't as broken and most importantly, you don't have access to the massive amounts of mana early that you do in a format with moxen (real moxen). However, it's still really good. Buying a turn to beat someone again with a pair of Insectile Aberrations is definitely going to increase your chance of winning. It's not going to seal the deal by itself. But Brainstorm doesn't win games by itself either and we all agree that Brainstorm is very powerful.

[Vacrix]

Okay, I'll bite: gg why?

Yeah it wouldn't be GG necessarily. It was purely speculative at UW and I didn't even mention what the + or - abilities did anyway so who could know. Likely it would be something like

Birdman UW
Planeswalker
+2 Look at the top 4 cards of your library and put them back in any order.
-1 Shuffle your Library. Then draw a card.
-10 You get an emblem that says "Whenever the opponent draws a card, you may also draw a card."
4

Who knows? meh It wouldn't be OP if it were printed at UW with abilities like that, though they work well together.


As for this Devil... HOLY FUCKING SHIT. Its awesome. FUCK mono-red burn, Hanni's list just found a new friend. R for 4/3 or 4 damage is exactly what the deck needs. I anticipate that WUR Quickdraw could be a deck to beat with access to a 4/3 for R, a 4/5 for W, a 3/2 flying for U, and a 2/2 Haste for R. Not to mention Lavamancer.

Proclamation of Rebirth anyone?


Also, is this not the most insane powercreep we've seen in a long time? Its BASICALLY R for 4 damage in the early game that cannot be played as a reach spell in the mid-late game when your opponent will have an answer for it.

[TsumiBand]

Yeah it wouldn't be GG necessarily. It was purely speculative at UW and I didn't even mention what the + or - abilities did anyway so who could know. Likely it would be something like

Birdman UW
Planeswalker
+2 Look at the top 4 cards of your library and put them back in any order.
-1 Shuffle your Library. Then draw a card.
-10 You get an emblem that says "Whenever the opponent draws a card, you may also draw a card."
4

Who knows? meh It wouldn't be OP if it were printed at UW with abilities like that, though they work well together.


As for this Devil... HOLY FUCKING SHIT. Its awesome. FUCK mono-red burn, Hanni's list just found a new friend. R for 4/3 or 4 damage is exactly what the deck needs. I anticipate that WUR Quickdraw could be a deck to beat with access to a 4/3 for R, a 4/5 for W, a 3/2 flying for U, and a 2/2 Haste for R. Not to mention Lavamancer.

Proclamation of Rebirth anyone?


Also, is this not the most insane powercreep we've seen in a long time? Its BASICALLY R for 4 damage in the early game that cannot be played as a reach spell in the mid-late game when your opponent will have an answer for it.

A 2 mana Planeswalker that goes to 6 on the first turn? Fuck that. Free Impulse is still free, and between the usual bevy of fetchlands and draw spells/tutor spells, no.

I'm liking this Proclamation of Rebirth idea though... hmmm

[Barook]

For what it's worth, the devil also works kinda well with Ranger of Eos.

[Nihil Credo]

To be fair, the card disadvantage angle needs to be explored a lot more with Temporal Mastery. I mean I get it, okay, we're going to be playing with Top/Brainstorm/Jace/Preordain/other topdeck tutors, but it's like a lot of people are pointing out; if you're playing Temporal Mastery that early to 'power out Jace', you may as well be playing Explore.

Really, truly, I see the appeal of getting Jace into play before your opponent plays their third land, but you're going to be throwing away a ton of opportunity setting up the bomb just to have Jace sitting on an open board. That's not tempo, especially when the opponent is herp derping their own SFM/Batterskull stuff that you don't have the card advantage to really deal with anymore. That's how tempo loses to Burn.dec. Just sayin.

I hope you do understand that Time Walk is an Explore that not only cycles but also literally never costs more than zero mana (and quite often a lot less)?

The real drawback of Temporal Mastery consists of those games where you get stuck with a 7cc card in hand and without a Brainstorm effect or at least a FoW to pitch it. But actually resolving Temporal Mastery is never bad. The worst case scenario, if you have no land drops, no attacks, no planeswalker, and no use for your leftover mana, is that you just cycled a card for free.

A Time Walk effect will not cost you either tempo or card advantage (barring a Smokestack on the field or crap like that).

[baghdadbob]

You are wrong here. BUG control usually does not pressure the life total, but wants to make sure creatures are dead. Best options for this are deed/Perish/damnation. Killing Wave gives the opponents a choice and is not playable in legacy.

You could be right sometimes it would be more effective to just play damnation than this card. I still really like it and am going to try it out just to see.

[Vacrix]

For what it's worth, the devil also works kinda well with Ranger of Eos.

Holy shit you're right. Maybe we'll see a new Zoo variant emerge. Honestly this card is so good that I think it will make a lot more decks playable and Burn will fall out of favor. This card is so huge that people are sure to adjust at least their sideboards to combat the coming conflagration.. which means Burn is gonna be hated out FAST cause its linear and chooses not to play another color.

[MaximumC]

I was gonna join the "Its just like Browbeat" club, but upon more reflection, I think this Devil is better than that. Browbeat gives them the choice of taking damage now or letting you draw cards and spend mana which may result in damage later. Devil gives them the choice between damage now or damage later with no additional resource investment. So while the opponent will always choose the least painful option, the difference between the choices is much smaller than for Browbeat.

[troopatroop]

The Devil is good imo. They're usually just gonna take 4, which is fine, and a 4/3 for 1 is amazing!


Man... a 4/3 creature for R? Don't we kinda HAVE to play that guy? maybe only 3? I'm kinda shocked...

[Vacrix]

That makes me think that the card is going to be better in decks other than Burn. Say, for example, the opponent has a number of ways to interact with you. You cast it, turn 1, they say ok it resolves. Then they kill it next turn. Playing Mono-red, you have no answers. Playing WUR Quickdraw, you can Daze their kill spell and then swing for 4, and follow up that swing with potentially more on the next turn. In UR Delver you can FoW their removal spell, etc. Burn is probably the least effective place for it (though it obviously makes the deck better) because the opponent has a choice of how to interact with it.