After reading Hollywood's tournament report and the rest of this thread, I am inclined to agree. A lot of times, racing is the answer. And many people also have the misconception that you need to use LED asap and go all in with it. Holding onto it or leaving it uncracked leads to situations that allow you to come back from games that LEDless would most likely not have.Originally Posted by K1w1
I agree with K1w1, the first card to come out in most matchups with me is breakthrough. Otherwise i guess i side out one of several cards.
I don't like MTG, i just like legacy control decks.Esper stoneblade
I have to agree. LED stays in my Deck more and more. At first I boarded them out for antihate and could not finish the game before I encountered the next hatecard.
Played against GW Maverick last weekend and was to lazy to board anything after I won G1. I scooped against Turn 1 Cage. Choose to go (still didn't board anything...it was late and I was lazy and it was no tournament...just fun game with BBQ Sideevent :-P) and raped his hand including Cage and Ooze :-P
LED can just do awesome things in this deck an can almost always bring you to your Cabals before the hate hit the table on the go.
Most of the time I tend to do some -1 on a few cards to bring my answers in. Breakthrough is also a good card to board out if you don't need its speed and want a more grindy game 2. Never ever board Breakthrough out on Combo matchups though.
On another Topic: I am torn between 4 Study or 4 Imp (instead of 3 of one of them). Have 4 Breakthrough and 4 Lootings put I don't like the idea of cutting 1 Breakthrough Maindeck. Other option is 3 Study / 3 PImp for a 10th Rainbowland. And I cannot decide between Memory's Journey and Purify the Grave in my Sideboard :-/
I play pretty much the same deck - Dread Return + a Land, it's pretty damn consistent fwiw.
me too!!! :)
What do you guys think of the Gravecrawler board strat that Adria has adopted? Also, in regards to that list, he only runs 1 DR, yet he runs 3 DR targets in the board. The odds of flipping both DR and the target is much tougher than lists running 2-3 DR. I suppose his targets aren't really made for "comboing" out, but rather utility creatures that come into play should beating down with Ichorids / zombies fail. It's more a convenience and plan B more than it is the focus, like with Flayer lists.
Personally, I have an odd gut feeling about passing the turn when the win is locked up. For that reason alone, I might be leaning towards a Flayer build. It's interesting to see the quad build do well though.
And while I'm on the discussion of lists, I remember a few people mentioning (Necro in particular) that Bloodghast would work well in a Flayer list. While Daniel Rude's 9th place list does not opt to run Flayer (FKZ instead), he adopts the ghast plan. Any thoughts on that list?
I think Gravecrawler is just worse than Nether Shadow most of the time, having activated a Bridge and having a land on board is a bit much to ask for sometimes.
I agree. I believe that the use of Gravecrawler for Dredge has been discussed ever since it was spoiled, and the consensus was that the requirements for it to be effective don't fit very well with the current configuration of the deck. It was also mentioned that Ashen Ghoul might be worth considering (note that its creature type is "Zombie", not "Ghoul") in a deck with Gravecrawler (as Putrid Imp is really the only Zombie we have other than the ones that come out of Bridge from Below), but that would really look like a different deck altogether.
Come to think about it, that deck sounds like fun.
May we request for a link for that list? Thanks in advance.
Kind Regards,
jares
I agree. I believe that the use of Gravecrawler for Dredge has been discussed ever since it was spoiled, and the consensus was that the requirements for it to be effective don't fit very well with the current configuration of the deck. It was also mentioned that Ashen Ghoul might be worth considering (note that its creature type is "Zombie", not "Ghoul"
Come to think about it, that deck sounds like fun.
May we request for a link for that list? Thanks in advance.
Kind Regards,
jares:-)
The one Dread Return and the numerous dread return targets,in the SB, does not make any sense to me either. That guy got first place in the tourney though. Either he got uber lucky or he knows something we don't.
Eh, as much as I push the "your average dredge player is an unskilled lucksack" argument, I don't think wasting SB space on Dredge Return targets you'll never use is as bad as the other atrocities we've seen.
To completely debunk the 'unskilled lucksack' argument for this particular case, the pilot of that list has placed many times in Europe with several variants of dredge over the years. I can find two instances in the past month where he piloted LED/Looting, both great finishes in decent-sized tournaments (53 and 131 players respectively).
Given that it seems like this Adria person seems to know what he's doing, the question I would like to ask is this: is one Dread Return enough to support one DR target in the deck? I guess that the answer to that "yes", but I always assumed that it would be somewhat unsafe given that you're less likely to get the Dread Return when you need it. I would certainly like to look into the figures that would support/disprove that conclusion.
I'd be interested to know if anyone might disagree, and why.
Cheers,
jares
Hypothetical question time: With a generally overall solid list and sideboard, a working knowledge of how to mulligan, a little luck and some good draws, do you think this deck is near unbeatable?
Technically in some environments, yes, but that's sorta obvious (Basically metagames unprepared with no GY hate)
But as far as Real legacy environments go, unbeatable is too strong of a word to say, even game 1's are not 100% whether people have main deck scavenging ooze & other tricks or not, but game ones are definitely in our favor.
I can say that if you want to play a deck that forces your opponent to answer you or you'll blast them out of the water, this is one of those decks to push with.
Last edited by feline; 08-12-2012 at 05:13 PM.
Primary legacy deck High Tide primer
You having played in the most recent Starcitygames tourney, you are asking the rest of us this question!
I think the deck is well positioned right now in the meta. When half of your opponents use surgical extraction as the go to hate card it makes cabal therapy better.
The only matchup I feel I could lose no matter what I do right is Reanimator and of course belcher. Not saying Reanimator is an auto loss, just if they get a good enough draw there is nothing we can do.
So all you need is a little luck. You know, avoid that kid packing the playset of Leylines and surgical extractions during a tourney. Also, hope your deck doesn't poop on itself.
The biggest reason I think dredge hasn't been a DTB lately is the difficultly of playing the deck.
It's really strong right now. The only dangerous hatecard around atm imo is a very early Ooze [in worst case with mana open] on turn 2. Other than that, with very tight plays, and a little bit of luck... Yeah it is really really strong. I wouldn't say unbeatable but above-average strong.
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells
:16:- (See, now Erratic Explosion's a deck)
Legendary Creature - Horror
Haste, Hexproof, Double Strike, Trample
Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells is indestructible.
Permanents you control can't be sacrificed or copied.
Whenever Kenjawn, Mutator of Cells attacks, defending player gets liver cancer (This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)
13/13
From what I've seen of Adria's older lists, he's always favored more consistent dredge lists over FKZ / LED lists, which would explain why his 75 leans more towards a grindier quadlazer. The DR isn't meant to be a "focus", and definitely not something he cares to hit every game. See it as more of a "fallback" plan. The difference in having 1 instead of 0 DRs though adds that dynamism to the deck that quadlazer is lacking. I think he recognized this fact and has found a way to incorporate a singleton into his list without giving up too much consistency.
I've always been a proponent of the notion that the only thing holding dredge back from being a true elite deck is itself. More often than not, the luck involved with your dredges will dictate your wins and losses. Yes, there are other factors: format, hate, playskill, etc, but not many other decks in the format can actually lose to itself. I think the idea of not having absolute control of your deck also drives top players who strive for consistency away from this archetype as well. When the deck works, it's pretty much unbeatable. When it doesn't, it's very much dead in the water.
I like how you put it, as I also went through a phase where I used only one Dread Return with no DR targets in the main deck, and this build also successfully had me perform as well as my other builds. The difference, though, is that I packed an extra DR in the SB for whenever I would insert a DR target, fearing that having only one DR in the deck would induce situations where I would have the DR target without having a DR.
This (playing only 1 DR amidst several possible DR targets in my 75-card list) is something that I honestly haven't tested/calculated too thoroughly, and I'll surely be looking into it.
Kind Regards,
jares
Basically, either parts you add to the deck increase the chance of DRing a DR target, whether you add a DR or a target, by the same amount. Since that's the case, I would advice adding DRs instead of targets when you already have the target you want, because, at least, DR can work without a DR target.
If you fail to explain the reason behind your choice, technically, it's the wrong choice.
Zerk Thread -- Really, fun deck! ^^
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
