Originally Posted by Vacrix
Remanding your Force doesn't leave you so dry. You rfg your card for Force, lose your Remand and draw a filler, and then get to choose what's the most chaff card in your hand to rfg again. All of this is better than losing to a resolved reanimation spell (remember, in my post I said Remand>Force is specifically amazing in the Reanimator match-up)
Yes, Remanding Flusterstorm can be better, but you have access to double Force on turn 2 if you have Remand in hand. That is HUGE. Of course it loses power vs a combo deck that doesn't run counterspells. And you you can in a sense re-use spells vs Remand, but yeah, you would be doing this by preventing your spell from being countered. Being a pseudo-counter spell is huge in a deck that can combo off in response to a spell being cast again. It used to be stronger when there was more Reanimator and Jace, the Mind Fucker everywhere, so it might be wise to run 3 now. I still wouldn't leave the house without it.
I don't think Snapcaster is a good replacement for Remand, but he is a house. He is just in his own league, so it's hard to classify what card he should replace. I'm testing him as a 2-of but I think I like him more as a 1-of. Running 3 Turnabouts seems better as they dodge Spell Snares, which both RUG and Stoneforge play. They also make it a bit easier to combo out on your own turn, as even if Snapcaster does double as Turnabouts he is naturally a gimped version of them, and then theres the matter of actually finding the Turnabout. And past them I woudn't know what to replace, though running 3 Remand might be alright.
I really don't want to have the FoI debate again, or the PtD debate again. It's amazing, at least to me, and thats what years of testing the deck by many others has proven. It's raw card advantage (2 for 1), and playing it as a one-of makes sure you will never be clogged with a useless FoI in your hand. Digging 5 cards is shit to digging 2 cards, then casting Demonic Tutor whilst stacking your deck. You're not always going to have a Brainstorm in your graveyard. Stop pretending.
Just like 4 Tide/3 Wish the topic has been discussed to death, and there is a lot of information on it in the older Solidarity thread, or earlier pages of this one.
Last edited by Kanti; 04-17-2012 at 03:13 AM. Reason: typos
My list is running Snap in place of Remand, because of all of the reasons that I posted for it being at least as good, if not better, in the current metagame.
I've been playing Remand for as long as I've been playing the deck, and I've only just now come to the conclusion that it's too slow. It's always really shone against enemy counterspells or big, expensive bombs, but against Nimble Mongoose and Delver of Secrets, there's just not much he does. He is really quite good against Maverick, but since when do we need help against that deck? And Snap is at least as good. Against Combo, sure, it's better than Snap. But then I'd rather have a deck that can rival the speed of other combo decks than a slower, less-consistent one that tries to play control in that matchup. Against aggro, Remand is strictly a pseudo-time walk, and Snap is just more effective at controlling the pace of the game. As there are no pure control decks in the format anymore, Remand doesn't seem to be optimal.
tl;dr: Snap speeds up the fundamental turn and controls creatures better, and nowadays, we're pretty much just losing to creatures.
As for Snapcaster Mage, I agree, he's on his own level. It's hard to find a card that does what he does as an analog, because what he does is pretty unique. But here's the short list:
- Blocks Tarmogoyf
- flashback Brainstorm to dig for land
- flashback combo piece to continue to combo
- combo with Brain Freeze to prevent fizzling
- doubles Brain Freeze, a la Remand
- protects cards from Surgical Extraction
In my deck, take the last list from Gearhart and go -1 Turnabout, -2 Flash of Insight, -1 Twincast (I think) for +4 Snapcaster Mage. He works just like Flash of Insight to make you fizzle far, far less mid-combo, while at the same time effectively doubling every single combo card you have (which lets you take out a Turnabout). I would never play less than 4. He's never dead, never a liability, and he adds consistency. I don't see why you'd want to play with anything but the full 4.
And I disagree with cutting Brain Freeze to focus on the Blue Sun's Zenith kill. What I love about this deck, moreso than any other combo deck I've ever played (and I've played them all) is that there are zero dead cards pre-combo. Brain Freeze only costs 2. BSZ costs way, way more, making it far more likely to be dead when you're not winning. You can use Brain Freeze to do lots of things to get set up to beat them. Blue Sun's Zenith only works as a super (expensive) Meditate, or a kill card.
Why not try working Intuition into that list? Seems crazy.
My friend plays a version with Intuitions, but I'm not convinced that they're necessary. I already end up with my entire deck in my hand, why would I need a tutor?
So I've come around to playing x2 Snapcasters and x2 Snaps. If Thalia didn't exist I would happily go -2 Snap, +1 Snapcaster/Remand, +1 Turnabout. We sadly need some MD bounce.
I do feel like he's a liability sometimes, since he's just a worse version of what you are trying to cast. The 2/1 body will be relevant some games, but it will be irrelevant in many others. As a 4-of you have to be running Snaps as you will be ending up with an overload of Snapcasters, which sucks. Again, he is in his own league, so though the casting analogy isn't 100% spot on it remains true.
I do agree that Remand can be cut down one, but when I went with the 4 Snap build I absolutely dreaded it. I barely could combo out faster, and when I could it was sometimes wiser to wait. I felt like my hands had way too much gas, while having no re-active spells and not having enough draw to seal the deal on t3 (why I recommended Intuition, you can run it as a 1-of and when you cast it you pretty much win).
One thing I am certainly not missing is the 4th Opt.
What do you guys think of Extraction in the sb? Obviously if you run x4 Snaps you would be cutting some bounce spells from the sb and have more space, but would it be worth it in my x2 Snap list? I kind of feel like replacing it with Krosan Grip.
I ran Snapcaster Mage as a 4 of without any Snap for a very, very long time, and I can assure you that it's pretty much impossible to get overloaded on him. Much more than a Regrowth, Snapcaster Mage makes an excellent chump blocker to buy time and help you setup your hand with flashbacked cantrips.
Running an Intuition only increases your dependence upon Snap, which is a bad direction to take the deck. As of right now, there is a very small chance that they could blow you out with a Swords to Plowshares, as Snap is playing the part mostly of an accelerant or spell to delay them a bit. If you make it an integral combo piece, you increase the chances that their dead removal spells can interact with you in a significant way, which is bad.
And it is always wiser to wait. Snap being in the deck just gives you the option to be faster if you can't afford to wait. And I've been playing Surgical Extraction for as long as it's existed. If you know what you're doing, it's a beating against Ichorid, and it's one of the best spells we have against Reanimator.
If you are casting early Snaps and are casting Mages to chump before you have cantrips in the gy you are losing way too much CA. Snapcasters maintain CA at t3, which isn't bad by any means, but is a bit late (And you of course need a binned cantrip). If Snapcaster Mage was simply a card called Snapcasted: Draw a card. Target instant or sorcery in your gy gains flashback until the end of turn then I would play it as an auto 4-of as he replaces himself.
Snap isn't needed as a 4-of, and neither is Snapcaster. I do believe the deck needs some Mages and probably some main-deck bounce, which would naturally be Snap as you are going to be replacing a Turnabout and need to make up for that, but the deck does not need to max out on them.
All of the decks problems vs Zoo and other hyper aggro decks (mainly them being about 1 Tarmogoyf hit too early for us too win) have been solved by either Snapcaster or Snap, so you don't really need to see multiples of each spell in those matches as either one will accomplish setting back their clock Remand is better at addressing this decks other problems (U-based control, and Storm), and is still good vs just about every deck.
It is very easy to get overloaded on Snapcasters in the early game. He shines like a beacon of hope in the late game, but by then the deck starts taking over as a whole. This is why I play Remand, because it is amazing in the early game and is still pretty damn good in the late game. As I said before, it has lost some of it's power as UW Stoneforge is played less, albeit heavily played, and Reanimator has gone way down in the ranks (Snap will not be as good as Remand g2&g3 when they are bringing in shrouded creatures. It is still amazing though, and even more powerful here in conjuction with Remand).
This deck doesn't have infinite mana. You can't just run Snaps out there that won't hit anything (they can Swords/LB their own shit). And Mages are heavy on your mana, which is important when your trying to get the combo off the ground. I kind of want to go back to 3 Turnabouts main-deck as they have saved me from Spell Snare too many times, but so far I have been able to keep playing around it. It is nice that most decks only play 3 of them.
edit: snap snappety snap snip snop
Last edited by Kanti; 04-18-2012 at 12:56 AM. Reason: clarity
I've never been in a situation where I had to run a Snapcaster Mage out there to chump block without being able to also flashback something. And I'm not usually in the habit of burning Snaps unless I'm about to lose.
All I will say is that drawing a Remand when you're trying to go off is just about the worst. Only slightly better than a Force of Will. Snap, on the other hand, turns into Snapcaster Mage which wins you the game on the spot. The two aren't close, and I've tested both. Extensively. I'm not really going to argue hypotheticals with you since it's pretty clear that you haven't tested a list with full playsets of Snapcaster Mage and/or Snap. Simply put, if you're having trouble coming up with mana while playing with 8 Snapcaster Mages, you're doing it wrong.
Oh, and I usually would board out Remand in the Reanimator matchup. Surgical Extraction and Flusterstorm are just way, way better. The only matchup where I want Remand all day long would be some sort of counterspell-heavy control deck, which hasn't existed in the metagame since Counterbalance-Top fell out of favor, and even then I'd probably rather have Flusterstorm and Mindbreak Trap.
Hey, benthetenor, I'm really interested in testing the kind of list you're talking about - you make it sound like loads of fun. Do you have a suggested 60 cards?
Sure man. My current list is:
11 Island
6 blue fetches
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 High Tide
3 Visions of Beyond
2 Peek
4 Reset
4 Impulse
4 Snap
2 Brain Freeze
3 Meditate
3 Cunning Wish
2 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
SB:
1 Brain Freeze
1 Stroke of Genius
1 Turnabout
1 Meditate
1 Echoing Truth
2 Wipe Away
3 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Ravenous Trap
My friend suggested (and I tested) playing with Pact of Negation over Force of Will, but there are just too many things you need that little bit of protection against that Pact won't do. Snapcasting Pact of Negation is incredibly sweet, though. Visions of Beyond is incredible, as always, and the 2 Peek means that I will see one every matchup and most games, and won't have to cast two very often. This list is as close to perfect as anything I've come up with so far, but I'm sure that some of the numbers could fidget a little. I've put more time and thought into this list than pretty much any other deck I've ever thought of, which is why I'm quick to have answers for your guys' questions. Not that they're bad questions, just that, well, I've already thought of that. Snapcaster Mage really takes this deck from tier 3 to competitive since now you can be just as fast as Zoo and Goblins without putting too much stress on the list.
The only quirk that I'm not sure I'm satisfied with is the land count. 17 is definitely on the low end, and you end up using your cantrips to find land, including Brainstorming more aggressively than I have in the past, but the added Peek over an 18th land is one more live card you can draw off of a Meditate. You're still going to occasionally Meditate into 3 land and a Force of Will, but having Snapcaster Mages and Snaps means that it's usually a snap to Meditate again (pun maybe intended?). And with Snap instead of Remand, that's 4 more live cards you can draw off of a "bad" Meditate. But 6 fetches is good because it helps you fill the yard ever so slightly for Visions of Beyond, and means you'll always have a shuffle for early Brainstorms. Late, you just Brain Freeze off the cards you don't need.
Oh, and if you want to have fun, play against a sorcery-speed version of High Tide. Most hilarious match I've ever had in tournament play.
On the topic of Intuition. Intuition into 3 Moment's Peace post-board could literally buy you 4 extra turns.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
I mean, yeah. Until they Wasteland your Tropical Island and you die the next turn. I'd rather just win.
Yeah people keep telling me that. I've played Solidarity for like a year with a Trop. Wasteland is usually irrelevant in the matchups that you even look for the Trop. Also, you can go off in response to their Wasteland activation, something I've certainly done before. Trop is for improving your aggro matchup. Not all aggro decks run Wasteland. Zoo, Elves, Sligh, etc. These decks don't run Wasteland but they are fast enough that you aren't really going to have the luxury of just going off in response. Tangle is the fucking tech. Its often 2 extra turns that you need to go off successfully. Hell I've even had 2 of my Trops Wasted in one game but I Tangled 3 times, another time via Snapcaster, and what do you know, still won because I had plenty of time to sculpt and hit land drops.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
I'm just saying, if your plan is to Moment's Peace 4 times, that seems rather easy to derail with a single Wasteland activation. I'm not opposed to the splash, I just find it unnecessary since Counterbalance isn't a legit part of the metagame, which removes one of the biggest strengths of the splash (K. Grip). In either case, if you're going to intuition, it seems like a less strong play to get 3 cards that don't advance your gameplan, rather than three that do. If you get to turn 4, I'd rather just win.
In either case, Tangle is better because it stops them for two turns, with or without a Wasteland on their part. The aggro decks without Wasteland aren't really the ones I'm worried about.
Honestly, I'd play Trop even if we didn't have to deal with Counterbalance. Tangle is just too good in some matchups. Even Goblins, stopping them for 2 turns is enough to get there. Especially when you need to find an answer for Pyroblasts in the post-board.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
That seems counterproductive to me. You're potentially sacrificing both the actual resource of the land as well as the time and effort it took to get it for a chance of buying yourself two turns. But if you lose that land to Wasteland, you've also lost at least a turn, maybe more if you don't topdeck one or have extra ones in hand. Snap, Remand, Repeal, stuff like that all buys you a similar amount of time but without the downside of potentially losing your land. If you're lucky, it will buy you two turns, if they don't have Wasteland and you can use your land drops. But if you can't replace the land drops after they get Wastelanded, you're going to just be wasting time. Seems like a long-shot to me, but then, I haven't tested it. My gut would say that an on-color answer that you can afford to play main-deck is probably better than an off color, out-of-the-sideboard answer.
I feel like you're starting to troll, with the "you're doing it wrong", but I'll bite. As I said before I'm still testing the 4 Snap version, but it has very little in early game action. As you said yourself you won't be burning Snapcasters so they come online t3.
All I will say rather is I have my doubts taking everything forum goers when they side out Remands versus Reanimator because "Fluster and Extraction are way better". Side in Flusters, keep Remands for your Forces.
If you feel I'm "starting to troll", then prove me wrong. Playing a version with 8 Snap/Snapcaster, it's not uncommon to generate 100+ mana and stroke the opponent out. I find it very, very difficult to believe that you're having issues with getting enough mana with this version.
What exactly are you going to side out against Reanimator to make room for the 6 cards that I'm bringing in?
No one has been proved right or wrong. Until a list places well at an event we are just testing. It is like me saying "Oh yeah, well prove me wrong".
I said that a list maxing out on Mages and Snaps will have some trouble going through Spell Snare, and for that matter removal g1. It happens, and you will lose some games. That is not to say one shoudn't play Mages or Snaps, even in high volume, just that one should be careful of what he takes out of the deck. There will be some games that you are just staring at a Mage in your hand as your opponent is resolving GSZ's and Goyfs. Hell, I'll even admit that I have been testing a third Mage over FoI just to see if I can sneak another one in the deck without sacrificing too much, since he is a boss. But he sucks in the early game.
There is a lot to side out vs Reanimator, and it is not Remand. Side out 1-4 Opts, 1-2 Impulses, FoI if you run it, one of your main-deck Freezes. A Mage build will be even stronger versus Reanimator (You run bounce, and can re-cast your hate via Mage).
Of all spells to side out vs Reanimator it is not Remand though, as it's synergy with FoW, Extraction, and Fluster are all too good to pass up. It's not that hard to make room when your goal goes from comboing off on t4 to just keeping them from comboing off for as long as possible to Draw, Go into a win.
You're not playing Opt and you cut a land? I'm skeptical.
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