Avacyn Restored Card Discussion [SIMMERING POT OF FECAL MATTER]

[SpikeyMikey]

Odds that Miracle Wheel will be banned inside of six-nine months: 50%, imo.

Or that it'll cause something else in a deck with it to get banned; LED, B. Wish, Past in Flames, Tendrils, etc..

I'm no storm guru, but I'm having one hell of a time trying to put together a good storm listing using this card. Not that I think it's not good, but RUW isn't getting there. The tension between the artifact sources you want to run to give you some mobility out of wheel (so you don't necessarily have to get to 7 mana before you can use it) and the sorceries that are nuts with PiF is very difficult to control. There's just not enough room to run enough dig, enough acceleration and enough disruption. Don't get me wrong, Reforge is amazing and once my version gathers steam, it's unstoppable. You can draw your entire deck and storm for 60+, but it's significantly slower to goldfish than ANT or even High Tide. I was hoping for something that could consistently go off turn 2, and this isn't it. Maybe WBR or UBR would be better, but I like having the heavy red rituals to support PiF and Reforge.

Does anyone have a *good* storm list using RtS? C'mon storm players, this is your cup of tea, you should be on this...

[Namida]

Does anyone have a *good* storm list using RtS? C'mon storm players, this is your cup of tea, you should be on this...

Like I said, Rome wasn't built in a day--which is literally the amount of time that this card has been known to us. Look at the first decklists playing Ad Nauseam, and you'll see what I mean.

[SpikeyMikey]

I feel like you have to be playing white. There's no way to run enough disruption when you're using discard or counters in a deck with draw-7's, I learned that a dozen years ago playing Underworld Dreams. And you need more than just Wheel 2.0 for dig. I'm running 4 Reforge the Soul, 3 Faithless Looting, 2 Ponder and 2 Personal Tutors, plus 3 Gitaxian Probe and 4 Manamorphose. But then you throw in 4 Rites, 4 Seething Song and 7 Rits (I cut a Pyretic), 3 PiF and 5 Chant effects and suddenly you've only got 19 slots for win conditions and initial mana sources. That's really sketchy, especially if you have to Tutor to set up a Wheel (so you need 4 mana, 2 for Wheel and 2 to get started Ritualing again afterwards).

I thought about trying to set up a Megrim/Dreams win condition, which should cut down on the amount of acceleration you need, but you don't gain anything since you're just replacing accel slots with additonal win-con slots. If you build it glass cannon with no protection, you can get significantly more initial mana sources, but than you're just playing a worse version of Belcher/SI.

[Greenpoe]

Like I said, Rome wasn't built in a day--which is literally the amount of time that this card has been known to us. Look at the first decklists playing Ad Nauseam, and you'll see what I mean.

That's good considering how eager Wizards have been to ban stuff lately- Mystical, Survival, Misstep. Hopefully people will build not-broken storm builds for a while so Wizards thinks the card is fine and not ban it. Or, at least if it does prove to be busted, let's hope that Temporal Mastery gives a sufficient boost to control to balance everything out so the meta will adapt just fine and nothing gets banned.

[Humphrey]

Actually how can you guys say this card is bad in a belcher shell? True the lists still doesnt run protection, but so does Belcher and it wins tournaments. But adding Reforge and Pif instead of Belcher it increases the chances not to fizzle and if you do just try again next turn. Actually replace some of the cyclers with discard or Blasts and your good to go.

[Cire]

Lol.... with some mana elves.... I know its too expensive but a 5 mana 8/8 that makes one of your mana dorks a 5/5 is not that bad....

[dahcmai]

He's cute, but without evasion or trample, I wouldn't even think about it. Fatties just ask to get chumped in this format too much and raced by something you can't block back well with.

Anyway, back on wheel.

I can barely see using it as a 2 of in TES at the most and even then I really don't like it. It's a crappy wish target so Diminishing Returns would stay in the SB as the normal back up. The biggest problem with it is the timing of when you'd cast something like this out of that deck.

You don't want to cast it during your draw step as a top deck since you can't drop your artifact mana before then. You're even limited on how much ritual red mana you can gain before then also. Even trying to set it up at EOT so you are a little prepped into it leaves you open to a counter and stuck in top deck mode if it's countered.

As for TES, it's only good as a top deck for when you fail to punch through a counter wall. If you already failed to punch through it's probably not going to help unless you get lucky.

The only time it's decent is casting for the 5 cc alternative. It's not so bad in that case. Dump hand, use mana to cast it, etc... Might as well play Ad Nauseum at that point. It's better at getting 7 cards when you can choose to get more. I guess it might have a spot if your curve is heavy for some reason.

Past In Flames or something like a Belcher Shell seems like the only way you are going to efficiently use it.

By the way, Defense Grid is looking better and better all of a sudden with these Miracles. I went and picked me up a few just in case new Wheel has a spot somewhere. The old Draw 7 decks of Vintage used it to keep people from Force of Willing things while you showed them all your artifact mana. Safe to say that practice might be back, especially with the way you guys were talking about wanting white for disruption. This one is colorless and easy to cast out of a Belcher Shell.

[Namida]

I think that trying to shoehorn Reforge the Soul into currently established decks is a recipe for failure, so hell yes it's going to be shitty in TES. The card is comparable to Ad Nauseam, but not inferior because you can play four of them in your deck with no fear and you're allowed to play cards like extra copies of Tendrils or Past in Flames for redundancy. The card easily facilitates multiple attempts at going off too because you can just blow your whole hand into disruption and just topdeck this card to be right back into the game. I can't say that I'm a champion deckbuilder so I can't just spit a decklist out to substantiate my claim, but I think it's definitely shortsighted to assume that the only way you can use this card is to play it in something you could equate to Belcher.

[Lord Seth]

Reforge the Soul

first reaction: "Oh shit! Oh no, they did it ... at 2cc!"

first thoughts:
- ridiculously broken: Wheel of Fortune at 2cc, why didn't they make the miracle cost 2R like the original (banned) Wheel of Fortune?

Wheel of Fate had its cost be 1R and was fine. Its downside (the wait) counteracted the lower mana cost and we ended up with a card that was absolutely not broken.

Now to be fair, I believe Wheel of Fate's drawback was more hampering than this card's drawback. Still, you can't just point to the cost by itself and declare it broken.

Even the normal cost at 5cc seems playable.

Wheel of Fortune at 5 mana likely isn't broken.

And it doesn't remove itself like Temporal Mastery does!

This is open to nowhere near as much abuse as Temporal Mastery would have been had it gone to the graveyard.

- It is perfect for Burn: Why would anybody now play something different than Burn? Burn got a lot of really strong spells with Avacyn Restored (Devil, Wrath, Reforge).

It looks awful for burn. By the time drawing the card would be useful, you want to have won already, which is hampered if you draw the card before that point.

I do think the card will see play, but I doubt it'll be in burn.

- I'm almost certain that it will be banned very soon. If even Mark Rosewater said that it might happen ...!

When and where did he say this again?

[KobeBryan]

Wheel of Fate had its cost be 1R and was fine. Its downside (the wait) counteracted the lower mana cost and we ended up with a card that was absolutely not broken.

Now to be fair, I believe Wheel of Fate's drawback was more hampering than this card's drawback. Still, you can't just point to the cost by itself and declare it broken.Wheel of Fortune at 5 mana likely isn't broken.This is open to nowhere near as much abuse as Temporal Mastery would have been had it gone to the graveyard.
It looks awful for burn. By the time drawing the card would be useful, you want to have won already, which is hampered if you draw the card before that point.

I do think the card will see play, but I doubt it'll be in burn.

When and where did he say this again?

Thats crazy. Burn decks biggest problem is when the deck topdecks. I don't know how many times you aren't able to draw business. Being able to just refill your hand for 2 mana would be enough to push the deck through for the finish.

[ivanpei]

I think we have to go UR or URB with the new wheel of fortune. Card has the potential to be busted especially with past in flames. The only problem with the miracle cost is that you can only play it during your draw step which is good for refilling your hand after fizzing but not too great otherwise. @ 5 mana, I don't see it being too great. Even diminishing returns with 3 mana floating ends up bricking at times.

Btw I'm guessing with can't float mana from upkeep to draw step to do something bonkers with the miracle wheel? Man I miss those led-mystical-ad nauseum days when you could float mana to draw step and go crazy.

The deck needs blue for cantrip and needs black for protection/extra rituals. I'm not sure if chant can be fitted in due to the intense colour requirements.

What about UR straight ledless? LED was busted with infernal and burning wish. Adnauseun also limited the amount of high cc cards the deck could play. Now that you can run 4 wheel 2.0 and personal tutor to find wheel, why play LED-wish-infernal? You can also play pact of negation now! LED/petals are also bad with past in flame.

4 rite of flame
4 desperate ritual
4 pyretic ritual
4 seething song
4 lotus petal
4 simian spirit guide
4 manamorphose

4 wheel 2.0
2 Personal tutor
1 past in flame
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
1 grapeshot
4 pact of negation

16 lands

[dontbiteitholmes]

Odds that Miracle Wheel will be banned inside of six-nine months: 50%, imo.

Or that it'll cause something else in a deck with it to get banned; LED, B. Wish, Past in Flames, Tendrils, etc..

The main problem with relying on Wheel is that Surgical Extraction is heavily played. If you Personal Tutor for it Extraction ruins that plan, if you Wheel and put a card you need in the yard you just let them draw 7 cards that are potentially Force, Flusterstorm, Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, Surgical, ect. all of which potentially could ruin your day.

[Suneloon]

Personal Tutor will off course see a lot in Legacy right after Avacyn Restored comes out, but I don't think it will not become a staple. It is simply to easely disrupted (Surgical Extraction, Thought Scour, Predict etc.) It is NOT Mysical Tutor!

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

The main problem with relying on Wheel is that Surgical Extraction is heavily played. If you Personal Tutor for it Extraction ruins that plan, if you Wheel and put a card you need in the yard you just let them draw 7 cards that are potentially Force, Flusterstorm, Pierce, Mindbreak Trap, Surgical, ect. all of which potentially could ruin your day.

To be clear, I don't think the deck will be the return of Hulk-Flash, but it doesn't really have to be. Wizards has stepped in to nerf combo for much less dominance (see; Mystical Tutor.)

If the format is blue vs. combo, I think they'll step in.

[dontbiteitholmes]

In most cases Wheel seems to just return Combo to it's previous role of completely curb-stomping decks that don't play blue. Whether or not it's worth it depends of how good it is vs. blue decks, and that variable is a little bit past what I can reasonably test by myself. We'll just have to see what happens, but this card seems capable of undoing all the work done by hatebears in evening up the combo matchup for non-blue decks. Worst case scenario I could see this being banned, but given all the tools we have as Legacy players I think seeing play after the 5th is the best way to determine whether it's broken or not.



EDIT: Posted right after IBA, didn't see his post. I pretty much agree. I don't think the card is going to break combo wide open, but it could make it near impossible for decks like Maverick to exist. For that reason I doubt it will last forever. In the mean time Mindbreak Trap seems a lot more playable.

[Offler]

In terms of EDH and german Highlander I see many cards to be autoincluded in Kaalia decks just because they are good for such format (high mana cost).

What really impresses me is Tamyio - new blue planeswalker. At CMC 5 its +1 ability works as Icy Manipulator, its -2 as some kind of sorcery for drawing, and -8 can be misused for any blue combo deck.

None of previous blue planeswalkers fit into blue as much. Good effects which need brain.

The red planeswalker is also surprise to me. Chaotic, low costed, but cannot be taken lightly.

[Suneloon]

For some sort of black stax?

Edit: yea well maybe not... When stax works, ur opp usually has a full grip, so being able to choose to discard to save permanents, is an option you DON'T want him to have...

[blaat]

BRAINSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS



Very nice card with the exile effect.
No past if flames for you, my friend.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

For some sort of black stax?

Edit: yea well maybe not... When stax works, ur opp usually has a full grip, so being able to choose to discard to save permanents, is an option you DON'T want him to have...

Not to mention the part where exiling prevents you from doing Crucible tricks.

Can't think of a use for this card. Since you already run Chalice in Stax, Braids would still be better if you just want more Smokestacks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Not to mention the part where exiling prevents you from doing Crucible tricks.

Can't think of a use for this card. Since you already run Chalice in Stax, Braids would still be better if you just want more Smokestacks.

Worm Harvest for casual maybe, but yeah no "real" uses.