[Discuss] Is Delver of Secrets overbearing?

[Koby]

Consider:
Legacy's Top Tier decks: March
Modern's Top Tier decks: March
Standard's Top Tier decks: March

Considering the card has widespread applications, and is dominating one format, splitting another, and coming in a tight 3rd (and gaining) in Legacy - is Delver of Secrets a problem for Constructed play?

Most recently:

SCG - Phoenix     (3/8) / (3/16)
SCG - Dex Moines  (5/8) / (7/16)
SCG - Baltimore   (0/8) / (0/16)
SCG - Sacramento  (0/8) / (2/16)
SCG - Dallas/FTW  (0/8) / (2/16)

[Star|Scream]

Consider:
Legacy's Top Tier decks: March
Modern's Top Tier decks: March
Standard's Top Tier decks: March

Considering the card has widespread applications, and is dominating one format, splitting another, and coming in a tight 3rd (and gaining) in Legacy - is Delver of Secrets a problem for Constructed play?

a 3/2 flyer for U that rewards players for playing brainstorm? Nah, totally fair card!

[Aggro_zombies]

Considering Delver is only good in one or maybe two decks, probably not.

I mean, yes, in those decks it's fantastic, and is a large part of why they're good decks right now. But the same could be said of, say, Green Sun's Zenith, or Stoneforge Mystic, or Jace, the Mind Sculptor: these are all cards around which good decks coalesce and upon which those decks depend for much of their power. Delver might be more obnoxious because it's a flying Wild Nacatl, but in many ways he just takes us back to the good old days of Tier One Goblins, wherein you needed some number of answers to turn one Lackey on the play or you were probably toast. Not having any answers to opposing flying creatures at all seems kind of suspect to me anyway in a format with Clique, Delver, Lingering Souls, and to a lesser extent, Bitterblossom, Spellstutter Sprite, and various flying Maverick dudes.

[DrJones]

I think it was pretty dumb to ban Wild Nacatl in modern and leave Delver of Secrets untouched. Aside of that, I believe WotC will take action in Standard after it no longer matters.

[Aggro_zombies]

I think it was pretty dumb to ban Wild Nacatl in modern and leave Delver of Secrets untouched. Aside of that, I believe WotC will take action in Standard after it no longer matters.

You should write them some feedback about Delver, then. They'll listen to your opinion about whether or not it should be banned.

[DrJones]

I already gave them feedback about Delver, Invisible Stalker, and Snapcaster Mage just when Innistrad was previewed, told them that hexproof was a mistake in blue creatures, and even told them to fire their current R&D team. Hey, at least they reassigned LaPille to D&D shortly after that!

Sadly, they refused to ask game balance gurus before they release a set, which would have been in the line of their current policy of asking rules gurus to make sure their cards work. But I'll keep trying.

[CorpT]

and even told them to fire their current R&D team. Hey, at least they reassigned LaPille to D&D shortly after that!

If this worked, you're my hero.

[RaNDoMxGeSTuReS]

But I'll keep trying.

"May the mighty Dr. Jones deliver us."

[dontbiteitholmes]

I already gave them feedback about Delver, Invisible Stalker, and Snapcaster Mage just when Innistrad was previewed, told them that hexproof was a mistake in blue creatures, and even told them to fire their current R&D team. Hey, at least they reassigned LaPille to D&D shortly after that!

Sadly, they refused to ask game balance gurus before they release a set, in the line of their current policy of asking rules gurus to make sure their cards work. But I'll keep trying.

You forgot to tell us you predicted the best standard deck months before the pros and got Tom LaPille fired. You are a fucking MtG legend. [/sarcasm]

[rufus]

<shrug> I'd like to see it banned for being a transform card.

[Purgatory]

Considering Delver is only good in one or maybe two decks, probably not.

I mean, yes, in those decks it's fantastic, and is a large part of why they're good decks right now. But the same could be said of, say, Green Sun's Zenith, or Stoneforge Mystic, or Jace, the Mind Sculptor: these are all cards around which good decks coalesce and upon which those decks depend for much of their power. Delver might be more obnoxious because it's a flying Wild Nacatl, but in many ways he just takes us back to the good old days of Tier One Goblins, wherein you needed some number of answers to turn one Lackey on the play or you were probably toast. Not having any answers to opposing flying creatures at all seems kind of suspect to me anyway in a format with Clique, Delver, Lingering Souls, and to a lesser extent, Bitterblossom, Spellstutter Sprite, and various flying Maverick dudes.

I totally agree with this.

The biggest impact that he has had on the format in my eyes (that is, my local metagame, and the two 40+ people tournaments that I have played since the release of Innistrad) is that cheap removal, Bolt et al, are a lot more common than they were a year ago.

[Phoenix Ignition]

Delver might be more obnoxious because it's a flying Wild Nacatl, but in many ways he just takes us back to the good old days of Tier One Goblins, wherein you needed some number of answers to turn one Lackey on the play or you were probably toast. Not having any answers to opposing flying creatures at all seems kind of suspect to me anyway in a format with Clique, Delver, Lingering Souls, and to a lesser extent, Bitterblossom, Spellstutter Sprite, and various flying Maverick dudes.

I disagree with the premise of this analogy. It can be said of any 1 drop creature, of virtually any power level, and it really isn't the same. A 20/20 for would be ridiculous, everyone would play it, and it would bring us back to the days of needing an answer for "turn one Lackey on the play." The argument of "You need a removal for it, if you don't then that's too bad" just isn't a great one (if that's what you are trying to make).

Also goblins didn't have blue to counterspell the crap out of your removal, or the consistency of brainstorm to help mid/late game get the card quality you needed. Goblins is red, so the power level of its specific creatures needs to be waaaaay higher than the power level of any blue creature for them to be considered even.

All in all I don't like flip cards either, so I'm going to agree with rufus.

[Aggro_zombies]

I disagree with the premise of this analogy. It can be said of any 1 drop creature, of virtually any power level, and it really isn't the same. A 20/20 for would be ridiculous, everyone would play it, and it would bring us back to the days of needing an answer for "turn one Lackey on the play." The argument of "You need a removal for it, if you don't then that's too bad" just isn't a great one (if that's what you are trying to make).

Also goblins didn't have blue to counterspell the crap out of your removal, or the consistency of brainstorm to help mid/late game get the card quality you needed. Goblins is red, so the power level of its specific creatures needs to be waaaaay higher than the power level of any blue creature for them to be considered even.

All in all I don't like flip cards either, so I'm going to agree with ruckus.

I'm arguing that it's a card whose value can be mitigated by careful deck construction, hence the comparison to Lackey. Lackey was an immensely powerful card if you got caught with your pants down, but if you were prepared it was really not an issue (calls to ban it notwithstanding).

But setting that aside, I think decks like RUG Tempo/Canadian and - to a lesser extent - UR Delver Burn perform useful metagame functions and should be supported for it. Both of those decks are good at punishing durdly plays as well as greedy deck construction, which is not something a lot of other Legacy decks do (or at least, not both at once). A deck with a quick clock, Stifles, and Wastelands provides pretty good incentive to not get greedy with your mana, while the quick clock and cheap counters curtails some of the "herp-a-derp ramp into garbage" that regularly plagues Standard formats.

In that sense, Delver is useful because it gives RUG/UR Burn decks some real teeth. Geese and Goyfs can be mitigated by clogged board states, and Clique is legendary, but Delvers + big guys can be legitimately scary.

And for the record, I hate double-faced cards with a passion. If Delver had an actual Magic card back and was instead worded like the Opal/Hidden/Lurking enchantments from Urza's block, though, I think it would be fine.

[Amon Amarth]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...g/daily/ld/191

Didn't know where to put this but this seems relevant here. Basic premise is that it's not SCM or Delvers fault but Mana Leak... yes, Mana Leak. Way too good. Really?!

Anyways, fuck Blue flying Wild Nacatls. Where is my RR for my 4/4 haste, trample guy? Maybe they'll print him later.

[CorpT]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...g/daily/ld/191

Didn't know where to put this but this seems relevant here. Basic premise is that it's not SCM or Delvers fault but Mana Leak... yes, Mana Leak. Way too good. Really?!

Anyways, fuck Blue flying Wild Nacatls. Where is my RR for my 4/4 haste, trample guy? Maybe they'll print him later.

These are the people who printed Batterskull and SFM in the same Standard and didn't see Exarch/Twin coming.

[Aggro_zombies]

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...g/daily/ld/191

Didn't know where to put this but this seems relevant here. Basic premise is that it's not SCM or Delvers fault but Mana Leak... yes, Mana Leak. Way too good. Really?!

In Standard, yeah, it kind of is. "Mana Leak" stands in for Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Daze, and Force of Will in Legacy as the "ride it to victory" part of, "Stick a cheap threat and ride it to victory." It reduces interaction because your opponent gets set behind and has no good options for catching up: his removal gets countered, his blocker gets countered, and he doesn't have time to dick around with baiting counters just to deal with the threat in question because he's under a lot of pressure. If Mana Leak weren't there, Delver would be much easier to remove and therefore much safer.

[CorpT]

In Standard, yeah, it kind of is. "Mana Leak" stands in for Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Daze, and Force of Will in Legacy as the "ride it to victory" part of, "Stick a cheap threat and ride it to victory." It reduces interaction because your opponent gets set behind and has no good options for catching up: his removal gets countered, his blocker gets countered, and he doesn't have time to dick around with baiting counters just to deal with the threat in question because he's under a lot of pressure. If Mana Leak weren't there, Delver would be much easier to remove and therefore much safer.

Mana Leak gets sided out ridiculously often. Check out LSV's article.

[DrJones]

Well, yes, he's partially right. The best use of countermagic isn't done on a control shell, but on a tempo or combo shell. The problem is that blue tempo decks winning tournaments in all magic formats aren't using countermagic to protect themselves from scary combo kills (well, that one too), but to maintain initiative and prevent the opponent to ever recover from a bad position.

Delver does in standard the same thing that goyf did in legacy. You can kill with basically anything, but the counters the Delver deck plays make sure you don't. If delver was black (and it should have been black), the problem Zac mentions would still be the same, but Delver decks would have more troubles to adjust to metagame changes.

The problem with many posters, is that people don't realize how absurdly powerful countermagic is when used offensively to provide huge tempo boosts. Mana Leak is preventing the opponent from efficiently answering Delver. Without countermagic, it would be a child's play to get rid of it. In a sense, Mana Leak + Snapcaster Mage are making Delver too strong.

But as I said, he's not totally right, because Delver should have never been printed on blue when you want it to be the color of countermagic. It's stupid to think that there's nothing wrong with the card when it deals on average more damage than freaking Black Vise.

[Amon Amarth]

Yeah, I don't think anyone would give a crap about Mana Leak if they stopped printing stupid Blue creatures. Mana Leak is much worse if your using it to protect Amphin Cutthroat.

[menace13]

Delver is better than Nacatl. Evasion, Functions as 3/2 off no land and it's blue. RUG might be the best deck in the format.