[Deck] Dredge

[jares]

If only I can fit 16 lands and all of the goodies I would do it. Funny thing was last February 19 a Dredge Player made it on one of our majors. His list is LEDless and he uses 16 Lands.

Here is the List:

DREGE (Daniel Saracin)

Creatures
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp


4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 faithless looting

4 Bridge from Below

4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 tarnished citadel

Sideboard:
2 chain of vapor
3 firestorm
2 dread return
1 flame kin zealot
1 iona shield of emeria
4 faerie macabre
2 nature’s claim

The List I think goes for the most overall consistency with no LED. What do you guys think? When I simulate this in Cockatrice it seems to keep a lot of it's hands.

Hehe, that's my list.

For reference, the tourney report for that is in the old thread (here). Looking back at this list, I would now surely reconsider my sideboard (as always). That instance was also the first time that Faithless Looting was legal, and I have been unable to follow-up on that ever since.

I have been considering playing LED Dredge in one of the upcoming major tourneys here, but it intrigues me to test whether or not I would still be able to keep-up with the competition using LEDless, which is still actually my preferred configuration.

I wasn't able to join-in on the fun last 22-Apr-2012 due to unforeseen circumstances (and I was looking forward to this so much ), and I was wondering about the results of that tourney that I missed:

• How was your match versus Reanimator?
• How was your match versus Stoneblade?
• What did the Top 8 look like?
• How many players were there?
• Did you notice the number of players using Dredge (LEDless in particular)?
• Any additional notes on the meta? I'm particularly interested in whether or not there were a lot of Maverick, Stoneblade, and Storm-based decks.

It's good to see that you placed well, though it's unfortunate that you had to lose to a teammate - on the bright side, at least one of you reached the Top 8. I hope that luck will also be on your side next time.

Cheers,
jares

[badjuju]

Very Congrats!! Good job!
I have some questions for you because looking at your list there are some things that remains in darkness to me:

-Why do you invest so many "study effects" if you have not FKZ as autowin? I mean, you can go all in with leds, coliseum and breakthough plus study and loothing why wait?
Personally i like running eternal witness to warrant going off in the turn i crack led.

-Coffin purge is you double surgical plan?

-In what cases do you side the 4th breakthrough in?

-supposing that ichorid beatdown is your main way to win, why just 3?

If you think that answering this questions is redundant for the topic please pm me.

To add to what blindspotxxx wrote, here's a direct quote from Hollywood regarding his choice to run a sole Sun Titan:

I agree on the principle that Cabal Therapies can be enough when creating tokens and stripping an opponent's hand apart, which is why I opt to run Sun Titan. It doesn't necessarily create a "win more" scenario for the deck, but either ensures you will win the game the following turn by blasting through your deck, or it will throw you back into a winning position when the game is effectively out of reach. FKZ and Flayer really don't do this optimally, but Titan can.

[Anusien]

Would anyone keep LED, Faithless Looting, one dredge card, 4 blanks? Does it matter what the dredge card is?

[Klazam]

Would anyone keep LED, Faithless Looting, one dredge card, 4 blanks? Does it matter what the dredge card is?

Play: no. Draw: Game one, probably.

That hand really needs a land to be good.

I would not keep if i had 2 narcos in my hand, and/or if the dredger was just a thug or anything smaller. Troll and Imp would be ideal.

[Koby]

Funny video of Joseph Moreno (Que) vs John Harduvel (Harduvel) in the last round of MTGDeal's Cash tourney on 4/22/12.

Linky

[jares]

I agree on the principle that Cabal Therapies can be enough when creating tokens and stripping an opponent's hand apart, which is why I opt to run Sun Titan. It doesn't necessarily create a "win more" scenario for the deck, but either ensures you will win the game the following turn by blasting through your deck, or it will throw you back into a winning position when the game is effectively out of reach. FKZ and Flayer really don't do this optimally, but Titan can.

Regarding the ability to "blast through the deck", I was wondering if some of you have already had their conclusions regarding how reliable Griselbrand would be in that function (maybe in comparison to Sun Titan and others that are also able to facilitate the same line of play).

Kind Regards,
jares

[jares]

Would anyone keep LED, Faithless Looting, one dredge card, 4 blanks? Does it matter what the dredge card is?

If what you mean by "blanks" is "any card that you don't want to see in your opening hand" (e.g. Ichorid, Dread Return, Narcomoeba etc.), then I generally wouldn't keep that hand. In the worst case, you could possibly hit a brick with the second draw and not be able to replace it with a dredger. Thinking about it further, though, I could see some scenarios where keeping that hand would still be wise, though these scenarios seem too difficult to be discussed briefly.

I hope that helps.

Kind Regards,
jares

[blindspotxxx]

Hehe, that's my list.

For reference, the tourney report for that is in the old thread (here). Looking back at this list, I would now surely reconsider my sideboard (as always). That instance was also the first time that Faithless Looting was legal, and I have been unable to follow-up on that ever since.

I have been considering playing LED Dredge in one of the upcoming major tourneys here, but it intrigues me to test whether or not I would still be able to keep-up with the competition using LEDless, which is still actually my preferred configuration.

I wasn't able to join-in on the fun last 22-Apr-2012 due to unforeseen circumstances (and I was looking forward to this so much ), and I was wondering about the results of that tourney that I missed:

• How was your match versus Reanimator?
• How was your match versus Stoneblade?
• What did the Top 8 look like?
• How many players were there?
• Did you notice the number of players using Dredge (LEDless in particular)?
• Any additional notes on the meta? I'm particularly interested in whether or not there were a lot of Maverick, Stoneblade, and Storm-based decks.

It's good to see that you placed well, though it's unfortunate that you had to lose to a teammate - on the bright side, at least one of you reached the Top 8. I hope that luck will also be on your side next time.

Cheers,
jares

Hahaha Kabayan! lol Didn't expect you're Daniel Saracin. None of us reached Top 8, I had the best record, my High Tide team mate got stressed out and misplayed on his mirror match that loss made him drop out of the tourney because he's out of top 8 because of this as well. How unfortunate you didn't join, there were 7 Dredge players and 5 Reanimators?

May matchup versus reanimator went like this:

Game 1:

He kept a hand that lacked the combo and kept on digging for the combo. I wasn't able to Flayer combo him when I went off turn 2 but I had 2 Zombie tokens 1 8/8 Gravetroll, 2 Bridges and 1-2 Ichorids in the Gy. He entombs Sheoldred? that black creature and exhumes it. Fortunate for me I guess, if he went for Elesh Norn that's GG right there.

Game 2:

I open with Leyline of the Void. He doesn't draw another blue source for his Boomerang until I killed him. Was just lucky or I should have lost 2 games.

vs. Stoneblade

Game 1: Don't remember but I won turn 2 with Flayer and him having Force of will with no Blue cards.

Game 2: I went DDD and he surgical extracted my Golgari Gravetroll. He slapped down a turn 2 Stoneforge, Turn 3 Batterskull, Turn 4 Jitte on the Batterskulled Germ. GG Couldn't recover from that anymore because couldn't find my Dredger or I was Dredging slow.

Game 3: I kept a rather not so explosive hand and I get beat by the same Stoneforge, Batterskull and Jitte. He kills his Stoneforge which kills my 3 Bridges and I was slow dredging. He countered my only draw spell also.

Top 8 Looked like this:

Sneak Show
Maverick
RUG Delver
Stoneblade
Death and Taxes
TES
Nic Fit
Affinity

[jares]

Hahaha Kabayan! lol Didn't expect you're Daniel Saracin. None of us reached Top 8, I had the best record, my High Tide team mate got stressed out and misplayed on his mirror match that loss made him drop out of the tourney because he's out of top 8 because of this as well. How unfortunate you didn't join, there were 7 Dredge players and 5 Reanimators?

Yikes... it might have been better if your teammate had just given you the win.

May matchup versus reanimator went like this:

Game 1:

He kept a hand that lacked the combo and kept on digging for the combo. I wasn't able to Flayer combo him when I went off turn 2 but I had 2 Zombie tokens 1 8/8 Gravetroll, 2 Bridges and 1-2 Ichorids in the Gy. He entombs Sheoldred? that black creature and exhumes it. Fortunate for me I guess, if he went for Elesh Norn that's GG right there.

Game 2:

I open with Leyline of the Void. He doesn't draw another blue source for his Boomerang until I killed him. Was just lucky or I should have lost 2 games.

Seriously, he was playing Boomerang? It seems to me that you really deserved to win that match-up, given that the Reanimator player's card choices seem sub-par based on what I can gather.

vs. Stoneblade

Game 1: Don't remember but I won turn 2 with Flayer and him having Force of will with no Blue cards.

Game 2: I went DDD and he surgical extracted my Golgari Gravetroll. He slapped down a turn 2 Stoneforge, Turn 3 Batterskull, Turn 4 Jitte on the Batterskulled Germ. GG Couldn't recover from that anymore because couldn't find my Dredger or I was Dredging slow.

Game 3: I kept a rather not so explosive hand and I get beat by the same Stoneforge, Batterskull and Jitte. He kills his Stoneforge which kills my 3 Bridges and I was slow dredging. He countered my only draw spell also.

The Stoneblade match-up is one that I worry about a bit, simply because, for some reason, I've had little experience against it in the competitive environment.

Top 8 Looked like this:

Sneak Show
Maverick
RUG Delver
Stoneblade
Death and Taxes
TES
Nic Fit
Affinity

That sucks - I find it sad whenever the graveyard-centric decks are not represented in the Top 8.

Oh well, better luck for us next time. Thanks for the notes kabayan.

Cheers,
jares

[Que]

Funny video of Joseph Moreno (Que) vs John Harduvel (Harduvel) in the last round of MTGDeal's Cash tourney on 4/22/12.

Linky

I'll take this as a chance to polish up my play and stop missing Thug triggers. ;pp

[K1w1]

I saw the video and i was crying after seeing that you forgot the triggers :D You can NOT forget the triggers. ;(

[Final Fortune]

Regarding the ability to "blast through the deck", I was wondering if some of you have already had their conclusions regarding how reliable Griselbrand would be in that function (maybe in comparison to Sun Titan and others that are also able to facilitate the same line of play).

Kind Regards,
jares

I prefer Griselbrand to Sun Titan because,

1) Griselbrand is black instead of white
2) Griselbrand is a superior threat to Sun Titan considering he's bigger, evasive and has lifelink to stabilize.
3) Griselbrand's draw effect isn't reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond being in the main deck
4) Griselbrand's draw effect is more powerful
5) Griselbrand's draw effect can be triggered twice on the same turn.

Seems kind of straight forward in theory and playtesting IMO, being life dependent is kind of annoying but so is being graveyard dependent on LED/Looting, Coliseum etc.

[Godmode]

Griselbrand vs. Flayer

Wich one do you guys think it's better playing MD?

Flayer seems to be insta win (against any deck/or threat) when he hits the board, although he requires another DR to resolve and a total of 3 DR maindeck. This beeing said, when in play you can grind out games with him just based on the damage by the creatures hitting the board.


Grisel is technically one turn slower, but it only requires 2 DR maindeck and is also game over when he enters in play, although he can't get around prison cards like moat, etc. It's a more prolific creature, since he has lifelink, flying, puts a 3 turn clock on your oponent and has the amazing draw ability wich can turn the tables and get you out of deep holes or lost games.


Seems to me that it all comes down to 3 DR vs 2 DR (if you don't have a prison cards loaded meta-game). They might be both win-more cards, but that will depend alot on the meta aswell.

[Anusien]

Griselbrand is like Sun Titan and Sphinx of Lost Truths and Eternal Witness in that it helps you draw through your deck. It does not actually let you win the turn you Dread Return it unless you also have FKZ or Flayer or whatever magical happiness machine you have. They don't fulfill the same roles.

[Final Fortune]

I'd prefer 2xDread Return and 1xGriselbrand because it's 1) Space efficient 2) Black creature count 3) Not as reliant on your board state and graveyard state in order to be able to Dread Return twice for the combo finish immediately 4) reduces the impact of Surgical Extraction because it's 1 less Dread Return removed and Griselbrand doesn't care if Golgari Grave Troll was removed previously to a Surgical Extraction to incidentally have weakened the combo kill.

That 1 MD card makes a huge difference IMO, because it's the difference between the 4th Cabal Therapy, 3rd Ichorid or an extra land.

Edit: Mind Twisting the opponent with a 7/7 Flying, Lifelinker who'll draw again on the same turn or on the following turn is more often than not just as good as winning via Flayer or FKZ, the emphasis doesn't have to be on you winning immediately if you can prevent your opponent from winning on his following turn and put yourself in an overwhelming board position. Griselbrand is pretty ridiculous at doing that and people need to get it thru' their thick skulls that Cabal Therapy(s) > wasting space on Flame Kin Zealot

[Michael Keller]

I prefer Griselbrand to Sun Titan because,

1) Griselbrand is black instead of white
2) Griselbrand is a superior threat to Sun Titan considering he's bigger, evasive and has lifelink to stabilize.
3) Griselbrand's draw effect isn't reliant on Lion's Eye Diamond being in the main deck
4) Griselbrand's draw effect is more powerful
5) Griselbrand's draw effect can be triggered twice on the same turn.

Seems kind of straight forward in theory and playtesting IMO, being life dependent is kind of annoying but so is being graveyard dependent on LED/Looting, Coliseum etc.

+1.

The thing people need to ask themselves realistically is how much damage or loss of life on average they receive involuntarily by turn three. If they're losing more than thirteen, they're probably doing something wrong or have already lost. Griselbrand is just disgusting in LED Dredge. However, he is not necessarily the end all, be all of the archetype, and Sun Titan is still a perfectly viable option if people choose to play him.

Even River Kelpie can be broken in some instances. It really all depends on peoples' list.

[Anusien]

Are there any keepable dredge hands that aren't of one of these forms? Talking only about the hands you want to keep, not "Guess I keep Land + Imp + Troll + 2x blank because I don't want to go to 4."

Dredger + Faithless Looting + LED + Dredger
Dredger + LED/Putrid Imp + Faithless Looting/Careful Study/Breakthrough/Cephalid Coliseum + Rainbow land
Dredger + Faithless Looting + Rainbow land + Faithless Looting/Careful Study/Breakthrough/Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger + Careful Study + Rainbow land + Faithless Looting/Careful Study/Breakthrough/Cephalid Coliseum
Dredger + Careful Study + Cephalid Coliseum + Cephalid Coliseum/Careful Study/Breakthrough

[Izor]

Yes, actually I regularly keep hands without Dredgers. As long as you have at least two Study effects, enough Land and the potential to go nuts once you find a Dredger, you're perfectly fine.

If your hand contains at least two Lands, at least two Study effects plus an LED or Breakthrough, I always keep. Except if I have like double Narco in it as well.

Keeping hands w/o Dredgers is much easier than people think in a deck with so many Study effects. I fare very well with this strategy.

[Anusien]

Sure you can. But you don't feel amazing about it, and it's inherently a risky keep. I am looking for good, solid keeps.

[DragoFireheart]

Sure you can. But you don't feel amazing about it, and it's inherently a risky keep. I am looking for good, solid keeps.

This advice applies to the women at the bar scene by some strange coincidence.

I think Griselbrand is going to find a home in Dredge. The ability to draw cards and be able to race decks ala life link seems too good to pass up as a back-up-plan. If someone were going to run the Griselbargin, what cards would we take out?