I think the cards intention was to make aggro decks (tribal specifically) better against control. Making aggro decks better than control decks is ok: the land does jack shit against decks that drop a giant tentacle monster on turn 1-3. Considering that half of the DTB has Force of Will and only one aggro deck is a DTB, I think that's a fair card. Hell, it might bring back some other tribal decks like Goblins! Format diversity is always good.Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
No real reason not to run this AND Aether Vial though, especially as the current tribal decks don't play colored non-creature spells (except for Glimpse, which needs creatures to be cast anyhow and Standstill, which doesn't see play). Somewhat overkill in that Tribal decks are already good versus decks playing counterspells, but should still be good enough despite the added vulnerability to wasteland.
Then again, it isn't Tribal decks that'll end up playing this, it's midrange creature decks and Stompy. Tapping for colorless already puts it on par as far as utility lands are concerned, and not losing your 3+ mana creature (and entire turn) to Daze or Force is significant.
Tribal decks' problems run deeper than being soft to counters, though. Synergy counts less in modern Legacy than raw power, and tribal decks typically don't have that. I mean, Elves is the closest, and that's largely because it plays like a very slow-burning storm deck. A Goblin or Merfolk deck's creatures may synergize to get big and do stuff, but Knight is big and does stuff all on its own.
And, of course, these decks are still soft to removal.
This is specious. No one argues that Urza's block was good design; I think Finkel is simply referring here to earlier Magic, including the first half of the aughts and Masques through Time Spiral.
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I guess it depends on his definition of "used to". AFAIK, he wasn't playing much through a lot of what most people consider good sets (Ravnica, Time Spiral, etc...)
Tom? Is that you? I thought you were going to go work on DnD?
This.
Yeah, how about a new generation of counterspells which do it like Mindbreak Trap and exile the spells right off the stack?
Or how about a land that makes uncounterable spells counterable again? :D
You can start sideboarding Pithing Needle against this land. Oh, wait! It doesn't work either! Silly me.
I guess it's time to take the dust off good ol' Encroach.
Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".
Or maybe a little obscure uncommon land from Tempest, Wasteland I think it's called.You can start sideboarding Pithing Needle against this land. Oh, wait! It doesn't work either! Silly me.
I guess it's time to take the dust off good ol' Encroach.
"Want all, lose all."
I hear they might unban wasteland in legacy as well. I heard.You can start sideboarding Pithing Needle against this land. Oh, wait! It doesn't work either! Silly me.
I guess it's time to take the dust off good ol' Encroach.
By the time you can activate Wasteland, the opponent will have already activated the land once.
Unless you plan to play Kismet/Root Maze.
Please stop talking about whether Force of Will is broken or not. It obviously is, and rather than "the glue that holds vintage together" it would be better to call it "the rug under which you hide the filth until there's so much that you can no longer conceal it".
-So? Is that really broken? Having a creature in play? Like blue mages never faced an oposing creature before. If your deck can't deal with a successfully played creature, it deserves to lose.
How bad is weakening the mana base to play a soon-to-be-destroyed land, only to stick whatever creature you have in hand?
If this land is OMG BROKEN SO AWESOME, Boseiju, although worse, would see at least some limited play.
"Want all, lose all."
They get to resolve a whole one creature. They get to decide, which one it is (which they usually get to decide anyway, if they're skilled players), but even without this land, a tribal deck resolves at least one creature per game unless they get really unlucky. The advantage gained from the land is there, but it's very little.
Unless Faeries somehow manages to take a huge advantage out of this land, it's not going to warp the format. If Fae does, it might become a deck again though.
Of course, "although worse" in this context means that it is legendary, enters the battlefield tapped, produces colorless mana, shocks you ever time you use it and is generally used for a less powerful standalone effect (in aggressive decks).If this land is OMG BROKEN SO AWESOME, Boseiju, although worse, would see at least some limited play.
Eh... I understand what he's saying but I completely disagree. Thats like kinda like saying, "I used to enjoy a good battle when all we were using was crossbows. Then they invented guns and I threw up my hands in disgust."
I really like that land. I wonder if storm combo will play. End of turn LED lines of play sounds fairly ridiculous.
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FoW would hurt Modern, so I don't think it would be reprinted in the near future. Plus FoW wouldn't do anything against Cavern of Souls and free cards aren't that great in Standard than in eternal formats.
Yeah it's like everyone forgot how to cast Perish or some junk. Sorry that Mutilate starts looking better than counterspells, it's not like control wasn't already packing StP or Dismember. For all the hype spells like fucking Firespout get, you'd think someone would have gone, "Oh wait what about that card from 7th Edition, Wrath of God"
Besides, combo decks.
Also quit forgetting that this card has a tribal requirement, so it isn't like every rando-aggro-control deck gets to just toss these in and hope for the best. Goblins will probably try to come back for a minute, maybe Counterslivers if they can deal with not using the new land to pay for Daze or whatever.
If this set ruins Magic it'll be because no one will shut up about it, haha
Hmmm well I guess they'll have to unban Swords to Plowshares or maybe allow blocking again. That'll shake up the format ... maybe Brainstorm, Snapcaster and Force can come off as well that way everyone and his mother can play
4 x force
4 x stp
4 x snapcaster
4 x brainstorm
we'll call them the 16 amigos.
Nicewe'll call them the 16 amigos.
I think the main concern (at least mine) is that this just plugs right into maverick like everything else lately. 15+ spells that are uncounterable is nothing to sneeze at when they are knights and thalias, hell even moms. The other issue is that most of mavericks other creatures and spells could care less if it produces colorless. Really only pridemage and teeg. 4 cards.
I think some sort of stompy deck will be able to utilize this land the best. The creatures are more beastly and a bigger deal when they resolve. Lodestone Golem for instance would love this land. Angel Stompy with one of the new Hexproof Angels.
As for tribal decks, I am not too sure this will make them come back to top tier.
Elves doesn't care too much about counterspells and enjoys using all basics.
Removal spells/creatures were always merfolks problem.
Could help goblins resolve a key ringleader or lackey. Out of the tribal decks I think it helps this one the most since Goblins don't need colored mana very often, outside of their creatures.
Slivers would be cute to use this land in, but that deck is very color intensive and likes spells like Daze and StP. This land would hinder being able to cast those.
Deadguy Ale might use this over Aether Vial. Don't see this deck cutting lands because of it's dependence on Hymn, StP, and Wasteland. Tough to say if that would help this deck much.
I think this card will be playable, but not broken. I mean unless you are casting Emmy with this land then impact won't be too great.
Finally, what does this land do against Maverick? Weaken your mana base. That is all.
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