All B/R update speculation.

[DragoFireheart]

Clearly everyone does NOT have an equally valid opinion. I would rather consult a doctor with what their preferred way to deal with my recurring collapsed lungs than my mother.

- In regards to speculation within the context of a new magic card, everyones opinion is more or less worthless.

On a similar vein, when well regarded players' opinions/results line up with my own testing in the more obvious shells, the card is not obviously broken. (Note not saying obviously not broken).

From multiple sources, some with testing, some without, most with a ton of experience with magic: Miracle time walk too inconsistent to want to dilute your deck. Additionally, even when it is easily cast, it is not often more than a free explore.

I don't think anyone can claim either way with any certainty that the card is or is not broken. I strongly believe it should be banned, but that's just my belief.

[DragoFireheart]

I thought I gave you some of my real testing results. Isn't that what you based your little parody on?

I already told you that 3 rounds against Junk isn't enough. That wouldn't be enough for any card. Extensive testing results is all I'm interested in.

[Snap_Keep]

I thought I gave you some of my real testing results. Isn't that what you based your little parody on?

But it sounded so real! I think that happened IRL, no way he made that up to save face.

Just to be clear, is there anyone here who still actually thinks Temporal Mastery should be banned before we get to play with it / against it?

[DragoFireheart]

But it sounded so real! I think that happened IRL, no way he made that up to save face.

It wasn't obvious that I posted a parody? I did that on purpose. People can't be this dense...

[Snap_Keep]

Why on Earth would you do that? Make a "parody" of someone else's testing?

Speak more politely, please. I won't be condescended to.

[Tammit67]

- In regards to speculation within the context of a new magic card, everyones opinion is more or less worthless.

I already told you that 3 rounds against Junk isn't enough. That wouldn't be enough for any card. Extensive testing results is all I'm interested in.

Man. So every opinion is worthless right now but you need proof? And if the opinions (Is it really opinion when testing results have been involved?) are worthless, then why would you post in this thread?

The card is not good enough in the shell TooCloseToTheSun/ChannelFireball provided. Or the one you provided. This is fact, not opinion.

[DragoFireheart]

Why on Earth would you do that? Make a "parody" of someone else's testing?

Speak more politely, please. I won't be condescended to.

- The point of the parody was to illustrate that posting some light details on one round/game is not really testing it. If he was going to show results, he would have a link to a details doc showing us:

- Deck lists he tested the deck with TM. (more than one)
- Deck lists of the decks he fought.
- Number of rounds.
- Games with sideboarded cards.

Basically, the extent should be of a length like some of the articles he posted. For someone to claim to have results this early is silly. This is something I would expect someone to have ready after the card has been out for 2-3 months.

Man. So every opinion is worthless right now but you need proof? And if the opinions (Is it really opinion when testing results have been involved?) are worthless, then why would you post in this thread?

- It's not enough for someone to say they tested it and then claim that their word is fact. A detailed document/article is what should be posted.

The card is not good enough in the shell TooCloseToTheSun/ChannelFireball provided. Or the one you provided. This is fact, not opinion.

-Ok, so that is two decks it doesn't work in. What's your point?

[DrJones]

I think that Time Walk is pretty busted, but so are many mistakes that WotC has printed in the latter blocks and that has refused to ban. I think this card would deserve one, but I feel the red wheel of fortune is actually more powerful.

I don't think the best way to play this card is to play bs + jace + sdt or even personal tutor. As a deckbuilder, I call it the "coward" strategy and feel that worrying about minimizing the risks of a card ever being a disadvantage is as wasteful as playing circle of protection black to prevent the damage from your pestilence activations.

That doesn't mean bs, jace or sdt aren't good fits for this card, it just means that you aren't forced to play a ton of them for this card to be good. In my experience, you only need to play 2-3 copies of TM in a tempo shell alongside with cards that let you recycle dead draws for it to shine. Playing the card as intended (topdecking it) is 99% of the time awesome on a tempo deck. It might be actually detrimental to specifically setup this card due to the tempo and resources you spend to place it in the top of your library, a tempo deck must keep the initiative in order to be effective.

Personally, I think this card would work great in a U/R Delver list with 4x Brainstorm, 2-3x Temporal Mastery and 3-4x Firestorm and either FoW or Misdirection. I would even try to add some copies of the other miracles (Thunderous Wrath and Fade Away). Another option that would be worth exploring is an U/G build with Brainstorm, Fade Away, and Mirri's Guile, as the latter is better in a tempo build than Sensei's Divining Top and the extra turns offset the card disadvantage of Mirri's Guile.

[Tammit67]

We are just people trying to share our results with the rest of the community. If you do not accept our results, then good luck with your own.

Collectively we should stop trying to prove things to each other. We are really here to congregate testing and data that we cannot do ourselves. There really isn't a point to posting when you invalidate other peoples experiences and conclusions based on said experiences.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

People should stop responding to Drago.

[Vacrix]

...I feel the red wheel of fortune is actually more powerful.

This... minus the part where Temporal Mastery should be banned.



To put things in perspective.. you guys are complaining about how broken a card is in control decks when they are in a winning position... Instead of talking about how any deck not playing Force of Will is going to roll over and die to our good friend Reforge the Nuts. I've been playing the deck and the Miracle aspect of the card is pointless and practically irrelevant. Seriously if you guys want to point fingers at something and complain, its Reforge trust me. You'll literally feel retarded in a few months when you realize what you're doing. In glass house, I've finally tweaked my build to a solid 60% turn 1 kills, pretty much as solid as SI in terms of speed, slightly slower than PSI. The list also exposes you frequently to the possibility of Force of Will and post-board Mindbreak Trap due to the D7's, however, this is not always the case as sometimes you can take a different line of play. I haven't even tried tweaking a Belcher list to incorporate it yet but let me tell you, non-FoW players, be afraid. I anticipate its going to get much faster. Keep in mind that post-board you can likely answer Belcher players either with Force or the fact that they win on turn 3 because the usually Empty the Warrens for like 10-12 tokens. That means you have time to do something about them, like Etutor into Explosives by turn 3, or land a Deed for 0, Malestrom Pulse, etc. You don't have that option against Reforge the Nuts because they straight up kill you turn 1. Also, the deck in no way needs to use its life total as a resource, much like Belcher.

[joemauer]

I believe Grislebrand to be the most busted card to be spoiled as of yet. Creatures are easy to cheat into play. Necro effects are powerful, especiay when tied to 7/7 flying lifelinker.

Reforge the soul has potential to be busted. Draw seven for two mana is indeed greater than extra turn for two mana.

[DrJones]

The problem is not as much Temporal Mastery as all the other blue cards that place blue on top. Accelerating blue tempo one extra turn is always a bad idea, haven't we learned the lesson from Mental Misstep (the 'free timewalk')?

Also, Reforge the Souls is broken even in Cavius' "Smart" burn.

[Sims]

This... minus the part where Temporal Mastery should be banned.



To put things in perspective.. you guys are complaining about how broken a card is in control decks when they are in a winning position... Instead of talking about how any deck not playing Force of Will is going to roll over and die to our good friend Reforge the Nuts. I've been playing the deck and the Miracle aspect of the card is pointless and practically irrelevant. Seriously if you guys want to point fingers at something and complain, its Reforge trust me. You'll literally feel retarded in a few months when you realize what you're doing. In glass house, I've finally tweaked my build to a solid 60% turn 1 kills, pretty much as solid as SI in terms of speed, slightly slower than PSI. The list also exposes you frequently to the possibility of Force of Will and post-board Mindbreak Trap due to the D7's, however, this is not always the case as sometimes you can take a different line of play. I haven't even tried tweaking a Belcher list to incorporate it yet but let me tell you, non-FoW players, be afraid. I anticipate its going to get much faster. Keep in mind that post-board you can likely answer Belcher players either with Force or the fact that they win on turn 3 because the usually Empty the Warrens for like 10-12 tokens. That means you have time to do something about them, like Etutor into Explosives by turn 3, or land a Deed for 0, Malestrom Pulse, etc. You don't have that option against Reforge the Nuts because they straight up kill you turn 1. Also, the deck in no way needs to use its life total as a resource, much like Belcher.

This. All of this.

I found it hilarious to the point of falling out of my chair laughing when I saw Miracle Walk preselling for 39.99 and Reforge preselling for 4.99. Maybe that's the difference between Mythic and regular Rare, but it's going to make all those people dropping 40 bucks on a mediocre mythic cry when someone beats the ever living out of them with their 5 dollar rare.

[TooCloseToTheSun]

- The point of the parody was to illustrate that posting some light details on one round/game is not really testing it.

So you can claim this card is "better than time walk" with nothing in support, but I can't say "it isn't that good" because my testing isn't good enough? You can see how dumb that sounds right?

[CorpT]

So you can claim this card is better than time walk with nothing in support, but I can't say it isn't that good because my testing isn't good enough? You can see how dumb that sounds right?

People should stop responding to Drago.

You're just encouraging him to continue to make really dumb statements.

[Tao]

Cavius' "Smart" burn

OMG! This is the by far best deck ever!

[DragoFireheart]

We are just people trying to share our results with the rest of the community. If you do not accept our results, then good luck with your own.

- I don't mind people sharing results. My problem is when the results are sorta iffy and/or incomplete.

Collectively we should stop trying to prove things to each other. We are really here to congregate testing and data that we cannot do ourselves. There really isn't a point to posting when you invalidate other peoples experiences and conclusions based on said experiences.

- I'm not trying to invalidate his conclusions/experience, I merely want him to expand on them. By all means, post your results, but a short summary on a single 3-round game against junk leaves much to be desired.

[DragoFireheart]

So you can claim this card is "better than time walk" with nothing in support,

- I posted my reasoning and the logic supporting my reasoning.

but I can't say "it isn't that good" because my testing isn't good enough?

- No, I just want you to post all of your testing. You did test other decks, right? I believe that you tested it, but I wouldn't be doing you any favors by just agreeing without some feedback. If I didn't care about your opinion I wouldn't be giving you so much of my attention.

I also don't think the channelfireball list was any good. I think before we determine if the card is good or bad, we should find it a proper home. SoTF is obviously terrible in burn but it's amazing in Elves and U/G madness style decks.

Lets make a proper deck-list first that we can all agree on being the best we can think of, test it, and then make a conclusion. I think that is the best way to determine if it's even viable as a card. How does that sound?

[TooCloseToTheSun]

- I posted my reasoning and the logic supporting my reasoning.

Reasoning and logic with no experience with the card is worthless.