No. A fluke would be that Countertop deck that got first place about a year back or so despite the Maverick/Blade Control meta. Countertop has BARELY made presence since.Originally Posted by RogueBuild
A deck that is a DTB is not a fluke. It's a step up: a meta-game deck.
Devil does deserve one of those slots. I still don't believe that makes it good enough though.
The problem with Chaos warp or anarchy is that you have to have sufficient land to cast them. If you have 3-4 lands and an antihate card, you usually do not have enough cards left over to punch through a deck that hasn't had to spend much to stall you. That's if you even resolve your antihate.
Not to discredit SCG, but I do not believe the average Legacy SCG player knows much about Legacy in general. Just because burn top 8's a couple times doesn't make it a good choice necessarily. Similarly Pox isn't such a hot deck despite a placing here or there. Occasionally you have a player who gets lucky in pairings/in the meta with a deck like this that they place, but that doesn't mean the deck is solid outside of that. On the aggregate, burn does not do well consistently. And that is mainly because of the sideboarding issue above.
I hope devil is more playable than I think it is. Red has seriously few considerations for legacy playable cards outside of a splash here or there. Only Black has it worse off. These two colors are not powerful currently.
Matt Bevenour in real life
wow the word "testing" makes me want to murder.... me.
You test with friends, you know how your friends play, you learn to play around your friends. This is not an assumption, but a psychological fact. Testing is garbage.
I am not saying do not do it. I play test, to see how a deck runs. I do not play test to get any kind of real knowledge of a particular deck.
Playing in a tournament is considerably different than sitting in a room with friends trying to figure out when to cast a Braintstorm, or Zenith for a Dryad Arbor.
having 400 play tests for a deck is nothing, with the exception of being an absolute waste of your time.
Burn is a deck to beat. Deal with it. It got real legit with Vexing Devil.
This board, which as I have stated before, is filled with people who do not sign up at tournaments with the intention to play Burn. Every other person I have talked to, is wildly upset about the card. Because Red finally has something legit for Red, and not just a combo splash card.
The idea that someone would not put a 4/3 in their deck that only cost R to cast tells me, that those people have never played Burn in real time. Trying to decipher always being outmatched, and outnumbered on the actual board, in a tournament.
Also the correct play for the opposing player would be to take the 4 damage, and get rid of the creature. I have had 4/4 Figure of Destinies Dismembered by more Fish players than I can remember. This happens because a 4/4 4/3 3/3 are all difficult to deal with. Taking the damage and rolling with the punches is in most cases the logical choice. Logical to Maverick, Stoneforge, and Dredge.
Most of the other good decks can deal easily with the creature, or win fast enough they could care less. I beat Stoneforge, Dredge, and Maverick when I get creatures on the table. Without creatures these are difficult matches.
This is what happens when you cast Vexing Devil. The opponent has to decide if they want to take 4 damage once, or maybe 8 over the next two turns. If i resolve a Devil turn one, and pass turn, and my opponent drops a creature, I am going to Burn it, letting 4 damage pass though. Every time for the first two turns.
Also it was argued a few pages back, but. It would go turn one, Vexing Devil, turn two Goblin guide. Unblocked by turn two you have the possibility of 6 damage, maybe 9 if you also drop a land followed by a Bolt. the other way around, turn two you are dealing only 4 no bolt and a cast Devil, or 7 with a Bolt and Devil.
The best bang since the big one!
Questionable content deleted. Shit's kinda over the top, and I suspect you know it. Try to keep it civil. -zilla
Ok, I'll try again... murder, in short, is the unlawful killing of another human being. What you describe would be called suicide; hence the Deck called Sui-Black where at lest in the old days you where almost as likely to kill yourself as your opponent. (see I even made it MTG related)
2nd Are you really that ignorant to think after all my various posts about holes in people's testing, statistical data, or just inaccurate representations that I don't know how to design an experiment? Which is what testing really is.
Over 400 matches split between 2 different Burn builds (and their matching philosophies) in which I played against somewhere about 250-300 different people, many of whom I had just met. The purpose is to replicate a tourney situation as best I could. The only thing I could have done to make the testing more scientific would be if I had 2 other people playing the 2 decks so that I could not be a variable.
I realize use big words some times, not just a bunch of small words pushed together, but just because you don't understand what I'm saying or you can't take the logical step to conclude I might know a little something about how to design an experiment to test a theory doesn't in anyway weaken my argument. It just means I am thinking and testing on a level far beyond you.
Lastly, you might call 400 test matches a waste of time, but MTG as a whole could be seen as a waste of time.
Last edited by RogueBuild; 04-13-2012 at 01:13 AM.
Two warnings in the last three pages... where's the effort guys? I'm sure we do better than that!
Burn has the best thread ever!
Cheers,
jares
@RogueBuild
You might find the following useful in your build:
- Bonfire of the Damned, {X}{X}{
}, Sorcery, Mythic Rare; Bonfire of the Damned deals X damage to target player and each creature he or she controls. Miracle {X}{
Then again, any card with Miracle is bound to induce inconsistencies without the proper supporting cast.
Regards,
jares
I'm surprised when there really isn't much to talk about.. at least until recently when Burn got 2 Bombs, one that is obviously going into the core (Devil) and one that pends testing for the right number (Wrath).Two warnings in the last three pages... where's the effort guys? I'm sure we do better than that!
Burn has the best thread ever!
Cheers,
jares
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
You're putting way too much faith into an outdated message forum with apathetic mods/admins. The decks listed in a certain category on this website really have no bearing on the current Metagame, as Nic Fit is not even a deck anymore and blue based combo (Hivemind, High Tide & Dream Halls) is out in numbers. Sneak Attack is listed in DTB & that deck is a pile that spends the entire early game assembling their combo, playing their combo & then still not winning after doing both. Yet Dredge is somehow not good enough, even after getting Faithless Looting & putting up pretty damn good results.
Maybe the DTB section just doesn't count SCG tournaments or something, but there's a fairly big Legacy tournament every single Sunday and these forums don't seem to keep up with the weekly Metagame.
lol. Totally putting in my signature. I knew I had that dude on my ignore list for a reason.
The Source's DTB criteria is objective and based on worldwide tournament results, it is also updated monthly,(although the update is a little late this month). Every deck in the DTB is here because of results, and not just insular results like the SCG weekly tournaments. Perhaps you are simply ignorant that Nic Fit sees wide play in Europe, or that Sneak Show has continued to put up solid numbers, including in SCG top 8's. Perhaps you also weren't aware that Dredge numbers fell off by a large amount in February, and that's why it fell out of the DTB forum, it has since rebounded and will be almost assuredly moved back to this forum on the next update.
However this thread is about BURN, not your uninformed opinion about the Source's DTB forum.
I remain mildly skeptical about the Devil and the Miracle, though I agree both need to be extensively evaluated in actual play.
For the Devil I think the most logical cut is Figure of Destiny, it stands out the most for being slow and only really good when your flooded.
I agree. Figure of Destiny usually also shares this spot with Keldon Marauders, and I expect these two creatures to be benched in favor of Vexing Devil as soon as it becomes legal.
What seems to have not been pointed-out, though, is that having a "sufficient" number of Creatures (not sure what number would be the best estimate; 12 maybe?) makes Vexing Devil's weakness in the late game a bit more acceptable, in the same way that a top-decked Goblin Guide would fare somewhat better alongside another creature (say, an Unearthed Hellspark Elemental). Unfortunately, it won't have Haste, so that makes it that much worse. Of course, this projection is purely situational, but is a reminder that Vexing Devil is simply a creature masquerading as a Burn spell.
Cheers,
jares
Didnt someone just mention a 2cc PW? Looks like burn might of received 3 bombs!I'm surprised when there really isn't much to talk about.. at least until recently when Burn got 2 Bombs, one that is obviously going into the core (Devil) and one that pends testing for the right number (Wrath).
If for the moment we ignore Thunderous Wrath, then I would probably play 14-15 creatures in the current "normal" build. If Vexing Devil pans out, It would probably be something like,
4 Vexing Devil
4 Goblin Guide
3 Hellspark Elemental
3 Keldon Marauders
It's unclear to me currently if Thunderous Wrath will end up taking any of the slots that are currently filled by creatures.
Hi.. yeah I mentioned it in the SHITSTORM thread but everyone dismissed it as impossible.
Its not a bomb though. By the time you hit a relevant ability you should have already won the game. Its not Burn material.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
I thought so! Youve been calling em left and right man Lol. Im not sure how to rate this guy, on one hand ya burn should be winning early, on the other its still a filter engine built for burn since everything in the deck serves the same purpose besides lands. My gut tells me your right though.
I agree. This Planeswalker just causes more tempo loss, and also actively induces inconsistencies to Burn's line of play because of its +1 ability. It might be worth exploring in other deck archetypes, but certainly not in this archetype.
It's good to finally see a Planeswalker for just
Kind Regards,
jares
I've been testing Sulfuric Vortex recently, and I've become very happy with having [2x] in the main deck, so I would probably use the following configuration based on your suggestion:
- [4x] Vexing Devil
- [4x] Goblin Guide
- [4x] Hellspark Elemental
- [2x] Sulfuric Vortex
I'm not sure how the rest of your deck looks like, but if we were to just play around with these 14 slots, that's how I would run it based on the meta that we're currently up against. Having the full set of Hellspark Elementals will likely be able to help with late-game Vexing Devils, Goblin Guides, and land drops.
Cheers,
jares
I'm always hesitant to go so far as to say that something doesn't even deserve testing, but Wrath really seems to go in the "just won't work" category. I'll be interested to see if I'm proven incorrect about this card.
Especially in burn, where a typical game using a typical build sees so few draw steps.
Most people blindly suggest new cards for decks. True contributors also suggest what to remove. It's not about what's good, but rather what's better than the current selections.
So using this site:
http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/for...?format=Legacy
Is outdated and apathetic? Monthly updates is apathetic? Active quality control of posts in DTB section is apathetic?
This is the worst planeswalker. I'd rather run:Didnt someone just mention a 2cc PW? Looks like burn might of received 3 bombs!
Orgg
Fickle Efreet
Goblin Goon
Goblin Mutant
Goblin Psychopath
Lesser Gargadon
Lithophage
Mijae Djinn
Soulgorger Orgg
Browbeat
Lava Dart
Ember Shot
Over this shitty planeswalker.
Ya ive been up for a looong time when I came across that dude, kinda missed some of the pertinent language on his +1. Shame cause a 2cc PW would be hella cool.
Oh my god why Vexing Devil is a 60 or more USD for playset? I dont think this is the real value for them..............
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