All B/R update speculation.

[Snap_Keep]

I think Counterbalance should be banned, there are some ridiculous Stoneblade / Counterbalance brews out there that are undefeatable.

[DragoFireheart]

Just like how Ancestral Vision, Lotus Bloom, Wheel of Fate, and Infernal Tutor were all so broken they should have been banned preemptively too, right?

Waiting four turns after casting the spell for the same effect isn't even comparable. Infernal Tutor is fairly bad without Lion's Eye Diamond. All of those card, while similar, have a large enough drawback that keeps them in check.

TM lacks that. In fact, it's better than *Time Walk as you can cast it on your opponents turn. The fact that you have to cast it the turn you draw it as your first draw is a minor drawback, what with Brainstorm and Jace being in the format.

From what I've seen, so far all you've said is that it's kind of like Time Walk, which is not by itself a decent argument to take a step that's been done with only two cards in the history of Magic.

- It's close enough to being time walk AND having the potential to be cast at instant speed is what makes it a bannable card. 3 Rounds against a Junk deck isn't enough to determine how good or bad any card is though.

*Edit: In some situations.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Waiting four turns after casting the spell for the same effect isn't even comparable. Infernal Tutor is fairly bad without Lion's Eye Diamond. All of those card, while similar, have a large enough drawback that keeps them in check.

TM lacks that. In fact, it's better than Time Walk as you can cast it on your opponents turn. The fact that you have to cast it the turn you draw it as your first draw is a minor drawback, what with Brainstorm and Jace being in the format.



- It's close enough to being time walk AND having the potential to be cast at instant speed is what makes it a bannable card. 3 Rounds against a Junk deck isn't enough to determine how good or bad any card is though.

That was just one of many I don't really think typing up the rest of my notes is worth it all the other rounds were quite similar.

Could you pretend to read what I posted before you start talking about what I posted

[lordofthepit]

Cleanup on aisle 5!

[DragoFireheart]

Could you pretend to read what I posted before you start talking about what I posted

YOU were claiming to have DEFINITIVE proof of your position. Your currently presented proof is crap. Don't feed me bullshit that you have "others but i dun wunna post them". Also, your comment was vague: it could have been referring to other Junk rounds or other decks. Too much vagueness.

Don't half ass your "testing" results and what you post. If all you are going to give me is 3 rounds vs a Junk deck, don't be surprised if you catch some slack.

How many decks did you test against? How many rounds? What was your deck list? What were their deck lists? Did you test against all of the DTB? Did you test against other decks that are commonly showing up but aren't considered decks to beat?

Until you can answer those questions, don't bother posting your "test" results.

[joemauer]

Hey DragoFireHeart, go throw together a broken list using Temporal Mastery and please show us it. Should not be hard to do since it is so broken.

[DragoFireheart]

Hey DragoFireHeart, go throw together a broken list using Temporal Mastery and please show us it. Should not be hard to do since it is so broken.

Considering I was never claiming to have such a deck list, no.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

YOU were claiming to have DEFINITIVE proof of your position. Your currently present proof is crap. Don't feed me bullshit that you have "others but i dun wunna post them".

Don't half ass your "testing" results and what you post. If all you are going to give me is 3 rounds vs a Junk deck, don't be surprised if you catch some slack.

I never claimed to have DEFINITIVE proof. I claimed to have tested the card and claimed in my testing it was far from broken. Then you freaked the fuck out claiming that it was broken and that everyone who had played the card in actual games was just wrong because you say the card is broken. You have offered nothing to support your position and when asked to do so you just brushed it off. If you want anyone to take you seriously offer something that contradicts what I am saying besides "because I said so."


I was playing the list from this article. You should read the rest of it and maybe you can get a better understanding of what this card does because obviously you have no experience with it. After you have read that then you should read this, and maybe even this. There has to be a reason none of these people are agreeing with you.

[joemauer]

Considering I was never claiming to have such a deck list, no.

This is where your argument falls apart. If TM is as broken as claimed(in need of the emergency banning) then it should be easy to throw together a list that just blows apart all the top decks.

[DragoFireheart]

I never claimed to have DEFINITIVE proof. I claimed to have tested the card and claimed in my testing it was far from broken. Then you freaked the fuck out claiming that it was broken and that everyone who had played the card in actual games was just wrong because you say the card is broken. You have offered nothing to support your position and when asked to do so you just brushed it off. If you want anyone to take you seriously offer something that contradicts what I am saying besides "because I said so."

First of all, I've provided plenty of reasons in this topic and various others. Just because I don't have test results doesn't make my arguments more or less valid.

Second, if you think I'm freaking out, then you need to take it less personally. I'm attacking your arguments and evidence, not you. If you feel like I attacked you I apologize.

Finally, your evidence is lacking. I bold various questions for you to answer. If you and others have tested said decks with TM, answering them should be easy. If you can't answer those questions, then your testing is not sufficient. I don't think what little you posted in this topic would be even considered in topics in the DTB section.

This is where your argument falls apart. If TM is as broken as claimed(in need of the emergency banning) then it should be easy to throw together a list that just blows apart all the top decks.

This is clearly a fallacy. SoTF wasn't considered broken for quite some time. It wasn't until it caught on that people finally saw how powerful it was.

The same can easily apply to TM. It may not seem strong at first, but enough tournaments results will show how broken/crappy it is.

[LOurs]

Imo, whatever the number of test already done at the moment, it is clearly not enough to get a clear opinion about the card.
This is really really too early right now to argue that the card is good or not on empirical basis, just really too early, let's be honest.
Now, it doesnt prevent anyone from having on opinion on it, but, right now, it remains pure feeling.

[joemauer]

This is clearly a fallacy. SoTF wasn't considered broken for quite some time. It wasn't until it caught on that people finally saw how powerful it was.

The same can easily apply to TM. It may not seem strong at first, but enough tournaments results will show how broken/crappy it is.

Survival was always a strong card. Vengevine broke it. Then wizards realized it probably isn't a good idea having a reusable, difficult to remove tutor in Legacy.

If you want to compare Temporal Mastery to anything because of it's subtle power then compare it to brainstorm.

Anyway, Time Walk is good when cast. A conditional Time Walk is only good in certain conditions.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Just because I don't have test results doesn't make my arguments more or less valid.

Yes, yes it does.

Second, if you think I'm freaking out, then you need to take it less personally. I'm attacking your arguments and evidence, not you. If you feel like I attacked you I apologize.

LOL, why would I need to take it less personally, you are the one freaking out.

Finally, your evidence is lacking. I bold various questions for you to answer. If you and others have tested said decks with TM, answering them should be easy. If you can't answer those questions, then your testing is not sufficient. I don't think what little you posted in this topic would be even considered in topics in the DTB section.

My evidence might be "lacking" but you have NONE.

Edit:
Also can you list your "reasons"

[DragoFireheart]

I was playing the list from this article.

No wonder you did poorly. Doesn't look like the deck is designed to take advantage of TM. Also, I find it disappointing that those articles barely talked about using Sensei's Divining Top or Personal Tutor with it.

Obviously if I slap SotF into a burn deck it will do poorly. Doesn't change the fact SoTF is banned.

My evidence might be "lacking" but you have NONE.

Edit:
Also can you list your "reasons"

I can see that you have no actual intent of validating your results. I'll take it that you're done arguing with me...?

Survival was always a strong card. Vengevine broke it. Then wizards realized it probably isn't a good idea having a reusable, difficult to remove tutor in Legacy.

If you want to compare Temporal Mastery to anything because of it's subtle power then compare it to brainstorm.

Anyway, Time Walk is good when cast. A conditional Time Walk is only good in certain conditions.

SoTF was a tier 1.5 card for quite a long time. It was tier 1 here and there but it was never an overwhelming powerful card.

A conditional Time Walk that can be cast at instant speed sounds pretty good to me.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

No wonder you did poorly. Doesn't look like the deck is designed to take advantage of TM. Also, I find it disappointing that those articles barely talked about using Sensei's Divining Top or Personal Tutor with it.

Obviously your list is better, where was that posted again? Caleb Durward talks about Personal Tutor here, he thinks that interaction is over hyped.

I can see that you have no actual intent of validating your results. I'll take it that you're done arguing with me...?

I would like to see your results, but you have none.

[DragoFireheart]

Obviously your list is better, where was that posted again? Caleb Durward talks about Personal Tutor here, he thinks that interaction is over hyped.

First, I never claimed to have a list. If I did, you might have a point.

Second, Channelfireball is not the infallible word of Magic the Gathering.

Third, since everyone and their mother wants me to do so, I'll try and make you all a vague deck list of something that can abuse personal tutor* in the deck post.

Edit: Temporal Mastery, not personal tutor.

[Koby]

The onus is on those claiming "Ban" to show the card/deck is broken. The status quo is easy enough to demonstrate that a card/deck is fair in the format.

[JDK]

TM lacks that. In fact, it's better than Time Walk as you can cast it on your opponents turn. The fact that you have to cast it the turn you draw it as your first draw is a minor drawback, what with Brainstorm and Jace being in the format.

Better than Time Walk, you heard it first on Drago FM.

[joemauer]

A conditional Time Walk that can be cast at instant speed sounds pretty good to me.

Yeah it does sound good. Who doesn't like extra turns?
Does it sound as good as drawing half your deck with Ad Naseum?
Does it sound as good as dredging half your deck with breakthrough?
Does it sound as good as casting green Sun's zenith for whatever hatebear will screw up your opponent?
Does it sound as good as cards like Hymn to Tourach, Life from the Loam, or Snapcaster Mage? Cards that have strong effects at the same mana cost with no set up required.


The argument wasn't even whether or not the card is good. Is it broken?

[DragoFireheart]

Since so many of you asked me for my "decklist" (which I never claimed to have), I'll give you something so you can berate me on how awful it is. Off the top of my head:

First, we're going blue. Here's a starting shell for it:

4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW

We're going for a more controlling base since we already have Jace. 22 lands of some configuration.

22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW

We now want Temporal Mastery. Multiples is bad, so 4 is not the number. Lets try three for now:

22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
3 TM

To fully abuse it, we want tops. This isn't counterbalance so we don't want the full set. Lets do three.

22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
3 TM
3 SDT

39 slots are filled, leaving us with 21 to fill. Lets say we wanted to try and fit this in a Blade Control deck. 4 SFM, 4 SCM, 1 Batterskull, 4 StP, 1 Jitte sounds good?

22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
3 TM
3 SDT

4 SFM
4 SCM
1 BSkull
4 StP
1 Jitte

That leaves us with 7 slots. Lingering souls is popular, lets put in 4:

22 Lands
4 BS
3 JTMS
4 FoW
3 TM
3 SDT

4 SFM
4 SCM
1 BSkull
4 StP
1 Jitte
4 LingerS

For the last 3 slots, lets put in Spell Snare since we need more counters.

22 Lands (some configuration of Tundras and Underground seas with other lands)

4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Force of Will
3 Temporal Mastery
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Snapcaster mage
1 Batterskull
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
4 Lingering Souls
3 Spell Snare

Alright, have fun telling me how terrible I am.