My list is first and foremost a life from the loam deck and I want to see loam in each and every game, with that being said if mox had no drawback you would run 4 in every deck. In this deck mox has no draw back and even late game, the mana fixing eases any stain put on the mana base by itself or by the opponent. Two mox plus two land would not be a bad hand by many means and if the 5th card is a loam you are golden. 3 mox hands are going to happen with any card, a 3 knight hand would be just as bad.
Top is a mana intensive card in a mana intensive decklist, the deck will be drawing 3+ cards a turn and using massive amounts of mana to do so, it doesn't need to look at the cards before it draws them. The recursion in the list also allows many of the dredged cards to be recurred, pridemage/lands/beaters. Top is good for a deck that wants to go 1 for 1 with the right answers at all times, I want to power through my matches with an online confidant, loam or knight... in multiples.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
@lavafrogg: Congrats on your finish. I've being wondering the same, isn't 4 moxes and 4 loams a lot? I mean, the reason why you put those is for expecting to draw those on every opening hand and also on the rest of the game, but you just need one of both in a regular game. I used to play 3 moxes and a single loam. Maybe it's beacuse you don't run vindicates/maelstroms or hymns, that's why dredging doesn't hurt you a lot, since you can recycle your creatures with Volrath's stronghold, but for that you need an active knight. You list seems more agressive than regular ones.
3 moxes and a single loam are completely different that 4 moxes and 4 loams. I would also wage that you did not run cycle lands or lilianas to use with your loams. In a traditional rock build I would lean more towards GSZ for acceleration but with a loam list, diamonds are the way to go.
Almost every card in the deck has loam/mox in mind, from goyf to pridemage. You can also just dredge into your utility lands and loam them back sans knight.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I think I would cut a few cards to add a couple of vindicates. 4 Mox Diamonds with 24 lands is a lot. Maybe cut 1 of each to add vindicates to deal with planeswalkers.Originally Posted by lavafrogg
I don't know why people insist on trying to cut the reason to play loam decks, i.e. life from the loam and mox diamond. I sometimes switch loam #4 with the last wasteland but with the addition of knight it seems like a metagame call now.
Vindicates are really good but they sit in your hand until the planeswalker is on the board wrecking your face. I do not play top so dredging a vindicate is a real possibility. Monastery plus liliana is a great answer to any planeswalkers as is discard, creatures+removal/liliana or just drawing lots of cards and playing lots of dudes. We already have answers to other permanents, vindicate just does not do enough for its mana cost and speed.
I often side out some combination of mox diamonds and loams where I think graveyard hate will be coming at me in force, which is where the green sun zeniths and the deeds come in handy because I get to switch into a standard rock lists with removal+discard+dudes. But for game one you really just want to go land, mox> two drop, every game, or even turn one discard, turn two land, mox>knight/Lilliana.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Maybe it's because you play a non conventional rock deck. I like to have lots of answers as they are lots of kind of decks in legacy format. Not considering bad matches reduce greatly your chances of wining.
First of all, I consider you have a 10-20% chance wining against combo storm and burn as I can think right now even with sideboard. Vindicates are good because they are like a swiss knife, it just helps anytime and give us different options. You use so many slots on your sb changing rock play style than really fighting against bad matches.
It doesn't matter how fast or mana invulnerable you pretend your deck to be , it's always slow compared with what you offer as a threat (in rock deck) compared with what tier decks offers you as a threat.
"Fast" it's not what I like to call rock decks, considering the deck best perfomance is truly seen on mid-late game. I mean, rock players preffer to make the game longer, in order to play bigger threats than opponents in that time. That's when GSZ/knight/terravore is huge, and our opponents have already wasted their responses by then.
Tops helps on rock decklist because of the amount of fecth effects we have, and an imperious need of searching for answers, also considering you run 15 (1/4 of your deck) 3CMC that greatly increase your chances of losing 3 life by confidant; so, fecths+confidant+thoughtseize combined makes us lose lots of life and we need at least a way to control it.
I think you put a lot more effort on making it a fast deck than it's necessary. Imo I you recommend you to take it easy and "understand the tempo of the deck".
Last two events I was 3-3 against storm(one 2-1 loss, 1 2-1 win), 2-0 against reanimator, 0-2 against burn. That for sure looks like a 10-20% ration instead of a fighting chance. Especially seeing how I just changed the list to have a BETTER combo matchup than before.
Show me where dropping 1 mox, 1 loam, and a few pridemages changes my play style. Especially when I am bringing in more relevant cards.
I am not sure how a turn one Dark Confidant or Tarmogoyf or a turn two knight or Liliana is considered slow by any means, especially when the deck can clear the way with some discard to ensure that the bomb lands. Against these combo bad match-ups a turn one bob or goyf is the best way to start. I am also not sure what a "rock deck" can drop that can be bigger than any of my threats. I play 4 goyfs to get on the board early. Not all rock decks play goyf and instead will be answering my goyfs and knights with just knights. All of this is through my discard/removal and card draw...That all starts slowly on turn one. p.s. I have Terravore in the side as a GSZ target if i need the big guy.
4 Knights+ 3 Lilianas= 15? I'm not sure that I follow your math.... Confidant math is obsolete not needed in a deck with 24 lands, 4 mox diamonds(28 cc0 cards), 10 1cc cards and 15 2cc cards and 7 3cc cards, average cc=1.01. with almost half the deck being 0. Thoughtseize was dropped to 1 3 of when I added Inquisition to help with the life loss, if you are scared make the split 4-2.
I also made the list and actually play it, please let me know what I need to understand.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
One of the really good things about legacy is variation. There are tons of ways to do things. Some of them may not look that good to you but, by no means does that mean they're any worse off than what you're doing.
Frog- I'd say try to find a way to up the fetch count. You're playing a list that you say is loam based, yet you are running fewer fetches to abuse that than is considered standard. Also on lands, why board the bog? You have 4 diamonds and loam.
I'd also switch your deeds for Engineered Explosives. You are running 4 diamonds. There is no need to blow them up if you switch game plans.
Don't worry about vindicate. It's useful when you use it but you're right, they sit in hand a lot of the time.
Sheep- I'm also interested to see how you came to 15. I wasn't able to get there even when I included the board.
Also, the loam engine can draw/see far more cards than top. Top is played because it costs less. At 24 lands and 4 diamonds, there shouldn't be an issue with finding enough mana to keep loam active. Also, Loam works much better with Liliana than top.
I think it's pretty much agreed that combo and burn are this archetype's worse match up. Saying someones got a bad chance there is a Madden fact (i.e. he ate his food because he was hungry). If you've found some way to change that match to 30% or better, please share with the group as we'd all love to fix that.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Thanks for the defense daimon:) I really like vindicates but they just seem too slow for the effect.
Deed versus EE, I proably agree with the explosivesas a better choice and a better card in most situations, I played deed with the thought that I could play a more controlling role if I needed to with Lilliana as the only permanate on the board after the feed blows, with monastary to seal the deal. EE functioned as a vindicate of sorts and actually took vindicates maindeck spots before being cut.
That being said, it was just an idea and I have been working on the board in problem matchups.
I boarded the bog because I did not have one and one was lent to me right before the event. I added it as my last sideboard card and did not have any qualms about it. I only have wastland as a utility slot to searh for with knight. The other 2 lands were in the deck when I only played terravore as a beater(more like loam lands).
As for the combo matchup: with my list I really feel like turn 3-4 combo decks are very winnable both pre and post board. Discard into lilliana is actually relevant in some combo matchups. Against burn or turn 1-2 combo decks, sometimes you just lose, other times you pick of a key spell, land a gaddock teeg and move on with your day. It is not any worse than maverick vs fast combo and I would actually place it a few points ahead of maverick vs combo. If you really want to steal more game ones, you could always find room for GSZ into teeg in the main deck.
Also, you could add hymns in the board to go up to massive amounts of discard fit combo. The hymns would also help against stone blade. Maybe -3 chokes +3 hymn, or with the bog maindecked +4 hymn. The hymns would not help much against burn, but would be better than nothing(could buy time for an ooze to get online). Along the same lines, instead of hymns put gerrards verdicts. They double as extra discard against combo and contro and life gain against super fast aggro and burn!!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I've tried Hymn. Every time I think of it I remember the game against Springtide that went:
Turn 1, Land Thoughtseize
Turn 2 Hymn
Turn 3 Thoughtseize Hymn, Lose the game.
It's happened a couple times so I've been a bit jaded against the Hymns and other discard spells. I've opted for hate-bears and hymn.
If you're wondering why I don't run Leyline, it's probably had the worst experience... Against Belchor. Let's just say that it ended with him have 34 Goblins waiting to come in while his belchor was shooting me. It was turn 1 and I started with 2 Leylines in play.
Needless to say, I have bad luck against combo.
In other news I finished the videos (and most of the commentary). You can find them Here (http://www.youtube.com/damionblackgear) They're the only playlists that should be available. I haven't finished the deck explanation as It took me 23 then 17 minutes and I have a 15 minute limit.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
Lol, that's how I lost to springtide last tourney! I had him handless and at 2 life, he gets the spiral off and shots on my face. Game three I went turn one bob, turn two bob, turn three lose... Prolly shouldn't have kept.
I feel like I can get actual results against combo, even game I've. Goyf+discard just steals games. If your super jaded against combo, we have to be able to fit some spell pierces in here;p
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
haha. I had 2 Llawans in my 75 when Progen was popular. Oddly enough, Merfolk was a deck at the time as well.
Tinkering with some crafting theory. Here
I have been playing around with the 3 oozes mainboard. Those plus the bog should give us a fighting chance against dredge without any sideboard slots. That would free up 4 slots in the side for cannonists to bring in addition to GSZ into teeg. One pridemage would be in the board in the current ooze slot and that kind of makes me uncomfortable.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Hi, yeah I mistook the numbers, sorry for that, I didn't meant to bother you, really.
As I said before you don't run vindicates beacuse of the 4 loams of curse. The chance of wasting those sorceries there is too high, I understand that.
GSZ and terravore on sb, seems odd, you can explain me why you use those on sb? besides teeg of course. I mean in wich matches you use them (GSZ+Terravore) and what do you take off for them?.
I like leylines because it helps a lot against storm and burn, I cannot find any other cards that work better in this kind of matches.
I agree that explosives seem nice there.
@Lavafrogg: what do you think about Crop Rotation?. Since you rely on Knight searching for volrath's stronghold to recycle your creatures dropped by dredging, don't think you need an extra help there to find the land or any other utility land as well? It works nice with Knight too, avoiding wastelands, mana fixing, giving another chance to played cycle lands, etc.
No harm no foul:)
The green sun's zeniths are to give me virtually 3 teegs, oozes and vores. With the ooze and teeg you just want one in play now so it doesn't matter if you have to search for them or pay three. The vore comes in against stoneblade, maverick, anything with lingering souls, anything with loam and any random knight deck. In knight mirrors he is huge and his trample ability says that he ends the game in 1-2 turns, period. He is great for locking up or killing jaces as he can't be chump blocked.
I like to side out loams in any matchup where knight is more than enough late game ie rug, zoo. Mox diamonds come out in control matchups where speed is not an issue: stoneblade, nice fit.
For the crop rotation question I think you would be better off looking at entomb as a tutor. With entomb you can search for any loam itself, a utility land, you can search for retrace cards like ravens crime or worm harvest or a creature to recur with stronghold! I dont like the tutor approach but Finn always wanted me to play entomb in my list and as a one of to get ravens crime/worm harvest in the control match-ups it seems fine though.
I don't like leylines and prefer more versatile cards in this environment but if you know you are going to face burn and fast storm it could be the way to go. You would still need additional hate though seeing how you don't have a clock that can kill them before they bounce the leyline. The same thing is said for leyline of the void against dredge.
Last edited by lavafrogg; 04-18-2012 at 10:20 PM.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Nice.
Why don't you run any artifact/enchantment removal besides Deed? Isn't mud, bloodmoon, CB, aff or equipments an issue for you?
By entomb, I found that list some time ago, but entombing volrath's stronghold is just ok if you have already a loam in hand or gy, or when you've already a volrath and search for a creature, having 1 volrath on md seems very circumstantial.
Volrath's don't always got drop on the first, second or thrid dredge and having an active knight is not always possible.
Crop gives more versality on searches and some interaction with your oponent; sacrificing a bog with crop, makes it a reuseable resource, sometimes you need to use it again, and losing a wasteland to get it on your gy costs more.
I used to play 4 raven's, 3 loams and a single worm harvest.
It seems a single tormod or relic gives you some headache, have they?.
Also agree with the number of featchlands should be increased.
Leyline just give us time until he bounces it, by then we should had already some board pressence. the T0 drop ensure us at least time for dropping a teeg and try to get the game longer, meanwhile he searchs for the bouncer/removal. I lose so many times to a T1 combo, and it sucks.
I don't like Leyline of the void in any case. I've read some many articles saying that we need to stop using it trying to fight Rea o Dredge :/
For artifacts and enchantments I have 3 pridemages main board. The only artifacts that really see play these days are equipment in the 1-3 range so they have been fine. Enchantments have also been on the decline without survival or counterbalance tearing up the meta anymore.
I run three basics and mox diamonds to play around blood moon and decks like mud or decks packing blood moon are inconsistent as hell a timely discard spell or wasteland can give you plenty of time to seal the deal. Lilliana on the board is also almost an auto win against mud.
Most graveyard hate it a non issue in that it really only affects waste locks, a draw engine that can be protected and recurred and some late game recursion action. Extirpate is the only real card that can stop loam and it can be played around for some part...At least until you get to "draw at least three" and by that point you are +3 and they are -1 to remove your loams. In one of my recent rug matches I was crypt'ed twice in the same match and still played through.
Dark confidant is the back-up draw engine if anything happens to my graveyard and Lilliana plays great board control. I have tried to build the deck with as much resilience to losing life from the loam as possible.
I would rather play entomb than crop rotation and I don't play entomb. The deck draws cards and wants high numbers of all of its cards to ensure they are seen and don't get dredged away. Tutoring for one of's as a plan is just asking to leave yourself with no cute plays to make with your tutors. Most maverick lists are running fewer and fewer GSZ targets and more copies of their best cards as an example of this. Why play with a group of situational cards that you never really want to draw when you can run more of your best cards!
Lastly, I am not sure what is wrong with 6 fetch lands or what I would even cut to add more. I only run 5 duals, 3 basic lands and a few non basics. More fetch lands would leave me nothing to fetch! Especially seeing how you have the ability to re-use fetch lands at will.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
@lavafrogg: So, as long as you say it seem a pretty solid deck, are thinking in any changes on your current list?.
I'm going to a small store tournament tomorrow, any advice for my list?
The reason you run Vindicate still isn't just planeswalkers, but also things like Batterskull/Jitte/Swords in Game 1, and problematic creatures that make it past your cheaper removal. Mostly, though, it's because people DO run basics alongside their Duals, and Wasting them out of the game is more likely to happen when you can back it up with a Vindicate on their basic, or their remaining nonbasic. It's not necessary by any stretch, but part of the appeal of a heavy Loam/Diamond deck is that you can recur Wastelands. Being able to Vindicate is, in my opinion, pretty crucial to that plan. I also just love Vindicate in general, and I've never been sad to draw it. When it's sitting in your hand, it means you still have an answer to nearly everything in the format.
Anyway, I've decided to take another swing with Junk for the upcoming SCG tournament nearby. Here's where I left off last, and my current starting point:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Darkblast
2 Thoughtseize
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Vindicate
1 Life from the Loam
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Mox Diamond
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sylvan Library
4 Wasteland
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bayou
2 Scrubland
1 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Maze of Ith
1 Karakas
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Plains
Sideboard:
3 Pernicious Deed
3 Choke
1 Darkblast
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 Krosan Grip
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Extirpate
That's basically a few cards off from the build I last used to get a top 16 at Jupiter Games. I'll be making some changes I'm sure, but I think Junk might be actually a good contender again in the current format.
OMG awesome!! As far as I know you are the first person other than myself to play my list in a tournament! I wish you the best of luck!
Pointers that I have found with the deck:
1. Dark Confidant is the "best" card in the deck. Period. If he is on the board for any amount of time you win the game. That being said, I greedily always play him on turn one if I get the chance.
2. An active knight or Lilliana has the same effect. You should be using your goyfs, discard and loams to get a knight "mini planeswalker" or a Lilliana onto the board. They both will do their thing for a few turns and then win the game.
3. With knight, the only lands you can fetch in my list are monastery, stronghold and wasteland.....so attack with that bitch!.
4. Dont forget about the 4/4 first striker in monastery....everyone does.
5. You have a lot of card advantage in your list, much more than other decks. You will look down on turn 5 and see a full hand versus a top decking opponent. Use loam as a draw three if you have to and loam like crazy if you can. The list is not that loam dependent but it really gets going if loam is allowed to go crazy, most game one wins are from a unchecked loam.
6. That being said, I often side out 1-2 loams among other cards if I expect graveyard hate to be brought in. You can keep loa, alive through most of anything except extirpate. I let a loam get crypt'ed away against rug because he submerged my stronghold and I did not want to dredge away the recurring abyss that I had on the top of my library.
7. Mox diamonds can also come out if the matchup is a slower one...i.e. to bring in deeds. This deck actually sideboards really easy because no cards really depend on loam(normal aggro loam decks have crushers and assaults which need loams in all three games).
8. Hitting your land drops are super important. You will have a lot of cards in hand and will want to play multiples a turn, and want to leave mana open for cycle lands, and swords and ooze. Get basics, don't get stuck below 2 lands(minimum to cast loam).
9. Goyf is still ridiculous. In all of your hardest match-ups goyf is most likely the first card you want to play. Against aggro he is a wall, against combo he is a clock. Many people undervalue him due to the size of other creatures or more utility....but he is still a $100 card for a very good reason.
10. Know what is in your opponents hand. With 6 1cc discard spells if you see your opponents hand write that fucker down. You need to know when you can drop a Lilly and run the board, what he is using to fight loam, and what answers you need to dig out of your deck. If you see a jace and don't have board control...wasteland that bitch into the stone age. If he cant hit 4 mana he can't hit the board.
Well, there you go. Ten things I would say you should remember. Things I have been considering: The 4th wasteland main-board(again) three is really solid but I can't say no to the fourth three has been enough to punish the greedy though...maybe a bog should be main(or any knight utility land). The pridemage slot is the metagame flex spot. It has had 3 oozes, 3 witnesses, Elspeth, deed, ee and path to exile in it. Depending on what you see should be what you play. I have been leaning towards pridemages all the time due to equipment but ooze is really good if you expect a lot of graveyard shenanigans.
Good luck and I can't wait to hear how it goes!
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
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