[Deck] Goblins

[Humphrey]

Goblin Sharpshooter is just better. Playing 1 MD and 1 SB should be enough against Tokens.

True but Shooter is useless, when no tokens around or to slow and gets removed. Sulfur Elemental has flash and split second so it removes the tokens for sure and can sometimes catch a jace.

[fimo]

What? Mono-red Goblins already ran Ports+Wastes and did quite fine in the past. Wastes+Caverns is Not going to be an issue. You also forget we run Vial. We're not getting Waste-locked.


It all depends on which lands you replace to give space to the new land. Replacing mountains? you are more open to mana screw, replacing waste/ports? you are weaker in the mana denaial game plan. It will for sure have some benefits though. Playtests will show what is best. Maybe, this will be the end of the mana denial game plan in goblins. Most of all, I m curious to see whether vials will still be an automatic 4-of.

[DragoFireheart]

I can see Aether Vials still being a four-off. Vials and CoS along with a tweaked goblin plan to simply over-run and overwhelm other players and maybe Goblins could become so powerful they are only weak to combo decks like TES and High Tide. I could see ports being dropped for Cavern of Souls. I always thought the mana-denial was Goblins secondary strategy while it's primary strategy was simply playing a shit ton of goblins.

[fimo]

I can see Aether Vials still being a four-off. Vials and CoS along with a tweaked goblin plan to simply over-run and overwhelm other players and maybe Goblins could become so powerful they are only weak to combo decks like TES and High Tide. I could see ports being dropped for Cavern of Souls. I always thought the mana-denial was Goblins secondary strategy while it's primary strategy was simply playing a shit ton of goblins.

Mana denial allows you to buy time to play shit ton of goblins. A primary problem is equipments. I m curious to see whether this new land will make TSH more efficient than tuktuk. If so, that s the big deal imo. Having a playable 2 mana cost goblin dealing with a an active jitte is of primary importance.

[Humphrey]

I agree Tin-Street is better than Tuktuk, unless you have a warchief out, or want to vial it to kill equipment at instant-speed..
If TSH is better than the benefits of staying monoR, why not splash for taiga?

Well i dismissed the mana denial plan with ports already. Its much more important to run less land and have a higher thread densitiy than trying to screw decks like (one mana is enough) Delver or (shitload of ramp) GW.

[jrw1985]

He is on drugs.
The amount of games we just flat out WIN by playing 1st turn Lackey on the play is absurd.
Arguing that Mav/Canadian can block it with cards like Dryad Arbor/Mother of Runes/Mongoose is stupid. I'd gladly trade a T1 Lackey with ANY of those. We're winning if we do. Also, we play removal. We can easily get lots of those out of the board, specially with SB Knesis.

He's right that it is bad on the draw against Mav, and probably against Esper too. But against Canadian, it isn't. They HAVE to trade you 1cc investment 1/1 with something like a blocker, Daze, Burn or even FoW. But that the BEST deal we can make. You rather they just burn something that cost 2 or 3?
You can even G1 agains Mav have dream hands, like Lackey T1, Instigator T2, with ANY removal (from the 9 MD we have), you just won.

Saying that Warchief is a must is also nonsense. It is an awesome card, but by no means is an automatic 4 off. I bet my right arm he haven't even playtested a list with Instigators and Chieftains.

Also, putting Lackeys on the SB is bad too. If you don't want them, just SB them out game 2-3. Easy.
And I don't even want to comment about the manabase...

I didn't read the article or see the list, but I've won the vast majority of games against creature-based decks where I've landed a Lackey T1 on the play and my opponent went for a blocker instead of removal. Dryad Arbor? Waste. Mom? Tarfire/Pyro/Gempalm. Tireless Tribe? Weirding. Goblins just kills when Lackeys are allowed to live. I will also gladly trade a Lackey for an opponent's 1-drop if Lackey can't connect otherwise

I can see Aether Vials still being a four-off. Vials and CoS along with a tweaked goblin plan to simply over-run and overwhelm other players and maybe Goblins could become so powerful they are only weak to combo decks like TES and High Tide. I could see ports being dropped for Cavern of Souls. I always thought the mana-denial was Goblins secondary strategy while it's primary strategy was simply playing a shit ton of goblins.

Cavern is actually really good against High Tide because High Tide will Force a T1 Lackey every chance it gets. They don't want to be under a clock, and Forcing Lackey is really the only way they have of doing that.

[jrw1985]

I just remembered that Descendant's Path costs only G2, not GG1. That's pretty good. Maybe even good enough to make Squee, Goblin Nabob playable again.

My only real worry about the playability of Descendant's Path is that it has a 1 turn lag. This lag also makes Wort pretty unplayable, but that's because Wort is a removal-eating creature. Path is much more difficult to answer, so it might actually stick around to be relevant. I'm gonna brew a list I think.

I fishbowled with a Descendan't path build and gotta say that it was wayyyyy tooooo slowwwwwww. There's not justification for spending T3 casting a spell that does nothing in a format as fast as Legacy. It was a nice idea, but doesn't work.

[Humphrey]

I fishbowled with a Descendan't path build and gotta say that it was wayyyyy tooooo slowwwwwww. There's not justification for spending T3 casting a spell that does nothing in a format as fast as Legacy. It was a nice idea, but doesn't work.

Thats like saying creatures without haste are unplayable. Ususally you should get a free creature on the next turn or get rid of a land and get buisness.
I also tested it and found it ok, but it was just a few games. The main problem with it, you have to board it out every match because if you board hate in it puts it on the bottom and your goblincount decrease to much.

[jrw1985]

Thats like saying creatures without haste are unplayable. Ususally you should get a free creature on the next turn or get rid of a land and get buisness.
I also tested it and found it ok, but it was just a few games. The main problem with it, you have to board it out every match because if you board hate in it puts it on the bottom and your goblincount decrease to much.

Humphrey, you crazy, boo. Any enchantment that does nothing is way worse than a creature without haste, cuz, ya know, creatures can still block. That enchantment don't do shit.

[jrw1985]

I'm posting too much.
What can I say? I'm excited about Avacyn Restored. Put a load of bids out on Ebay tonight. Hoping I win em all.

[Greenpoe]

The main problem with it, you have to board it out every match because if you board hate in it puts it on the bottom

This is a logical fallacy. Whether you reveal a Goblin or non-Goblin card, it'll dig one card deeper either way. That means it's just as likely to dig for your hate as it is to get rid of it. The goblin count issue is legitimate, but doesn't this card seem like more of a SB card anyway? You want to win game 1 off of speed mostly, right? (and CA from Ringleader/Matron in case the game goes long) But after sideboarding, you have to face extra removal, blue elemental blast or whatever else, and I think the green enchantment helps there as well as against any attrition deck in general.

[ScatmanX]

Just so people don't say I critique people without testing stuff, I did.
Played a smal tournament today. 4 rounds. won 3 then ID.
The list?

-----24 lands-----
4 Badlands
2 Auntie's Hovel
3 Mountain
8 Fetches
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port
-----22 dudes-----
4 Chieftain
4 Matron
4 Ringleader
4 Frogtosser Banneret
2 Goblin Piledriver
1 Mogg Warmarchall
1 Mad Auntie
1 Earqig Squad
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
-----14 removal-----
4 Tarfire
1 Forked Bolt
3 Gempalm Incinerator
3 Warren Weirdings
1 Stingscourger
1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

0 Vials, 0 Lackey, 0 Instigator, 0 Siege-Gang.
This was more of an experiment, to see what cards were better today, and if the manabase could support the loss of Vial and Lackey.
It did, but not that great. Mulligan was way worse, once I did not have the incremental advantage of Vial. Lackey/Gator were not all that missed, since removal took care of anything on the early game. But not running them made mulligans worse too...

Round 1 was against Canadian, and having 24 lands, with 4 Wastes and 3 Ports was awesome. And with the shitload of removal, it was hard for them do get anything through. Post side came in 3 Perish and 3 Relic, and he was demolished. The games took forever, and we went trough all our lands. Fortunately, they only run 3-4 Tropical, so once you make them unable to cast their guys, you should be winning.
Round 2 agains the Mirror. I mull and draw Weirdings game 1. Game 2 and 3 show that the plan is quite good against us. Instead of drawing Vial I got lands, and his tuktuk were useless, while not mine. I had more goblins he could not let uncheked, like Wort and MAd Auntie.
Round 3 a BW deadguy. He went for Sword UR, that got destroyed after connecting, and my shitload of removal got his Tokes with Jitte, and he could never connect with it.
Tested Cabal Therapy here, but had mixed feelings. Maybe Knesis would be better... Drawing them late sucked. And a 2nd Sharpshooter will make the MU MUCH easier, (like the Esper one).
Round 4 against Mav. 3 Perish + 3 Knesis + 2 Sulfur Elemental from the side, plus all the Removal MD made the MU quite nice after boarding.

I don't recommend this list to anyone, because it is not that good, but was quite cool playing it, and I had lots of fun.
Best play of the day was Frogtosser T2, Chieftain + Piledriver T3.
Earwig Squad removed 3 E.Plagues game 2 and 3 against BW. awesome card.

That said, on the big tournament this weekend I'll probably play the "stock" list.
(I had a point when started writing this, but am tired as hell and forgot...)

[joemauer]

This is a logical fallacy. Whether you reveal a Goblin or non-Goblin card, it'll dig one card deeper either way. That means it's just as likely to dig for your hate as it is to get rid of it. The goblin count issue is legitimate, but doesn't this card seem like more of a SB card anyway? You want to win game 1 off of speed mostly, right? (and CA from Ringleader/Matron in case the game goes long) But after sideboarding, you have to face extra removal, blue elemental blast or whatever else, and I think the green enchantment helps there as well as against any attrition deck in general.

Sideboard cards for goblins are generally narrow; anti-graveyard or anti-artifacts. This enchantment will hinder your topdecking hopes in matchups such as dredge or stoneblade. You will still have tin street hooligan for jitte, but he doesn't exactly synergize with this enchantment either.

I could be wrong but I believe this is sort of what Humphrey was talking about.

[Greenpoe]

Sideboard cards for goblins are generally narrow; anti-graveyard or anti-artifacts. This enchantment will hinder your topdecking hopes in matchups such as dredge or stoneblade. You will still have tin street hooligan for jitte, but he doesn't exactly synergize with this enchantment either.

I could be wrong but I believe this is sort of what Humphrey was talking about.

Descendant's Path reads:
At the beginning of your upkeep, reveal the top card of your library. If it's a creature card that shares a creature type with a creature you control, you can cast this card without paying its mana cost. Otherwise, put it at the bottom of your library.

I'm not sure you understand the card, or perhaps I don't, but Descendant's Path does not hurt your topdecking abilities other than in the sense that in multiples it's a dead card. It doesn't matter if your SB card gets put on bottom from a theory standpoint, because either the card goes into play or it goes on bottom. It helps your topdecking by digging 1 card deeper whenever you reveal a Goblin creature (which will be 50+% of the time), though. But thinking that it hurts your topdecking just because you see that x card gets stacked on bottom is wrong - you would not draw whatever card you reveal, no matter what it is. So it actually helps you find your SB cards.

[Humphrey]

In the short run it doesnt matter, but when more cards were revealed your sideboardcards are all stacked on the bottom where normally you would have drawn them. This doesnt matter when you run a lot of shufflle effects, though. But then its still the low gob count which makes the Enchantment kind of bad.

Well it definitly needs more testing, I dont want to dismiss it that fast.

[jrw1985]

Once we start running Cavern of Souls should we start cutting down on the number of Vials we play?

Or is the mana acceleration and interaction Vial provides still integral to the deck?

[ScatmanX]

Once we start running Cavern of Souls should we start cutting down on the number of Vials we play?

I don't think so. My testing have shown that Vial is an important aspect of our deck, and the mana advantage (not acceleration imo) we gains is absurd, leting we play out like no other legacy deck. Caverns in no way compare to that.

[Avatara]

I don't think so. My testing have shown that Vial is an important aspect of our deck, and the mana advantage (not acceleration imo) we gains is absurd, leting we play out like no other legacy deck. Caverns in no way compare to that.

I agree... without Vial, Ringleader has the tendency to flood our hand. During the short MM era I experienced with a goblin lord list without Vials and I was forced to reduce the number of Ringleaders.

[FTW]

A Goblin deck that main-decks Chalice of the Void? What's next? Trinisphere and 2-mana lands?

"SB" = sideboard, not maindeck. It has happened in the past.

Thanks for reinforcing my argument that people cannot read :D

Illiteracy FTL

[ScatmanX]

"SB" = sideboard, not maindeck. It has happened in the past.

Thanks for reinforcing my argument that people cannot read :D

Illiteracy FTL

Well, actually I had a CotV build, but didn't use it last night (and chose that weird list instead) because I don't have Chrome Mox.
It would be like this:

2 Badlands
7 Fetch
4 Montanha
4 Wasteland
3 Rishadan Port

4 Chrome Mox

4 Lacaio Goblin
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Matrona Goblin
4 Goblin Ringleader
2 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki

1 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
3 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Stingscourger
3 Warrens Weirdings

4 Chalice of the Void

SB:
3 Perish
3 Mindbreak Trap

2 Arc Trail
1 Goblin Sharpshooter

4 Tormords Crypt
1 Earwig Squad
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

It does not have Vial again, so it probably suck, but I just want to test it.
Seems great against decks overloading with 1cc. If I ever get to play this, I'll write something, but that probably won't happen very soon...